The Forbidden Subject: The Ordination of Women

[simpleas]

But the issue (which recently has had a big to-do in mainstream media, even though absolutely nothing has changed) isn’t that the Church says that wheat is valid, it’s that you can’t substitute other things for the bread. You can’t consecrate pizza and beer. It has to be wheat bread and grape wine. You can lower the amount of gluten, or the amount of alcohol, but they’re still wheat bread and grape wine. The Church can’t say that other things can be the Eucharist. It’s not possible. No bread, no wine - no Jesus.

Do you contend that this is also something the Church can change, but simply refuses to?

No because I am talking about human beings.

 

[simpleas]

Correct. Do you think the Church has authority without limit? Could marry man to man? Could baptise a dog?. Could override divine law. Etc. I think there are limits.

You do come up with some bizarre comparisons…

 

[Rau]

You do come up with some bizarre comparisons…

Perhaps, but they make clear that a lack of authority to ordain women is not the one and only instance of an authority the Church does not possess.

 

[Rau]

…I believe all of you must have meant all, not just the twelve at the table, and there would have been women among his dudciples…

I did not say the Twelve were the only ones to eat the flesh of the sin of man. In fact we know from scripture that all are called. The question is - who stands in for Christ in the sacrifice?

 

[simpleas]

I did not say the Twelve were the only ones to eat the flesh of the sin of man. In fact we know from scripture that all are called. The question is - who stands in for Christ in the sacrifice?

You asked this question :

Originally Posted by Rau View Post
Did he tell all his followers to “do this”, or did he say that to the Twelve?

I gave an answer, which you said to re-read the bible…

Who stands in for Christ? The person who is ordained to, which should not be limited to the male, as humans both male and female, are created in the image and likeness of Christ, and should be spiritually aware of that.

 

[Rau]

You asked this question :

I gave an answer, which you said to re-read the bible…

Who stands in for Christ? The person who is ordained to, which should not be limited to the male, as humans both male and female, are created in the image and likeness of Christ, and should be spiritually aware of that.

The “this” I was referring to was precisely “to stand in for Christ”. And who should be ordained? Apparently what you see so clearly has escaped the Magisterium since the beginning. How can that be?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Male and female are ordained at baptism for the task of being the Gospel to all mankind.

Out of the ranks of these ordained, a select few males are chosen to serve as those who celebrate the Sacred Mysteries; other men chosen as Servants of the community; and a select from among them as Overseers and guardians of the Faith.

As has been pointed out earlier, none of the above chosen for their service, as selected in isolation. If not for the God ordained women in their lives - mothers, sisters, wives and daughters - they would neither be called, nor worth calling. That is the greater calling, the “ordained service” is the lesser calling. We, as earth focused tunnel visioned people - tend to look at it in a inverted manner. The priest is seen in front, the priest makes decisions, the priest images Christ, etc. Sure he does. But the mother in giving forth and sustaining life images God much more directly and importantly. The wife carrying her priest husbands emotional toil and raising their children while he stays up all nite counseling the deceased’s children does something equally, if not at times much more spiritually effective.

 

[simpleas]

Perhaps, but they make clear that a lack of authority to ordain women is not the one and only instance of an authority the Church does not possess.

I think the church has changed a few things that may have been seen as having no authority to do so, heck there maybe lot’s of things since the 2,000 years have past.

Why did the church authorise the allowing of women on the altar, before then, women were not permitted, nor could they serve on the altar.

The early church had woman participate as deaconess for female baptism, so that needed authorising, seems they just don’t like the idea of female ministers, and not because God didn’t choose women among the 12, but because it’s up to the authority to decided, which clearly isn’t God in this matter.

The church, if it wanted to be clear about priests being only men, it should have remained men only in all it’s Ministry and not allowed women to participate at all…

 

[simpleas]

The “this” I was referring to was precisely “to stand in for Christ”. And who should be ordained? Apparently what you see so clearly has escaped the Magisterium since the beginning. How can that be?

