M
Maximian
Guest
What three things would you name as the greatest fruits of Vatican II?
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M
Maximian
Guest
The Church has always been continually recognising new saints and would have gone on doing so with or without V2. Do you mean that V2 has led a great many people to become Sainty?
M
Maximian
Guest
Its really a subject for another thread but are there any evaluations of what the New Evangelisation consists of and what its level of success has been?
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M
Maximian
Guest
OK so speed of canonization. Good catch.
On the subject of speed, I think faster handling of annulments is an improvement.
On the subject of speed, I think faster handling of annulments is an improvement.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Well, I don’t think the Vatican bean counters are keeping tabs, but it is my impression that nearly as many have entered via a discovery of or increased love of God than have left via tepidness.
As well, the faith is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa and Asia - something that is under-reported. The number of lay apostolates - even CAF - are evidence of the New Evangelization.
As well, the faith is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa and Asia - something that is under-reported. The number of lay apostolates - even CAF - are evidence of the New Evangelization.
M
Maximian
Guest
Some developments would have happened anyway. CAF comes with technology.
It’s like the argument that the New Mass is responsible for falling numbers, which could instead be due to a general skepticism of the times.
It’s like the argument that the New Mass is responsible for falling numbers, which could instead be due to a general skepticism of the times.
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IanM
Guest
Surely this merits consideration from one who describes himself on Twitter as " Historian and theologian at Villanova U".? Lol.
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M
Maximian
Guest
You think that’s a benefit?
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IanM
Guest
Don`t you? lol (As long as we make some provision for those whose spectacles are not powerful enough)
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M
Maximian
Guest
I would not call it an explosion and I’d be cautious of an argument which can equally be used to attribute an implosion to Vatican 2
po18guy
Well-known member
The tepid are leaving and the fervent are entering. What else would you call the hundreds of thousands of baptisms yearly in Africa, for instance? The over-stuffed seminaries?
It is not as dire as you may think - as the thread title suggests.
All of this has zero to do with the council. It is the inecpt implementation of the council’s pastoral reforms. They were mistaken as a license to radically alter the Church and no such license was granted.
Anyway, others will chip in here.
It is not as dire as you may think - as the thread title suggests.
All of this has zero to do with the council. It is the inecpt implementation of the council’s pastoral reforms. They were mistaken as a license to radically alter the Church and no such license was granted.
Anyway, others will chip in here.
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StudentMI
Guest
I read a good point about the decline of Mass attendance after the Council. Those people weren’t into it and were going as a matter of custom anyway. However I don’t think that’s as good an argument as the author thinks it was.
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Catholic21
Guest
Unfortunately, we lost the Latin mass and overall reverence in the liturgy in my opinion.
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Dovekin
Guest
One factor in this was the Universal Call to Holiness in Lumen Gentium. This opened up the places where we look for holiness, leading to finding it more often.
D
Dovekin
Guest
An increased appreciation for democratic values, particularly religious freedom and the dignity of the poor.
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Genesis315
Guest
None?
Go document by document, assume good intentions for each, and the result in every case has, sadly, been the opposite.
Constitutions:
Church: understanding of the most basic truths about the Church were thrown into confusion (CDF has had to intervene at least four times to clarify the most basic truth that the Catholic Church alone is still the sole Church of Christ) and rather than being treated as a necessary “sacrament of salvation” salvation became generally presumed to be found everywhere.
Modern World: the nature of man has been thrown into more confusion than ever and the world is less Christian and more hostile to the Church.
Liturgy: belief in the real presence and understanding of the meaning of Mass has plummeted, liturgical abuses went way up, and Mass attendance and participation on Sundays has plummeted (not to mention vocations to the priesthood).
Revelation: the Scriptures were treated more like error riddled human writings by clergy than before. “Development of doctrine” is now used as justification for substantial change.
