The Forbidden Subject: The Ordination of Women

[reggieM]

Yes, we do have a different role in the Church, and I am very happy about that. I believe in obedience to the legitimate authority of the Church. The opposite of obedience is rebellion.

I agree with you and pianistclare.

I remember a priest at a retreat I went to a while back who said: “Women have the power to make men unfallen.”

Lord Jesus Christ help us men and women to more fully understand our roles!

Thank you Blessed Mother Mary for your “yes”!

Beautiful thoughts - and such a great prayer.

Only God can teach us what a man is and what a woman is - because He created us and gave us our roles. Men need to know what a woman is, distinctly feminine virtues and qualities that teach a man so much. Likewise, women need to know what a man is, and to support his growth into being a godly man. There is a big difference between a father and a mother. Not better or worse, more important or less important - but both working together as God planned it. The two shall become one.
We don’t need two fathers or two mothers. The priest is the father of the family - he is married to his bride, the church itself. That’s a huge role for women - to bring life and nurture the children of God!

 

[Rau]

…And I still can not understand why it is seen as a bad thing…

It isn’t. It is assessed as impermissible.

 

[revert_jen]

I do see a pattern in the way both men and women think about women who would like to discern the priesthood but can not, there is a belief that they are mad crazy egocentric women who want power over any sort of spiritual ‘power’

I certainly wouldn’t say they are all egocentric or mad for spiritual power, but the one quoted in the OP sounds, as I said, a bit neurotic to me because of the overreaction. How on earth has she been duped? Nobodoy would ever have told her she could be ordained a Catholic priest before, and nobody is telling her she can’t be an image of Christ now. “…everything in my life had a different meaning…” different than what?

Perhaps she’s not neurotic but just very young–anyway, she seems to me to have read something, interpreted it in the most insulting way possible (which is not the way it was intended) and then cried out, “My life is ruined!” It just seems to be an overreaction to me, and overly dramatic. However, I admit that my patience for drama in any situation is very limited.

As for women who want ortdination as Catholic prists, well if I had to describe them, I would go for “unfortunate” or “silly.” It can’t happen, and God can’t be calling them to the priesthood, even if they sincerely believe that He is doing so. So, “unfortunate” if they genuinely believe they are being called, and “silly” if they want to be priests even though they know that they have not been called.

–Jen

 

[JohnR77]

No it doesn’t. Frankly it annoys me and saddens me as to just how little Church history and Catholic theology people have even been exposed to.

God knows the difference, and so do I.
I do not need to be ordained. I have a role.
.

Thanks pianistclare.

We have to understand, that a vocation is not about me doing what I want to do.
Priesthood is not about power. A good priest only does what he sees Jesus doing.

**LETTER TO MARIANNE ON THE
ORDINATION OF WOMEN ⓒ
**
BY MAUREEN MULLINS
Introduction
What is a Priest?
What is Sacrifice?
What is a Vocation?
What is a Sacrament?
What our Lord did
Our Lord’s attitude to Women
The Church’s Tradition
What the Church has done for Women
The Exaltation of Mary
Vocation is the right of no one
The value of Tradition in the Church
The Analogy of the Sacrament of Orders.

John.

 

[pensmama87]

Thanks all for your replies, I couldn’t possible reply to all, so I picked out the ones that were best to address.
I do see a pattern in the way both men and women think about women who would like to discern the priesthood but can not, there is a belief that they are mad crazy egocentric women who want power over any sort of spiritual ‘power’

Although it has been settled according to the teaching of the church, it is still an interesting topic to me and others.

To be told as a women I could not image Christ as a minister because I am not a man in some way reduced how I saw Christ. Then when women start with the questions, they are deemed disobedient, and feminist, and should really shut up, or go to another church.

There have been some ordination of women by bishops, though they won’t be recognised by the official church, but there does seem to be a growing move for female priests.

And I still can not understand why it is seen as a bad thing…

PS. I don’t wish to be a priestess.

I have heard of these “ordinations.”

Do you believe that these women can say the words of consecration and the bread and wine become Christ?

I don’t. Any more than a man can be a mother. He can nurture, he can love, he can be an excellent parent. But he won’t be a mother.

