The four Marian dogmas

[newbie1234]

Question from an ex catholic:
If I read my Bible (luke1:47) and it teaches me that Mary could not be without sin because she needed a Savior, and it challenges my belief in the immaculate conception, so I can no longer be part of the Catholic church because I don’t accept all of its doctrine, and I cannot then get into heaven, should I disregard the verse to secure my place in Heaven?

 

[jmcrae]

Doesn’t sound like to me that the pope woke up and decided to make up something about Mary but that it was a belief held from early Christians.

Then they forgot to put it down in the most important source…the written Word of God. How could they be so silly as to forget to do such a vital thing as that?

Since not many people could afford to buy books back then, the most important source was not the written word, but rather, the preaching at Mass. We see in the Catacombs where they worshipped that there are images and graffitti that show that they knew about Mary’s sinlessness and perpetual virginity right from the very beginning.

 

[jmcrae]

Question from an ex catholic:
If I read my Bible (luke1:47) and it teaches me that Mary could not be without sin because she needed a Savior, and it challenges my belief in the immaculate conception, so I can no longer be part of the Catholic church because I don’t accept all of its doctrine, and I cannot then get into heaven, should I disregard the verse to secure my place in Heaven?

Unlike most of us, Mary was saved from sin by never being allowed to commit sin in the first place. She did not do this under her own power; it was God’s grace in her that made this possible. God is therefore still her saviour, even though she never sinned.

In any case, what is required to go to Heaven is to be in a relationship with God. We don’t go to Hell for committing sin; we go to Hell for not being in a relationship with God. When we commit sin, it is because we don’t have a proper relationship with God, but we were going to go to Hell before we committed the sin; sin is just the earthly consequence of not having a relationship with God - Hell is the eternal consequence, regardless of whether we sinned on earth, or not.

Mary was gifted to have a relationship with God right from the moment of her conception. Most of us have to wait until we receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

 

[MilesXpisti]

Question from an ex catholic:
If I read my Bible (luke1:47) and it teaches me that Mary could not be without sin because she needed a Savior, and it challenges my belief in the immaculate conception, so I can no longer be part of the Catholic church because I don’t accept all of its doctrine, and I cannot then get into heaven, should I disregard the verse to secure my place in Heaven?

shakes head That is precisely the point. The Immaculate Conception does not teach that Mary was born sinless by her own merit, as were our first parents, Adam and Eve. Rather, she was, at the very moment of conception, “saved” from original sin by the merits of Jesus in anticipation. That is to say, she too had a savior and He was the Son born of her flesh, who prevented gave her everlasting grace from the moment of her conception. Why should she have had this advantage? What made her so special? She bore the Christ. She was the bearer of the New Covenant, the Word and Law that came into time and was given flesh and dwelt among men. And like the Ark of the old law, which was hewn of the finest wood and overlayed with the purest gold and untouched by men, so too was Mary made sinless, Ark of the New and Everlasting Covenant.

 

[calchiquita]

Question from an ex catholic:
If I read my Bible (luke1:47) and it teaches me that Mary could not be without sin because she needed a Savior, and it challenges my belief in the immaculate conception, so I can no longer be part of the Catholic church because I don’t accept all of its doctrine, and I cannot then get into heaven, should I disregard the verse to secure my place in Heaven?

I don’t think anyone is asking you to disregard the verse. The fact that Mary needed a Savior is part of Catholic doctine.

I used to be a Protestant. I think that they think of God as too small sometimes. God is not bound by time and he is omnipotent. I don’t find it a stretch that he could have used Christ’s saving work on the cross and saved Mary at the moment of her conception to make her a fitting vessel for the Word of God.

 

[newbie1234]

Unlike most of us, Mary was saved from sin by never being allowed to commit sin in the first place. She did not do this under her own power; it was God’s grace in her that made this possible. God is therefore still her saviour, even though she never sinned.

In any case, what is required to go to Heaven is to be in a relationship with God. We don’t go to Hell for committing sin; we go to Hell for not being in a relationship with God. When we commit sin, it is because we don’t have a proper relationship with God, but we were going to go to Hell before we committed the sin; sin is just the earthly consequence of not having a relationship with God - Hell is the eternal consequence, regardless of whether we sinned on earth, or not.

Mary was gifted to have a relationship with God right from the moment of her conception. Most of us have to wait until we receive the Sacrament of Baptism.

So somehow you know Mary never even had a sinful thought in her head.?
A simple relationship with God will not get you into heaven. Satan has a relationship with God, he is not getting in.
We must accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and repent of our sins to get into heaven. A simple relationship will not suffice. Mary needed a a Savior because she was covered under the sin of Adam and she was a sinner Rom3:23

 

[vince2paul]

may be I missed out, but I’m surprised that no one use Genesis 3:15

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.”

This is a reference to Jesus Christ conquering Satan. and Jesus is the seed of Mary. This is the only scripture where it mentioned the woman’s seed, not the man’s seed, it’s because she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Therefore,
the woman here is referring to Mary

God said that He will put enmity between the woman and satan. Enmity means the hostility between enemies.
If Mary sins, can you say that there’s enmity between them?
If God says there’s enmity, how can we say that Mary sins?

By sinning, Mary would be in the Satan side, therefore there’d be no enmity between them.

 

[newbie1234]

I don’t think anyone is asking you to disregard the verse. The fact that Mary needed a Savior is part of Catholic doctine.

I used to be a Protestant. I think that they think of God as too small sometimes. God is not bound by time and he is omnipotent. I don’t find it a stretch that he could have used Christ’s saving work on the cross and saved Mary at the moment of her conception to make her a fitting vessel for the Word of God.