Declarations:
Education: once solid Catholic institutions have mostly been completely secularized
Other religions: there have been excesses into indifferentism, an increase in hostile sects, with little common goals being achieved (society has gotten even more secular and hostile to religion).
Religious Freedom: instead of the true doctrine of religions freedom found in the declaration and catechism, instead what was spread and implemented in once Catholic countries was the false version condemned so often that makes relative conscience supreme, and separates the truth about God and man from public life.
Decrees:
Laity: the faithful are just as, if not more divided between their private faith and what they think society should be shaped like (just look at polls on issues like same-sex marriage).
Ecumenism: most non-Catholic communities have gotten farther away from the Catholic Church in their doctrine (especially with regards to morality, gender issues, and sacramental practice), and religious indifferentism and irenicism has spread more in the Catholic Church
Missions: the urgency of seeking conversions for the salvation of souls is more often suppressed and replaced with merely spreading social development
Religious: most of the convents and monasteries emptied and many of those left turned to un- or non-Christian activities (weird cosmic evolution stuff, reiki, or just plain secular social work).
Eastern Churches: see above re Constitution on the Church and decree on ecumenism re indifferentism. “Uniatism” is now rejected, undermining the very existence of EC’s.
Communications: dissenting publications multiplied
Bishops: most bishops seem to act more like careerist middle management, and less like vicars of Christ than ever, while mismanaging their scandal-ridden dioceses into the ground.
Priests/Training: vocations fell, priests leaving and being laicized multiplied, priests promoting their own opinions and doing their own thing in the liturgy went way up, discipline became lax, not to mention the scandals…
Go document by document, assume good intentions for each, and the result in every case has, sadly, been the opposite.
Constitutions:
Church: understanding of the most basic truths about the Church were thrown into confusion (CDF has had to intervene at least four times to clarify the most basic truth that the Catholic Church alone is still the sole Church of Christ) and rather than being treated as a necessary “sacrament of salvation” salvation became generally presumed to be found everywhere.
Modern World: the nature of man has been thrown into more confusion than ever and the world is less Christian and more hostile to the Church.
Liturgy: belief in the real presence and understanding of the meaning of Mass has plummeted, liturgical abuses went way up, and Mass attendance and participation on Sundays has plummeted (not to mention vocations to the priesthood).
Revelation: the Scriptures were treated more like error riddled human writings by clergy than before. “Development of doctrine” is now used as justification for substantial change.
Declarations:
Education: once solid Catholic institutions have mostly been completely secularized
Other religions: there have been excesses into indifferentism, an increase in hostile sects, with little common goals being achieved (society has gotten even more secular and hostile to religion).
Religious Freedom: instead of the true doctrine of religions freedom found in the declaration and catechism, instead what was spread and implemented in once Catholic countries was the false version condemned so often that makes relative conscience supreme, and separates the truth about God and man from public life.
Decrees:
Laity: the faithful are just as, if not more divided between their private faith and what they think society should be shaped like (just look at polls on issues like same-sex marriage).
Ecumenism: most non-Catholic communities have gotten farther away from the Catholic Church in their doctrine (especially with regards to morality, gender issues, and sacramental practice), and religious indifferentism and irenicism has spread more in the Catholic Church
Missions: the urgency of seeking conversions for the salvation of souls is more often suppressed and replaced with merely spreading social development
Religious: most of the convents and monasteries emptied and many of those left turned to un- or non-Christian activities (weird cosmic evolution stuff, reiki, or just plain secular social work).
Eastern Churches: see above re Constitution on the Church and decree on ecumenism re indifferentism. “Uniatism” is now rejected, undermining the very existence of EC’s.
Communications: dissenting publications multiplied
Bishops: most bishops seem to act more like careerist middle management, and less like vicars of Christ than ever, while mismanaging their scandal-ridden dioceses into the ground.
Priests/Training: vocations fell, priests leaving and being laicized multiplied, priests promoting their own opinions and doing their own thing in the liturgy went way up, discipline became lax, not to mention the scandals…
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- Status