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newbie1234
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that is quite a stretch. Where does it say in the bible that to be full of grace means there is no room for sin. Rom5:20 where sin abounds grace abounds
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hoosierdaddy
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By sinning, Mary would be in the Satan side, therefore there’d be no enmity between them.
Not necessarily. You left the “forgiven of her sins by her Saviour” part of the equation out. That is how there would be enmity between them.
Guess what? Christians have sinned and you can bet the devil has some enmity with us as well.
Not necessarily. You left the “forgiven of her sins by her Saviour” part of the equation out. That is how there would be enmity between them.
Guess what? Christians have sinned and you can bet the devil has some enmity with us as well.
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hoosierdaddy
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**Originally Posted by jmcrae
If a balloon is “full of water” that means there is no air in it, right?
If Mary is “full of grace” that means that she has no room for sin in her. It’s the Bible that tells us that Mary is full of grace.**
The Bible also says that “all have sinned”. This includes Mary. To deny this is to ascribe divinity to her…just as I said before. Jesus was the only human who never sinned.
If a balloon is “full of water” that means there is no air in it, right?
If Mary is “full of grace” that means that she has no room for sin in her. It’s the Bible that tells us that Mary is full of grace.**
The Bible also says that “all have sinned”. This includes Mary. To deny this is to ascribe divinity to her…just as I said before. Jesus was the only human who never sinned.
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Mannyfit75
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Yes, indeed babies cannot sin so “all have sin” argument falls apart.
Now can you find me a verse in Scripture that Mary committed actual sin?
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hoosierdaddy
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**Originally Posted by jmcrae
You could if you wanted to. You just don’t want to.
If Jesus is without blemish, then both of His parents (both Mary and God the Father) also have to be without blemish, so as not to pass any hereditary sins on to Him. That seems self-evident, to me.**
Not necessarily. The Bible says that through one MAN all have sinned. The nature to sin is passed on through the man’s genes (this is a doctrine out there; if you reject it that’s your choice). THIS is why it was important for Jesus to be born of a virgin.
You could if you wanted to. You just don’t want to.
If Jesus is without blemish, then both of His parents (both Mary and God the Father) also have to be without blemish, so as not to pass any hereditary sins on to Him. That seems self-evident, to me.**
Not necessarily. The Bible says that through one MAN all have sinned. The nature to sin is passed on through the man’s genes (this is a doctrine out there; if you reject it that’s your choice). THIS is why it was important for Jesus to be born of a virgin.
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hoosierdaddy
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How so? Why should we find a Bible verse that proves Mary sinned when you’ve already been given one that you reject? Why would you even ASK for Scripture when you already rejected the Scripture you were given. It SAYS “all have sinned”. What part of that do you not understand???
Can you find me a verse in Scripture that says that Mary did not, better yet could not, sin? Waiting.
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Mannyfit75
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Because all have sin doesn’t always mean all have sin. It does not even say original sin. Original sin came out of the teaching of St. Augustine.How so? Why should we find a Bible verse that proves Mary sinned when you’ve already been given one that you reject? Why would you even ASK for Scripture when you already rejected the Scripture you were given. It SAYS “all have sinned”. What part of that do you not understand???
Can you find me a verse in Scripture that says that Mary did not, better yet could not, sin? Waiting.
Second, I not only rely on Scripture Alone like you do. I have the Magisterium of the Church and Sacred Tradition.
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Reformed1
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Manny,
Find a verse in scripture that shows that Mary was sinless.
Do you think that the bible has to list the sins or at least one sin of each and every person mentioned in scripture and if it doesn’t, it means that person is sinless?
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Reformed1
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Original sin, read Paul’s epistles.
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Mannyfit75
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Luke 1:28 - “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.Can you find me a verse in Scripture that says that Mary did not, better yet could not, sin? Waiting.
Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase “full of grace” is translated from the Greek word “kecharitomene.” This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. “Full of grace” is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.
Luke 1:38 - Mary’s fiat is “let it be done to me according to thy word.” Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.
Luke 1:42 - “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.
Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth’s use of “Mother of my Lord” (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used “Adonai” which means Lord God) is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God” which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus’ human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).
Luke 1:44 - Mary’s voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth’s womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.
Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.
Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary” prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?
Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” This is because “co” is from the Latin word “cum” which means “with.” Therefore, “co-redemptrix” means “woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word “saints” (in Hebrew “qaddiysh”) means “holy” ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.
Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary’s soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus’ suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son’s suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.
Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary’s Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.
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Mannyfit75
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The word original sin isn’t there by word itself. The idea of the original sin as the sin of Adam and Eve is implied. That is how St. Augustine come up with the phrase original sin.
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Reformed1
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Do you think all of the above verses prove Mary’s sinlessness or only Luke 1:28?
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Mannyfit75
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The doctrine of original sin is found in Summa Theologica written by St. Augustine.
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Reformed1
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While the phrase may not have been used, the doctrine is pretty plain.
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Mannyfit75
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Nope there is more.
I. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God’s Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.
1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.
1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke’s conspicuous comparison’s between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.
Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.
Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.
Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the “woman” clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
Rev 12:1 - the “woman” that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.
Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary’s offspring are those who keep God’s commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.
Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary’s offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.
Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.
Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.
Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.
Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.
Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.
Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.
The Ark is pure, and Mary is a type of Ark symbolically of the New Covenant since during the first 9 months of Jesus, she became the living tabernacle of God, Jesus Christ.
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Reformed1
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By the way, the Summa was written by Aquinas was it not?
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Reformed1
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So you believe all of these verses as well as the ones provided earlier prove the sinlessness of Mary?
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Mannyfit75
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OOps, I sometimes confuse the two.
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Mannyfit75
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Yes because it was common for early Christians to believe Mary is sinless.
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
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beckers
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You know what i find interesting…Protestants have a tradition too that they don’t like to look at…
Luther wrote on the Virginity of Mary:
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
Calvin also up held the perpetual virginity of Mary, as did the Swiss reformer, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531), who wrote:
I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin. (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424.)
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc2.htm
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc2.htm
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