The Forbidden Subject: The Ordination of Women

[Irishmom2]

She’s probably referring to the origin of the whole “Roman Catholic Women Priests” movement with the “Danube 7”. They assert that their original band of “women priests” were ordained by an actual bishop with valid apostolic succession.

His identity was a secret for a time, but Wikipedia identifies him as Rómulo Antonio Braschi. He was a Catholic priest who eventually left to join the “Independent Catholic Church” in Argentina, where he was eventually ordained a bishop by another bishop who is not in communion with Rome. So, it appears he is a valid bishop, but definitely not in communion with Rome.

They put this forward as evidence that their illicit ordinations are still valid. They are mistaken. Simply because a valid bishop went through the motions doesn’t mean they actually became priests. But they (of course) do not see it that way.

Thanks, Joe.

Just as I thought.

From the Danube link:

“The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and …] this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

— Pope John Paul II, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, Number 4[6]

 

[Joe_5859]

I think that it does say that women cannot image Christ, from the vatican link I provided in the OP :

It does not use those words, though. It says there would not be a “natural resemblance.”

I think you are reading into it more than is stated. This does not somehow mean that there is something intrinsically inferior to women or that they lack the capacity to connect with Jesus or to model his life to the world around them.

I’d suggest reading documents like Mulieris Dignitatem or even John Paul II’s Theology of the Body to see what the Church really believes and teaches. Women are not “second class citizens” simply because they cannot be ordained.

Let me ask you a question. I understand that you believe that women should be ordained. Do you believe that the Church can or will ever do so? John Paul II states things pretty clearly that women cannot be ordained as priests. And the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith later backed him up and said that this teaching was something that is to be held “definitively and by all.” So how is this anything other than an act of wishful thinking—desiring something that can never actually happen?

 

[LilyM]

I guaruntee anyone who hold these veiws will be mocked 200 years from now the same as those who defended colonialism and earth-centered-solar-system-ism.

They mock us already for viewing marriage as an indissoluble sacramental union also. Heck, we are mocked simply because we believe in God and Christ.

Must say I admire your chutzpah. God (not time or majority vote) will reveal what is true and right.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Impermissible by humans.

I’m not 100% sure God would not allow priestess’ just because they would be women, we are all made in Gods image and likeness, male and female…

God has cut through all of that by the simple expedient (cf Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) of telling us that the Church has no authority to ordain women.

As you might have seen in my semi-jocular post, sacraments (of which Holy Orders is one) depend on valid matter.

Now to the ‘logical human mind’, it would seem perfectly right and fair for God not to insist on the Eucharist being confected with wheat (gluten) bread and grape wine. Think of the celiacs! Think of the alcoholics! Think of the poor peoples who don’t grow wheat! Why, the LOGICAL thing for God to do is allow the Eucharist to be confected in a way which ‘suits’ humanity in a given place and time. AmIright here?

Same with marriage. In our tolerant society, when it is legal, when it’s all about LUVVVV, why can’t two men who love each other marry? Why wouldn’t God allow it?

But the Church has no authority to confect the Eucharist except through wheat bread and grape wine. The Church has no authority to exercise the sacrament of Matrimony between two men or between two women, but only through one man and one woman.

So why is it so hard for people to accept Holy Orders as applying to men when The Church has no authority to ordain women?

We don’t have to explain why. We have to accept that God has His reasons for wheat bread and wine for Eucharist, male and female for marriage, men for priesthood. . .water for baptism.

 

[Joe_5859]

God has cut through all of that by the simple expedient (cf Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) of telling us that the Church has no authority to ordain women.

As you might have seen in my semi-jocular post, sacraments (of which Holy Orders is one) depend on valid matter.

Now to the ‘logical human mind’, it would seem perfectly right and fair for God not to insist on the Eucharist being confected with wheat (gluten) bread and grape wine. Think of the celiacs! Think of the alcoholics! Think of the poor peoples who don’t grow wheat! Why, the LOGICAL thing for God to do is allow the Eucharist to be confected in a way which ‘suits’ humanity in a given place and time. AmIright here?

