The future of Eastern Catholicism in the US?

[Hesychios]

I disagree. Lose a lot more? Most of us hardly have any regular parishioners to begin with. Sure, we fill in the parish during Christmas and Pascha, but the parish is 3/4s empty most Sundays of the year.

The point of de-emphasizing ethnicity is to get more people into the parishes. And we want to do that not because we “foreign” parishioners want more diversity among parishioners, its just that we want more people in the parish to have a more vibrant community and at the same time ensure the survival of the Eastern Churches in North America.

My sentiments exactly, and for the same reasons.

My only experience with highly successful very ethnic parishes is in places with an over-abundance of immigrants. Otherwise, they tend to wilt over time.

Church communities which cannot or will not transform themselves are in trouble, eventually. I have seen the same scourge in Orthodox and Eastern catholic parishes, in some places they just die, in some places they are on chronic life-support and in some places they are on the verge. Most priests are, quite frankly, not dynamic enough to turn around these situations, and I don’t blame them, they are an aging population as well.

 

[Hesychios]

… If you really think about it, if serious efforts were ever made to de-ethnicise Eastern Churches, you’d lose alot more parishoners than you could hope to bring in…

In many places there are so few now, that there isn’t much fear in losing what’s left. It seems that sometimes the situation is so bad, that the bishops do not necessarily close the parishes with the worst prospects but the ones with the most valuable property.

No one should make a serious effort to ‘de-ethnicize’ the parishes, that should happen naturally, as a matter of course as the descendants take over (I have seen this happen in Catholic and Orthodox parishes too). Those successful ethnic-oriented parishes can keep doing what they do.

The problem is, when they discover that the parish is on the verge of closing and they have ignored evangelization opportunities for decades it is usually too late.

At least if they made a serious attempt to support missions to their neighbors … even if these people are not from their ethnic background, and even if it has to be in another building … they would have someone in the area to carry on when they have all gone to God and the grandchildren have abandoned the little church.

The way it is now, the bishop sells the property, usually before they have all had a chance to have a nice traditional funeral in the church, and the presence in the community is gone… the spirituality in the local culture is then lost and the Great Commission is not served.

 

[smad0142]

In fact I believe a Greek Orthodox acquaintence told me that despite the heavy Greek flavor of his parish, only about 80 pct of the parishoners are Greek. .

To me that paints the picture of an ethnic Church that is a little varied due to marriage. “Only about 80 percent…” Only, is he serious? Give me an 80% control over anything, and we will see the heavy smad flavor of that something as well.

You use this anecdote to paint the picture of people coming inspite of the ethnic influence, but in reality it shows a strong correlation between the demographics of the parish and the ethnic influence keeping people out.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

As so many of our bishops have stated over the years…the vocation of the Eastern Churches is to disappear…I guess we are doing a good job.

This is true but not in the way you are implying.

It is the vocation of the Eastern Catholic Churches to disappear through reunion with our Mother Churches when they reunite in communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[ciero]

This is true but not in the way you are implying.

It is the vocation of the Eastern Catholic Churches to disappear through reunion with our Mother Churches when they reunite in communion with the Catholic Church.

Yes Br David that was said tongue in cheek.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My sentiments exactly, and for the same reasons.

My only experience with highly successful very ethnic parishes is in places with an over-abundance of immigrants. Otherwise, they tend to wilt over time.

Church communities which cannot or will not transform themselves are in trouble, eventually. I have seen the same scourge in Orthodox and Eastern catholic parishes, in some places they just die, in some places they are on chronic life-support and in some places they are on the verge. Most priests are, quite frankly, not dynamic enough to turn around these situations, and I don’t blame them, they are an aging population as well.

Right. The Ukrainian parishes in Manitoba and Ontario are doing well because that’s where the Ukrainians migrated. There’s only a few in BC by comparison. For the Ukrainian Church to survive in BC, the Ukrainian parishes should de-emphasize on Ukrainian ethnicity. And I believe the Bishop and the priests know that. The problem is the paradox I presented. Alienate the Ukrainian parishioners who come to church because they feel like home, or satisfy their needs and wants for ethnic connection but not attract new non-Ukrainian parishioners. Both are risks that could end up with parishes being closed down.