GEddie brings up a good point too - no, not all women become (biological) mothers. But it’s a much smaller number of men who become priests.

It seems to me in the spiritual sense that we don’t have “rights” to vocations. We are called, and that will depend on who we are. And we may want the impossible. I have heard men who were determined to not have vocations get really angry about it. And while it’s not my say, I often think it becomes fairly obvious why not in short order.

A woman, due to today’s mixed up world, could mistake a call to more involvement in ministry or teaching to priesthood. I think this could especially the case if she’s not familiar with the working of the Church or sees the priesthood in terms of human hierarchies and power struggles. (This was my mistake, at least.) And there have been times I’ve envied priests, too, which is not something I’m proud of, but there you are.

 

[Joe_5859]

It’s about the Church stating that women can not image Christ because they are not men.

If this is your primary point of contention, I think it is not necessary to be perturbed. The Church does not say that women cannot image Christ. We are all called to image Christ, whether we are a priest, a non-priest man, or a woman.

Look at John Paul II’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis or the Catechism (CCC 1577). It does not list that as the primary reason women cannot be priests.

John Paul II quotes Paul VI when he says:

She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church.

And the Catechism says:

“Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” [66] The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. [67] The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible. [68]

[66] CIC, can. 1024.
[67] Cf. Mk 3:14-19; Lk 6:12-16; 1 Tim 3:1-13; 2 Tim 1:6; Titus 1:5-9; St. Clement of Rome,* Ad Cor.* 42,4; 44,3G 1,292-293; 300.
[68] Cf. John Paul II, MD 26-27; CDF, declaration, Inter insigniores: AAS 69 (1977) 98-116.

Note what these two sources do not say. They do not say that women cannot be priests because they cannot image Christ.

One of the common theological explanations given for Jesus’ choice is that a man can more clearly represent Christ in persona Christi. But this isn’t the primary reason given by the Church for not ordaining women. Nor does it exclude the possibility that non-priests (whether male or female) can image Christ in a real, but different, way.

As Catholics, we all share in the priesthood of the faithful. This priesthood is different in kind (not just degree) from the ministerial priesthood, but it is still a real share in Christ’s priesthood.

Also, as Catholics, we all (whether male or female) can consider ourselves “sons of God.” This is an important theological and scriptural image because it was the son who received the birthright of the father. And we all (whether male or female) now share in this birthright of the Heavenly Father.

And (as has been pointed out already) we all (whether male or female) can consider ourselves the “bride of Christ.” Because we are all members of the Church who is the Bride of Christ. And we are all called to that intimate, spousal intimacy with Jesus.

So we are all called out of our comfort zone at times. But that’s okay. Jesus’ choice of men only to be his apostles and priests does not denigrate women. We have different roles. I’m a man who is not a priest. It doesn’t mean I’m not called to help build up the Church. It doesn’t mean I’m not called to imitate Christ. We all are.

 

[simpleas]

Source for the ordinations?

And for the “growing move?”

It would be interesting to know who was included in the “poll.”

This is the piece I recently read which prompted me to ask other Catholic women for their thoughts :

womenpriests.org/called/pieper1.asp

 

[simpleas]

Someone said once, that if males had to deal with childbirth, opioids would be sold in vending machines

True, but far more do than men become priests.

There is no right to ordination, therefore the issue of ‘fairness’ rings hollow.

ICXC NIKA

Did I say women had the right…

 

[Irishmom2]

This is the piece I recently read which prompted me to ask other Catholic women for their thoughts :

womenpriests.org/called/pieper1.asp

You don’t think I am going to read all of that, do you?

That doesn’t answer my question either.

A bunch of women call call themselves priests, but that doesn’t make it so.

 

[simpleas]

It isn’t. It is assessed as impermissible.

Impermissible by humans.

I’m not 100% sure God would not allow priestess’ just because they would be women, we are all made in Gods image and likeness, male and female…

 

[simpleas]

You don’t think I am going to read all of that, do you?

That doesn’t answer my question either.

A bunch of women call call themselves priests, but that doesn’t make it so.

That is fine, if you have no real interest in what I am talking about that’s your call.