Same with marriage. In our tolerant society, when it is legal, when it’s all about LUVVVV, why can’t two men who love each other marry? Why wouldn’t God allow it?

But the Church has no authority to confect the Eucharist except through wheat bread and grape wine. The Church has no authority to exercise the sacrament of Matrimony between two men or between two women, but only through one man and one woman.

So why is it so hard for people to accept Holy Orders as applying to men when The Church has no authority to ordain women?

We don’t have to explain why. We have to accept that God has His reasons for wheat bread and wine for Eucharist, male and female for marriage, men for priesthood. . .water for baptism.

Good point. Sure, we can undertake theological reflections on the why. We can trace why it makes sense for the Eucharist to be wheat bread and grape wine or for Baptism to use water in light of Scripture and the symbolic value. But, ultimately, we do it because that’s what God gave us, not because we cleverly figured it out on our own.

 

[Rau]

Impermissible by humans…

Assessed as impermissible. Who would you have make the assessment - the Magisterium, or ?

 

[Rau]

I’ve never witness any women priests saying the words of consecration.
When they do, they are doing what Jesus told us to do.

Did he tell all his followers to “do this”, or did he say that to the Twelve?

 

[pianistclare]

Can’t believe that one person has kept this thread going for so long.

Some people simply don’t believe that the Church is right about things that matter in our church.
These are the same people that don’t feel it necessary to stop at a red light every time.

Meh.

 

[simpleas]

What Catholic bishops have ordained women?

Again, I ask for where you are getting this from?

arcwp.org/en/news-release/

We give thanks for each other in our Roman Catholic Women Priests Movement who, since 2002, are living God’s call in a renewed priestly ministry that welcomes the people of God to celebrate sacraments in inclusive faith communities. We have grown from seven brave women ordained on the Danube in 2002, to approximately 240 internationally in Europe, North America, South America, Asia and Africa.

“With Mary, of the Magnificat,” Bishop Bridget Mary Meehan writes, “we pray that justice will triumph over oppression everywhere and that our institutional church will no longer discriminate against women by prohibiting ordination. On this World Day of Prayer for Women’s Ordination, we join in solidarity with our sisters and brothers who advocate for women priests and work for equality in the Roman Catholic Church. We rejoice that for fifteen years, women priests have been leading the way toward justice and equality in the Roman Catholic Church.”

 

[simpleas]

Can’t believe that one person has kept this thread going for so long.

Some people simply don’t believe that the Church is right about things that matter in our church.
These are the same people that don’t feel it necessary to stop at a red light every time.

Meh.

One person? People have participated by their own will, I’ve not made them.

And you do not know me, so please don’t assume anything…

 

[Irishmom2]

arcwp.org/en/news-release/

We give thanks for each other in our Roman Catholic Women Priests Movement who, since 2002, are living God’s call in a renewed priestly ministry that welcomes the people of God to celebrate sacraments in inclusive faith communities. We have grown from seven brave women ordained on the Danube in 2002, to approximately 240 internationally in Europe, North America, South America, Asia and Africa.

“With Mary, of the Magnificat,” Bishop Bridget Mary Meehan writes, “we pray that justice will triumph over oppression everywhere and that our institutional church will no longer discriminate against women by prohibiting ordination. On this World Day of Prayer for Women’s Ordination, we join in solidarity with our sisters and brothers who advocate for women priests and work for equality in the Roman Catholic Church. We rejoice that for fifteen years, women priests have been leading the way toward justice and equality in the Roman Catholic Church.”

So, the make believe priests now have make believe bishops to ordain more make believe women priests. They are a joke and not actually part of the True Church.

 

[simpleas]

God has cut through all of that by the simple expedient (cf Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) of telling us that the Church has no authority to ordain women.