It doesn’t take a genius to work that out.

And you haven’t addressed some of what I was referring too, just changed it to another question.

 

[Rau]

I think the church has changed a few things that may have been seen as having no authority to do so, heck there maybe lot’s of things since the 2,000 years have past.

Why did the church authorise the allowing of women on the altar, before then, women were not permitted, nor could they serve on the altar.

The early church had woman participate as deaconess for female baptism, so that needed authorising, seems they just don’t like the idea of female ministers, and not because God didn’t choose women among the 12, but because it’s up to the authority to decided, which clearly isn’t God in this matter.

The church, if it wanted to be clear about priests being only men, it should have remained men only in all it’s Ministry and not allowed women to participate at all…

Yes, many things have changed. No more veils and hats required in Church. So what? The Church never asserted it lacked an authority to vary that rule, nor to have women altar servers. In the latter case, it simply chose to prefer male servers for utilitarian reasons.

Nowhere does the Church state it just “doesn’t like the idea” of female priests - that is just your own somewhat cynical and bitter personal take on the “real” motivation.

Rather, the Church expresses, in adamant terms, the position that it is compelled to ordain only men. If you don’t accept this; if you believe the motivation is altogether something different - which is the clear implication of your post - then you make a case to accept nothing the Church has to say if it conflicts with your own judgement in the matter.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, many things have changed. No more veils and hats required in Church. So what? The Church never asserted it lacked an authority to vary that rule, nor to have women altar servers. In the latter case, it simply chose to prefer male servers for utilitarian reasons.

Nowhere does the Church state it just “doesn’t like the idea” of female priests - that is just your own somewhat cynical and bitter personal take on the “real” motivation.

Rather, the Church expresses, in adamant terms, the position that it is compelled to ordain only men. If you don’t accept this; if you believe the motivation is altogether something different - which is the clear implication of your post - then you make a case to accept nothing the Church has to say if it conflicts with your own judgement in the matter.

I said it seems not to like the idea, when one looks at the historical evidence on matters pertaining to females being allowed to participate in the church, one would see the pattern emerging…

You can call me cynical and bitter, and avoid parts of my posts which you seemed not to reply too.

Enjoy your day.

 

[simpleas]

Male and female are ordained at baptism for the task of being the Gospel to all mankind.

Out of the ranks of these ordained, a select few males are chosen to serve as those who celebrate the Sacred Mysteries; other men chosen as Servants of the community; and a select from among them as Overseers and guardians of the Faith.

As has been pointed out earlier, none of the above chosen for their service, as selected in isolation. If not for the God ordained women in their lives - mothers, sisters, wives and daughters - they would neither be called, nor worth calling. That is the greater calling, the “ordained service” is the lesser calling. We, as earth focused tunnel visioned people - tend to look at it in a inverted manner. The priest is seen in front, the priest makes decisions, the priest images Christ, etc. Sure he does. But the mother in giving forth and sustaining life images God much more directly and importantly. The wife carrying her priest husbands emotional toil and raising their children while he stays up all nite counseling the deceased’s children does something equally, if not at times much more spiritually effective.

For me it’s not earth focused, it’s spiritually focused.

We have posted about women being mothers etc, thanks.

It just seems odd that women are denied the priesthood because of their gender.

But I have my answer from at least a few women who post on here, they are not concerned that the church views them differently from men when it comes to their spiritual ability.

Thanks.

 

[jmcrae]

If that is true then no-one since Christ’s sacrifice would be born with original sin.

The graces of the Cross are transmitted to us by means of the Sacraments, which do indeed cleanse us from all sin - Baptism, the first of the Sacraments, washes away both Original and actual sin.

We don’t have access to Christ on the Cross without His Church; nor without worthy participation in His Sacraments. This is in order to respect our free will.

Nor is this anything new - the Jews became His People by means of rites and ceremonies that He set up for them, and no one ever became Jewish without them.

 

[pensmama87]

For me it’s not earth focused, it’s spiritually focused.