 

[simpleas]

If this is your primary point of contention, I think it is not necessary to be perturbed. The Church does not say that women cannot image Christ. We are all called to image Christ, whether we are a priest, a non-priest man, or a woman.

Look at John Paul II’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis or the Catechism (CCC 1577). It does not list that as the primary reason women cannot be priests.

John Paul II quotes Paul VI when he says:

She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church.

And the Catechism says:

“Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.” [66] The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. [67] The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible. [68]

[66] CIC, can. 1024.
[67] Cf. Mk 3:14-19; Lk 6:12-16; 1 Tim 3:1-13; 2 Tim 1:6; Titus 1:5-9; St. Clement of Rome,* Ad Cor.* 42,4; 44,3G 1,292-293; 300.
[68] Cf. John Paul II, MD 26-27; CDF, declaration, Inter insigniores: AAS 69 (1977) 98-116.

Note what these two sources do not say. They do not say that women cannot be priests because they cannot image Christ.

One of the common theological explanations given for Jesus’ choice is that a man can more clearly represent Christ in persona Christi. But this isn’t the primary reason given by the Church for not ordaining women. Nor does it exclude the possibility that non-priests (whether male or female) can image Christ in a real, but different, way.

As Catholics, we all share in the priesthood of the faithful. This priesthood is different in kind (not just degree) from the ministerial priesthood, but it is still a real share in Christ’s priesthood.

Also, as Catholics, we all (whether male or female) can consider ourselves “sons of God.” This is an important theological and scriptural image because it was the son who received the birthright of the father. And we all (whether male or female) now share in this birthright of the Heavenly Father.

And (as has been pointed out already) we all (whether male or female) can consider ourselves the “bride of Christ.” Because we are all members of the Church who is the Bride of Christ. And we are all called to that intimate, spousal intimacy with Jesus.

So we are all called out of our comfort zone at times. But that’s okay. Jesus’ choice of men only to be his apostles and priests does not denigrate women. We have different roles. I’m a man who is not a priest. It doesn’t mean I’m not called to help build up the Church. It doesn’t mean I’m not called to imitate Christ. We all are.

I think that it does say that women cannot image Christ, from the vatican link I provided in the OP :

The Christian priesthood is therefore of a sacramental nature: the priest is a sign, the supernatural effectiveness of which comes from the ordination received, but a sign that must be perceptible18 and which the faithful must be able to recognise with ease. The whole sacramental economy is in fact based upon natural signs, on symbols imprinted on the human psychology: “Sacramental signs,” says Saint Thomas, “represent what they signify by natural resemblance.”19 The same natural resemblance is required for persons as for things: when Christ’s role in the Eucharist is to be expressed sacramentally, there would not be this “natural resemblance” which must exist between Christ and his minister if the role of Christ were not taken by a man: in such a case it would be difficult to see in the minister the image of Christ. For Christ himself was and remains a man.

Why would men see themselves as the bride of Christ?

The church is constantly expressing the difference between male and female…

 

[reggieM]

Why would men see themselves as the bride of Christ?

We are part of the spiritual body that is united to Christ, the Church - in a union closer than marriage.

 

[FJBSJ]

The topic of the ordination of women is not found in the Holy Bible. It is a Catholic tradition (the fact that I spelled tradition with a lowercase t means that it is not infallible). Women and Men obviously have different roles in life. This does not mean that they are not equal in every single way.

thegospelcoalition.org/article/single-vs-married-pastors-take-it-from-a-guy-whos-done-both-2

albertmohler.com/2011/03/25/must-a-pastor-be-married-the-new-york-times-asks-the-question/

I believe Men and Women pastors can be single or choose to be married.

One day, The Magisterium might consider this.

 

[commenter5]

The topic of the ordination of women is not found in the Holy Bible. It is a Catholic tradition (the fact that I spelled tradition with a lowercase t means that it is not infallible). Women and Men obviously have different roles in life. This does not mean that they are not equal in every single way.

thegospelcoalition.org/article/single-vs-married-pastors-take-it-from-a-guy-whos-done-both-2

albertmohler.com/2011/03/25/must-a-pastor-be-married-the-new-york-times-asks-the-question/

I believe Men and Women pastors can be single or choose to be married.