As you might have seen in my semi-jocular post, sacraments (of which Holy Orders is one) depend on valid matter.

Now to the ‘logical human mind’, it would seem perfectly right and fair for God not to insist on the Eucharist being confected with wheat (gluten) bread and grape wine. Think of the celiacs! Think of the alcoholics! Think of the poor peoples who don’t grow wheat! Why, the LOGICAL thing for God to do is allow the Eucharist to be confected in a way which ‘suits’ humanity in a given place and time. AmIright here?

Same with marriage. In our tolerant society, when it is legal, when it’s all about LUVVVV, why can’t two men who love each other marry? Why wouldn’t God allow it?

But the Church has no authority to confect the Eucharist except through wheat bread and grape wine. The Church has no authority to exercise the sacrament of Matrimony between two men or between two women, but only through one man and one woman.

So why is it so hard for people to accept Holy Orders as applying to men when The Church has no authority to ordain women?

We don’t have to explain why. We have to accept that God has His reasons for wheat bread and wine for Eucharist, male and female for marriage, men for priesthood. . .water for baptism.

Some how explaining why bread is a valid matter, but the female matter isn’t valid is kind of strange…

The church has authority to many things, just not ordain women…

 

[simpleas]

Did he tell all his followers to “do this”, or did he say that to the Twelve?

I don’t know, because I think during the Mass the priest says… to his disciples, do this,

not the Apostles.

 

[Rau]

…, “we pray that justice will triumph over oppression everywhere and that our institutional church will no longer discriminate against women by prohibiting ordination…"

OMG - imagine calling up the “d” word.

What’s next to be labeled discrimination, marriage restricted to man+woman? Oh, wait - that’s been claimed too.

 

[Rau]

I don’t know…

Re-read the Bible?

 

[pensmama87]

Some how explaining why bread is a valid matter, but the female matter isn’t valid is kind of strange…

The church has authority to many things, just not ordain women…

But the issue (which recently has had a big to-do in mainstream media, even though absolutely nothing has changed) isn’t that the Church says that wheat is valid, it’s that you can’t substitute other things for the bread. You can’t consecrate pizza and beer. It has to be wheat bread and grape wine. You can lower the amount of gluten, or the amount of alcohol, but they’re still wheat bread and grape wine. The Church can’t say that other things can be the Eucharist. It’s not possible. No bread, no wine - no Jesus.

Do you contend that this is also something the Church can change, but simply refuses to?

 

[MaryT777]

What Catholic bishops have ordained women?

Again, I ask for where you are getting this from?

There are no Catholic women that are priests that are in communion with the Bishop of Rome nor Bishops that do so. You are mistaken. There are Internet sites of course that claim to have done so but look closely at their info and they are not truly Catholic in sense that they claim to agree with the Magisterium and the Pope as definitive to being Catholic

Mary.

 

[GEddie]

Did I say women had the right…

No, but where there is no right, fairness ceases to be an issue.

It is no more “unfair” for a man to be ordained and a woman not, than for Donald Trump to own a 757, and me not.

There is no right to own a 757, just as there is no right to be ordained.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Rau]

Some how explaining why bread is a valid matter, but the female matter isn’t valid is kind of strange…

The church has authority to many things, just not ordain women…

Correct. Do you think the Church has authority without limit? Could marry man to man? Could baptise a dog?. Could override divine law. Etc. I think there are limits.

 

[simpleas]

Re-read the Bible?

Well in Matthew it say’s :

When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve…

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his** disciples**, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Also, and where I would look to before the bible, and where I would have heard it before ever reading the bible as a child, the Mass says :

On the day before he was to suffer he took bread in his holy and venerable hands, and with eyes raised to heaven to you, O God, his almighty Father, giving you thanks he said the blessing, broke the bread and gave it to his disciples, saying:

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT: FOR THIS IS MY BODY WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

I believe all of you must have meant all, not just the twelve at the table, and there would have been women among his disciples…

But then, none of us was there…