The future of Eastern Catholicism in the US?

[Phillip_Rolfes]

It’s really interesting. The highly motivated Eastern converts are the ones who frequently feel unwelcome in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes that are very ethnically oriented (and I’ve been reading this online for over a decade) while many of us Traditional RC’s feel exactly the opposite (and that includes my visits to Orthodox Churches as well) Could be one group has greater respect for the parish’s culture and traditions, while the other is often in an awful big hurry to change things.

Could it also be that in their love and zeal for the Byzantine tradition they seek to transcend not so much the ethnic barrier as simply the language barrier in order to open up the wonders of the Byzantine Liturgical tradition to those who do not speak Ukrainian, Arabic, Romanian, etc.? Do not be too quick to judge the hearts and intentions of those who were not born into the Byzantine tradition, but embraced it at a later stage.

It is also noteworthy that a large number of prominent Eastern Catholic heirarchs and scholars have publicly warned of the dangers of an overly ethnic Church/parish (i.e. parishes where people not belonging to one’s ethnic background are not welcomed, or where a focus on ethnicity hinders evangelization). Almost universally the primary remedy they give is simply translating the Liturgical Services into the native tongue of whatever land the Church is residing in. This is perfectly in line with the Byzantine tradition, and it is still possible to maintain the “ethnic flavor” of one’s parish while celebrating the Liturgies in English (or any other language for that matter). As I’ve said before, my own parish is heavily Arab in culture (a thing which I love and cherish greatly despite my German-Irish descent), but our Liturgies are celebrated predominantly in English with a healthy smattering of Arabic and Greek.

I like Hesychios’ idea of establishing mission parishes that celebrate the Liturgies in English while at the same time existing alongside the ethnic parishes. I could see a potential danger being the development of an “Us vs. Them” mentality along the lines of the E.F. vs. O.F. crowd in the Roman Church, but so far it’s the best solution I’ve come across.

Oh, and it’s not just converts to Byzantine Christianity who are clammering for vernacular Liturgies and less ethnically focused parishes. I’ve heard countless stories of young people who are second or third generation Ukrainians, Arabs, Carpatho-Rusyns, Romanians, etc., who either left or nearly left their Byzantine tradition because they couldn’t understand the Liturgies. Bishop John Michael Botean is among these. He nearly abandoned the Romanian Greek Catholic Church and became a Franciscan as a young man because he felt alienated at his own parish. It was the advise of his (Roman/Franciscan) spiritual director and hearing the Divine Liturgy celebrated in our native tongue for the first time that kept him in the Byzantine tradition. What a great loss to the Byzantine tradition in America, and the Romanian Greek Catholic Church in particular, that would have been had he become Roman. Incidentally, I believe he told me the first Liturgy he heard celebrated in English was celebrated by Archbishop Joseph Raya, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Dear Seamus,

I don’t know who you are - but I love your insightful take on issues!

Alex

I agree with Seamus to an extent. We must certain respect those who have suffered greatly in order to preserve their Liturgical traditions as well as their communion with Rome. But such respect does pose a difficulty. Can we respect our forebearers in the Faith while at the same time introducing certain changes for the sake of evangelizing the culture in which we now find ourselves? If this is possible, how is it to be done in a pastorally sensitive way which avoids alienating either those who have gone before us or those who are to come after us? I find parishes like St. Elias in Brampton, Ontario, to be quite a wonderful standard.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Could it also be that in their love and zeal for the Byzantine tradition they seek to transcend not so much the ethnic barrier as simply the language barrier in order to open up the wonders of the Byzantine Liturgical tradition to those who do not speak Ukrainian, Arabic, Romanian, etc.? Do not be too quick to judge the hearts and intentions of those who were not born into the Byzantine tradition, but embraced it at a later stage.

It is also noteworthy that a large number of prominent Eastern Catholic heirarchs and scholars have publicly warned of the dangers of an overly ethnic Church/parish (i.e. parishes where people not belonging to one’s ethnic background are not welcomed, or where a focus on ethnicity hinders evangelization). Almost universally the primary remedy they give is simply translating the Liturgical Services into the native tongue of whatever land the Church is residing in. This is perfectly in line with the Byzantine tradition, and it is still possible to maintain the “ethnic flavor” of one’s parish while celebrating the Liturgies in English (or any other language for that matter). As I’ve said before, my own parish is heavily Arab in culture (a thing which I love and cherish greatly despite my German-Irish descent), but our Liturgies are celebrated predominantly in English with a healthy smattering of Arabic and Greek.

I like Hesychios’ idea of establishing mission parishes that celebrate the Liturgies in English while at the same time existing alongside the ethnic parishes. I could see a potential danger being the development of an “Us vs. Them” mentality along the lines of the E.F. vs. O.F. crowd in the Roman Church, but so far it’s the best solution I’ve come across.

Oh, and it’s not just converts to Byzantine Christianity who are clammering for vernacular Liturgies and less ethnically focused parishes. I’ve heard countless stories of young people who are second or third generation Ukrainians, Arabs, Carpatho-Rusyns, Romanians, etc., who either left or nearly left their Byzantine tradition because they couldn’t understand the Liturgies. Bishop John Michael Botean is among these. He nearly abandoned the Romanian Greek Catholic Church and became a Franciscan as a young man because he felt alienated at his own parish. It was the advise of his (Roman/Franciscan) spiritual director and hearing the Divine Liturgy celebrated in our native tongue for the first time that kept him in the Byzantine tradition. What a great loss to the Byzantine tradition in America, and the Romanian Greek Catholic Church in particular, that would have been had he become Roman. Incidentally, I believe he told me the first Liturgy he heard celebrated in English was celebrated by Archbishop Joseph Raya, but I could be wrong about that.