 

[ciero]

Right. The Ukrainian parishes in Manitoba and Ontario are doing well because that’s where the Ukrainians migrated. There’s only a few in BC by comparison. For the Ukrainian Church to survive in BC, the Ukrainian parishes should de-emphasize on Ukrainian ethnicity. And I believe the Bishop and the priests know that. The problem is the paradox I presented. Alienate the Ukrainian parishioners who come to church because they feel like home, or satisfy their needs and wants for ethnic connection but not attract new non-Ukrainian parishioners. Both are risks that could end up with parishes being closed down.

How to get it through the heads of the old time Ukrainians that if the church is to survive it must change?

 

[dvdjs]

How to get it through the heads of the old time Ukrainians that if the church is to survive it must change?

Especially in light of everything that they have seen in their lives?

 

[ConstantineTG]

How to get it through the heads of the old time Ukrainians that if the church is to survive it must change?

Yes. But not radically change. Sometimes its just a minor change. Like have English Liturgies. They already live in an English speaking country, I’m sure they can handle it.

Especially in light of everything that they have seen in their lives?

So give them what they want and then fold up the parishes after they all die? Is the purpose of the Church here in the diaspora just to cater to the immigrants? How about new evangelization? Is it a wonder why only less than 2% of total Catholics in the world are Eastern Catholics? Sure, there have been many situations in history that contributed to their inability to expand. But what of today? They can go to any part of the world they can and spread the Eastern faith. Why limit just to those who grew up with the faith and ethnically tied to where the Church came from?

 

[dvdjs]

So give them what they want and then fold up the parishes after they all die? Is the purpose of the Church here in the diaspora just to cater to the immigrants? How about new evangelization?

Given all that they lived through, it is probably worthwhile to listen to what they say, to listen to their ideas and plans, and to engage them directly.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Given all that they lived through, it is probably worthwhile to listen to what they say, to listen to their ideas and plans, and to engage them directly.

I’ve heard their opinions. Look, I respect them and I love them, they’re great people. I know they mean no harm, but I feel that they don’t understand the consequences of what they are asking for. Sure, they’re not the ones who going to see the parish sold to an Evangelical group, or to a condo developer who will tear it down. The parish is still doing well while they are here. When they’re gone and there is no one to replace them, thats when it will all take place.

 

[ciero]

Given all that they lived through, it is probably worthwhile to listen to what they say, to listen to their ideas and plans, and to engage them directly.

I’ve been told by more then 1 Ukrainian Greek Catholic…as long as the church is here for me to be buried from. Even considering “all they have been through” I dont really think that is a attitude the church should embrace.

I’ve also been told that the Ukrainian Catholic church is only for Ukrainians…why dont you go to your own church…your not welcome here…also an attitude I dont think the church should embrace.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’ve also been told that the Ukrainian Catholic church is only for Ukrainians…why dont you go to your own church…your not welcome here…also an attitude I dont think the church should embrace.

I have to second this.

Back when I decided to embrace my Byzantine heritage I decided to find a Byzantine Church to attend. At the time I was living in Rochester, NY. The closest Ruthenian parish is in the Buffalo area about an hour and a half away. This would not due, especially when I was on-call for work and during winter when the thru-way can get pretty dangerous and even gets closed down with people stranded for up to days on it. I was also a volunteer fire fighter/emt and wanted to stay close to my fire district.

There was two UGCC parishes. One old calendar and one new calendar. I tried them out but got the impression that I was not welcome. They did not say it in so many words but the feeling was very present. So I gave the Melkite Greek Catholic Church a try. Now they have their ethnic event but they do the Divine Liturgy and the occasional Vespers in English with a little Greek and a little Arabic. On Holy Days they do the readings in both English and Arabic. It was a much more welcoming place to attend even with the ethnic events. They made you feel welcome.

 

[dvdjs]

I’ve been told by more then 1 Ukrainian Greek Catholic…as long as the church is here for me to be buried from. Even considering “all they have been through” I don’t really think that is a attitude the church should embrace.

I’ve also been told that the Ukrainian Catholic church is only for Ukrainians…why dont you go to your own church…your not welcome here…also an attitude I dont think the church should embrace.