One day, The Magisterium might consider this.

To say that the will of the one true God is unchanged over history is rediculous. If you don’t believe me, get married to more than one spouse at a time, have sex with your spouse’s employees (Abram did), and loudly denounce Catholic preists as being illegitiamte because then are not related to Levi the jew. I’m pretty sure you would be condemned for that.

 

[vsedriver]

many women miss the point that the priest is ‘in persona Christi’ when presiding over the Eucharist. Christ is a MAN. It is a basic part of his human nature. To deny Christ’s masculinity is to deny Christ’s humanity.

That the ordained priesthood is limited to men is no reflection on the importance of women. But it shows how even the disciples thought as men think when they argued who among them was the greatest. Jesus corrected them by telling them not to think of leadership as men do but as God does.

Therefore different roles in the church do not mean one sex is favored over another. Not all ‘leadership’ comes from the ordained clergy. Mother Angelica has probably done as much if not more for Christ and evangelization than most priests put together.

 

[simpleas]

I have heard of these “ordinations.”

Do you believe that these women can say the words of consecration and the bread and wine become Christ?

I don’t. Any more than a man can be a mother. He can nurture, he can love, he can be an excellent parent. But he won’t be a mother.

GEddie brings up a good point too - no, not all women become (biological) mothers. But it’s a much smaller number of men who become priests.

It seems to me in the spiritual sense that we don’t have “rights” to vocations. We are called, and that will depend on who we are. And we may want the impossible. I have heard men who were determined to not have vocations get really angry about it. And while it’s not my say, I often think it becomes fairly obvious why not in short order.

A woman, due to today’s mixed up world, could mistake a call to more involvement in ministry or teaching to priesthood. I think this could especially the case if she’s not familiar with the working of the Church or sees the priesthood in terms of human hierarchies and power struggles. (This was my mistake, at least.) And there have been times I’ve envied priests, too, which is not something I’m proud of, but there you are.

I’ve never witness any women priests saying the words of consecration.
When they do, they are doing what Jesus told us to do.
They don’t seem to be women who want to be men, they don’t become a man while doing it, but they can act in persona Christi because male and female are made in the image of God.

Yes, a man can not become a mother, that is because he would be the father (biologically ) speaking.

I don’t know why then that some Catholic bishops ordain women, they obviously believe women can become sacramental ministers just as men can.

 

[simpleas]

many women miss the point that the priest is ‘in persona Christi’ when presiding over the Eucharist. Christ is a MAN. It is a basic part of his human nature. To deny Christ’s masculinity is to deny Christ’s humanity.

That the ordained priesthood is limited to men is no reflection on the importance of women. But it shows how even the disciples thought as men think when they argued who among them was the greatest. Jesus corrected them by telling them not to think of leadership as men do but as God does.

Therefore different roles in the church do not mean one sex is favored over another. Not all ‘leadership’ comes from the ordained clergy. Mother Angelica has probably done as much if not more for Christ and evangelization than most priests put together.

From above :

But it shows how even the disciples thought as men think when they argued who among them was the greatest. Jesus corrected them by telling them not to think of leadership as men do but as God does.

That men are the leaders, which is basically the same thing…

 

[Irishmom2]

I don’t know why then that some Catholic bishops ordain women, they obviously believe women can become sacramental ministers just as men can.

What Catholic bishops have ordained women?

Again, I ask for where you are getting this from?

 

[Joe_5859]

What Catholic bishops have ordained women?

Again, I ask for where you are getting this from?

She’s probably referring to the origin of the whole “Roman Catholic Women Priests” movement with the “Danube 7”. They assert that their original band of “women priests” were ordained by an actual bishop with valid apostolic succession.

His identity was a secret for a time, but Wikipedia identifies him as Rómulo Antonio Braschi. He was a Catholic priest who eventually left to join the “Independent Catholic Church” in Argentina, where he was eventually ordained a bishop by another bishop who is not in communion with Rome. So, it appears he is a valid bishop, but definitely not in communion with Rome.

They put this forward as evidence that their illicit ordinations are still valid. They are mistaken. Simply because a valid bishop went through the motions doesn’t mean they actually became priests. But they (of course) do not see it that way.