We have posted about women being mothers etc, thanks.

It just seems odd that women are denied the priesthood because of their gender.

But I have my answer from at least a few women who post on here, they are not concerned that the church views them differently from men when it comes to their spiritual ability.

Thanks.

The issue as I see it is that you wish to rank when there isn’t (or should not be) ranking, or assert that it is about value or ability when it is not.

Men and women are not interchangeable.

 

[jmcrae]

For me it’s not earth focused, it’s spiritually focused.

We have posted about women being mothers etc, thanks.

It just seems odd that women are denied the priesthood because of their gender.

But I have my answer from at least a few women who post on here, they are not concerned that the church views them differently from men when it comes to their spiritual ability.

Thanks.

It has absolutely nothing to do with ability. The priesthood is a Sacrament, which means it has correct matter and form.

It’s a bit like a ham sandwich crying because it doesn’t get to be an egg salad. We all have our roles to play in the divine economy. Just because you don’t get to do one thing doesn’t mean you lack ability, or that you are “less than.”

If the priesthood were only for women, we would be crying about how demanding and oppressive it is; let’s face it. I have no idea why women want to be priests; it’s low pay and constant demands, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It’s not actually all that glamorous.

 

[reggieM]

But I have my answer from at least a few women who post on here, they are not concerned that the church views them differently from men when it comes to their spiritual ability.
.

That is a false understanding. It’s not spiritual ability.
St. Teresa of Avila, St. Catherine of Siena - both doctors of the church.

Our Lady is the greatest of all saints.

It makes me wonder where you learned about Catholicism?

 

[reggieM]

If the priesthood were only for women, we would be crying about how demanding and oppressive it is; let’s face it. I have no idea why women want to be priests; it’s low pay and constant demands, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It’s not actually all that glamorous.

I wonder the same thing.
But some people want power to validate themselves or wield it over others (priesthood is humble service, not power).
Others find forbidden fruit to be very attractive, even though they actually wouldn’t want it if they had it.

 

[Brendan_64]

God has no gender.
Tuxedo Mark;14790316:

Female priests need to be ordained, like, yesterday. It is inherently discriminatory to say men can be priests, and women can’t.

And if the pope won’t do it, the local parishes need to take matters into their own hands.

I don’t think God is subservient to any interpretations of man-made laws (be they about discrimination or anything else). Women cannot become priests, this doctrine has been settled. It is an impossibility. Ordination Sacerdotalis makes this clear.

And parishes do not have the authority to ordain anyone. The priesthood is not simply a job, the sacrament of ordination comes from God. Women priests are an impossibility.

Is it unfair that men cannot give birth? Is thst a case of unfair discrimination? No, that is simply the reality, just as is the reality that only men can become priests.

Christ was a man, that was integral to his human nature, a woman cannot act in Persona Christi bevause she doesn’t share Christ’s male nature.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I think the church has changed a few things that may have been seen as having no authority to do so, heck there maybe lot’s of things since the 2,000 years have past.

such as?

Why did the church authorise the allowing of women on the altar, before then, women were not permitted, nor could they serve on the altar.

not true, in closed convents women in some orders served in roles as servers even in the Tridentine and Greek Liturgies.

The early church had woman participate as deaconess for female baptism, so that needed authorising, seems they just don’t like the idea of female ministers, and not because God didn’t choose women among the 12, but because it’s up to the authority to decided, which clearly isn’t God in this matter.

Deaconess still exist in some form.

The church, if it wanted to be clear about priests being only men, it should have remained men only in all it’s Ministry and not allowed women to participate at all…

all or nothing? If you don’t like the meal I prepared, your only option is to starve?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Female priests need to be ordained, like, yesterday. It is inherently discriminatory to say men can be priests, and women can’t.

And if the pope won’t do it, the local parishes need to take matters into their own hands.

There are already groups doing this. They are generally called protestants. If you’ve already joined them in spirit and in mind, why not physically as well?