Of course this attitude is not helpful, but is it prevalent? I don’t know many Ukrainians, and cannot speak for the UGCC, but I don’t imagine them to be so different from “us”. And concern for the well-being and sustainability of the church is prominent in the mind of every old-timer that I know. I can imagine that in a moment of frustration and fear, some remarks symptomatic of despair may be made, but I would be cautious about over interpreting them. It is worth listening - deep listening - to what is being said by people whose love for their church was perfect enough to sustain them through heroic suffering. There is likely to be a great message there - even if it is subtle and difficult to hear through the noise.

 

[TheDoors]

I have to second this.

Back when I decided to embrace my Byzantine heritage I decided to find a Byzantine Church to attend. At the time I was living in Rochester, NY. The closest Ruthenian parish is in the Buffalo area about an hour and a half away. This would not due, especially when I was on-call for work and during winter when the thru-way can get pretty dangerous and even gets closed down with people stranded for up to days on it. I was also a volunteer fire fighter/emt and wanted to stay close to my fire district.

There was two UGCC parishes. One old calendar and one new calendar. I tried them out but got the impression that I was not welcome. They did not say it in so many words but the feeling was very present. So I gave the Melkite Greek Catholic Church a try. Now they have their ethnic event but they do the Divine Liturgy and the occasional Vespers in English with a little Greek and a little Arabic. On Holy Days they do the readings in both English and Arabic. It was a much more welcoming place to attend even with the ethnic events. They made you feel welcome.

Father, please bless this poor sinner.

I was brought up south of Rochester myself going to a RC church. It took joining the Army and being stationed in Texas for me to even find the Byzantine Catholic Church. The closest church to Ft. Hood was three hours north in Dallas. When I went home to visit the folks on leave I found Saint Nicholas the Wonder Worker a little more than a half hour away from home with a very welcoming congragation and priest.

 

[Hesychios]

There was two UGCC parishes. One old calendar and one new calendar. I tried them out but got the impression that I was not welcome. They did not say it in so many words but the feeling was very present. So I gave the Melkite Greek Catholic Church a try. Now they have their ethnic event but they do the Divine Liturgy and the occasional Vespers in English with a little Greek and a little Arabic. On Holy Days they do the readings in both English and Arabic. It was a much more welcoming place to attend even with the ethnic events. They made you feel welcome.

I had similar experiences.

 

[Seamus_L]

It’s really interesting. The highly motivated Eastern converts are the ones who frequently feel unwelcome in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes that are very ethnically oriented (and I’ve been reading this online for over a decade) while many of us Traditional RC’s feel exactly the opposite (and that includes my visits to Orthodox Churches as well) Could be one group has greater respect for the parish’s culture and traditions, while the other is often in an awful big hurry to change things.

 

[malphono]

It’s really interesting. The highly motivated Eastern converts are the ones who frequently feel unwelcome in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes that are very ethnically oriented (and I’ve been reading this online for over a decade) while many of us Traditional RC’s feel exactly the opposite (and that includes my visits to Orthodox Churches as well) Could be one group has greater respect for the parish’s culture and traditions, while the other is often in an awful big hurry to change things.

Yes, and that’s quite similar to where I was going in an earlier [post=7860260]post[/post].

My my … we continue to agree on this issue.

 

[Seamus_L]

When Diak and I agree it will probably mark the beginning of the Apocalypse

 

[Alexander_Roman]

It’s really interesting. The highly motivated Eastern converts are the ones who frequently feel unwelcome in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes that are very ethnically oriented (and I’ve been reading this online for over a decade) while many of us Traditional RC’s feel exactly the opposite (and that includes my visits to Orthodox Churches as well) Could be one group has greater respect for the parish’s culture and traditions, while the other is often in an awful big hurry to change things.

Dear Seamus,

I don’t know who you are - but I love your insightful take on issues!

A co-worker of Ukrainian descent joined the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (he became one of those converts who made the Sign of the Cross over everything etc. ).

Now, I knew the UOC bishop very well. He was a very courteous gentleman, widely read and very congenial (even jovial).

But my convert-acquaintance nearly drove him to the edge of the precipice. As you said, he wanted to change everything around, causing the bishop, his priests and many laity no end of grief.

Not that I’m against change. But, for heavens’ sake, let’s not go into a new situation and cause problems where there really were none before.

Alex

Alex