We know Jesus was sinless because He had to be unblemished. Rom 3:23 states all have sinned. It doesn’t say all except Mary have sinned. Furthermore ot prophecy states He will be born of a Virgin not a sinless virgin.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Hoosier, the question was, “Must Catholics believe this?” I answered it truthfully from the Catholic Church’s standpoint. And you started this angry response about proving it and I am my own pope. If you are Catholic, then you are not in union with the church. If you are non-Catholic, I don’t see why my response would conjure up such ire.

You have told us many times here that you only believe in one of the four dogmas. You have reasoned for yourself why you believe that. Because it’s not in the Bible. Neither are a lot of things but that doesn’t mean they are not truth. Frankly, I am tired of the Sola Scriptura argument. I guess we will have to eventually answer to God some day. And I am very comfortable with my belief. The reason? Because the original Christian Church started by the Apostles tells me. I’m not exactly sure how you will answer. Because it is neither in the Bible, Traditional, nor documented.

God Bless

I am sorry; I must correct you. The Catholic Church was not founded by the apostles. The Catholic Church is the original Church explicitly founded by Jesus as written down in Sacred Scripture when Jesus selected Peter, the first Pope, to feed His sheep, and gave him explicit authority to bind and loose.

Simply put, if we follow Jesus we should join His Church, the one traced to Peter His chosen Church leader.

 

[calchiquita]

We know Jesus was sinless because He had to be unblemished. Rom 3:23 states all have sinned. It doesn’t say all except Mary have sinned. Furthermore ot prophecy states He will be born of a Virgin not a sinless virgin.

Romans 3:23 doesn’t say all except Jesus have sinned either, but you accept that. OT prophecy states He will be born of a young woman.

 

[jmcrae]

So somehow you know Mary never even had a sinful thought in her head.?

That’s what “full of grace” means. The Bible says that the Angel said to Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” Do you believe the Bible?

A simple relationship with God will not get you into heaven. Satan has a relationship with God, he is not getting in.

No, Satan does not have a relationship with God.

He believes the truth about God, and he knows Jesus better than you or I ever will during this lifetime, but he does not have a relationship with Him.

He severed his relationship with God when he elected to rebel against Him.

 

[jmcrae]

I am sorry; I must correct you. The Catholic Church was not founded by the apostles. The Catholic Church is the original Church explicitly founded by Jesus as written down in Sacred Scripture when Jesus selected Peter, the first Pope, to feed His sheep, and gave him explicit authority to bind and loose.

Thus making it One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

Simply put, if we follow Jesus we should join His Church, the one traced to Peter His chosen Church leader.

This is the bottom line. Very well put, sir!!

 

[newbie1234]

That’s what “full of grace” means. The Bible says that the Angel said to Mary, “Hail, full of grace.” Do you believe the Bible?

No, Satan does not have a relationship with God.

He believes the truth about God, and he knows Jesus better than you or I ever will during this lifetime, but he does not have a relationship with Him.

He severed his relationship with God when he elected to rebel against Him.

The enemy has a realtionship with God. It is not a LOVING relationship. But a relationship none the less. Read JOB1:7
Because someone has grace doesn’t mean they are sinless. The fact that she needed a Savior definitely indicates she was a sinner. Gods grace shines upon me, yet I am a sinner and need salvation. I may not be full of grace, but I have a little.

 

[newbie1234]

Romans 3:23 doesn’t say all except Jesus have sinned either, but you accept that. OT prophecy states He will be born of a young woman.

We know Jesus was sinless. I do not except that fact because the church fathers said it. I accept that fact because I can prove it using Gods Word.Lev4 without blemsh(among others)
I can prove Mary was a virgin Isa7:14
I Cannot prove a sinless Mary using the bible

 

[jmcrae]

The enemy has a realtionship with God. It is not a LOVING relationship. But a relationship none the less. Read JOB1:7
Because someone has grace doesn’t mean they are sinless. The fact that she needed a Savior definitely indicates she was a sinner. Gods grace shines upon me, yet I am a sinner and need salvation. I may not be full of grace, but I have a little.

If a balloon is “full of water” that means there is no air in it, right?

If Mary is “full of grace” that means that she has no room for sin in her. It’s the Bible that tells us that Mary is full of grace.

 

[jmcrae]

I Cannot prove a sinless Mary using the bible

You could if you wanted to. You just don’t want to.

If Jesus is without blemish, then both of His parents (both Mary and God the Father) also have to be without blemish, so as not to pass any hereditary sins on to Him. That seems self-evident, to me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

newbie1234:

I can prove Mary was a virgin Isa7:14
I Cannot prove a sinless Mary using the bible

Can you prove that that Mary actually committed an actual sin from the Bible? Don’t say “all have sin and fall short of the glory of God” because that argument falls apart. Since babies can’t sin.

 

[Reformed1]

Can you prove that that Mary actually committed an actual sin from the Bible? Don’t say “all have sin and fall short of the glory of God” because that argument falls apart. Since babies can’t sin.

Babies do have original sin though.

From what I have heard, their is not evidence in the early church of Mary’s Immaculate Conception until well into the third century. Is this right? Also, what is the first evidence of this belief? I may be thinking of the assumption but does anyone know the earliest evidence of Mary’s immaculate conception?

 

[newbie1234]

You could if you wanted to. You just don’t want to.

If Jesus is without blemish, then both of His parents (both Mary and God the Father) also have to be without blemish, so as not to pass any hereditary sins on to Him. That seems self-evident, to me.

Under that assumption, then Mary’s mother and father would have to be sinless also. And so on and so on.
No where in the bible is this stated, conversely it does state “all have sinned”

 

[newbie1234]

Can you prove that that Mary actually committed an actual sin from the Bible? Don’t say “all have sin and fall short of the glory of God” because that argument falls apart. Since babies can’t sin.

Babies cannot sin but they have original sin.
Which is from Adam.