Dear Master Beadsman,

You are bang on!

The flip side could also involve a stubbornness about the Old Calendar and other things.

But in the UOC here, as I understand it, there is now a tremendous and official emphasis on English liturgies, even when parishes are largely Ukrainian-speaking and really don’t appreciate this imposition.

They have new priests from Ukraine, very modern and contemporary, but whose first language is, of course, Ukrainian and who are assigned to Ukrainian language parishes where they must serve in . . . English.

In short, the whole thing isn’t well thought out at all.

Alex

 

[ciero]

Of course this attitude is not helpful, but is it prevalent? I don’t know many Ukrainians, and cannot speak for the UGCC, but I don’t imagine them to be so different from “us”. And concern for the well-being and sustainability of the church is prominent in the mind of every old-timer that I know. I can imagine that in a moment of frustration and fear, some remarks symptomatic of despair may be made, but I would be cautious about over interpreting them. It is worth listening - deep listening - to what is being said by people whose love for their church was perfect enough to sustain them through heroic suffering. There is likely to be a great message there - even if it is subtle and difficult to hear through the noise.

In my experience it is quite prevalent. On one occasion I didn’t even get in the front door. This has happened to me in Denver, San Francisco, Phoenix, Passaic, Rochester, Toronto and Pittsburgh. IMO the difference between the Ruthenians and Ukrainians is nationalism. The Ruthenians never had a “homeland”, to rally behind. The Ukrainians did and it became the be all and end all of being Ukrainian Catholic. Sort of to carry on being Ukrainian is spite of the Soviets.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

There are now parishes with English-language Liturgies that attract all manner of people.

Also, our Patriarch Svyatoslav (very Ukrainian-sounding name that . . .) has publicly said he would like to see a UGCC in future where all kinds of languages are used, welcoming all people.

When I related this to my mother-in-law, her initial reaction to the thoughts of her chief hierarch on this far-reaching issue was simply, “Over my dead body . . .”.

But the Orthodox Catholic Church of Kiev has always transcended cultural barriers. The Saints of this Church include Hungarians, Roumanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Belarusyans, people from the Baltics, Russians and Siberians etc.

Time to start including North Americans!

Personally, I love it when non-Ukrainians want to become members of the UGCC (we might need to work on that name too . . . ).

Ukies, in my experience, often tend to see their Church as one more institution within their ethnocultural community. Rather than see it as the central experience of their lives in Christ, they see it as a kind of burdensome necessity. That’s why they don’t understand why converts want to join. If they aren’t of Ukrainian background, what do they want from us? This mentality is due to their complete innocence of the Byzantine-Slavic spirituality of their Church.

Time to change that too.

Alex

 

[smad0142]

Ciero,

If you tried the UGCC in Denver then you were at my Parish. Which also means, in spite of our differences, you can empathize with me.

Our sign is entirely in Ukrainian. I drive so far to get to the Parish that it becomes the Spanish speaking part of town, and yet the sign isn’t even in English. Every single sign in the parish is in Ukrainian, to the point that I couldn’t even find the bathroom. Every single parish event centers around either some Ukrainian poet from two hundred years ago, or folk music. Both events I would love to attend, but they are done completely in Ukrainian so I would be entirely lost both with the people and the actual event.

The only reason I go is for the English DL, and all the visitors we have ever had come to the English DL, not the Ukrainian. All of our new members, which is about 5, came through the English DL. And all the kids who have left, mostly for the RC, is because of all the Ukrainian usage. Yet, none of the Ukrainians want to stop using Ukrainian on anything. The only reason we have an English DL is from the previous pastor, who was ran out of the parish.

So ethnicity is dominating this parish to the point of killing it. If they just used English it would be a completely different expereince. Conversely, the Ruthenian Parish is positively blossoming and it uses English. **

 

[ciero]

Ciero,

If you tried the UGCC in Denver then you were at my Parish. Which also means, in spite of our differences, you can empathize with me.

Our sign is entirely in Ukrainian. I drive so far to get to the Parish that it becomes the Spanish speaking part of town, and yet the sign isn’t even in English. Every single sign in the parish is in Ukrainian, to the point that I couldn’t even find the bathroom. Every single parish event centers around either some Ukrainian poet from two hundred years ago, or folk music. Both events I would love to attend, but they are done completely in Ukrainian so I would be entirely lost both with the people and the actual event.

The only reason I go is for the English DL, and all the visitors we have ever had come to the English DL, not the Ukrainian. All of our new members, which is about 5, came through the English DL. And all the kids who have left, mostly for the RC, is because of all the Ukrainian usage. Yet, none of the Ukrainians want to stop using Ukrainian on anything. The only reason we have an English DL is from the previous pastor, who was ran out of the parish.

So ethnicity is dominating this parish to the point of killing it. If they just used English it would be a completely different expereince. Conversely, the Ruthenian Parish is positively blossoming and it uses English. **

Denver is where I wasn’t even allowed in the door . Maybe you should try the Ruthenian church in town…it’s all in English, and Fr Michael is a great priest.

 

[smad0142]

I felt called to the UGCC. I have no idea why, but when I was going back to my roots the Spirit said go there. So now I am there and am pining after the Ruthenians. Thats life in the Spirit for ya.

 

[ciero]

I felt called to the UGCC. I have no idea why, but when I was going back to my roots the Spirit said go there. So now I am there and am pining after the Ruthenians. Thats life in the Spirit for ya.

Might want to question that with a spiritual father.

 

[Hesychios]

It’s really interesting. The highly motivated Eastern converts are the ones who frequently feel unwelcome in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes that are very ethnically oriented (and I’ve been reading this online for over a decade) while many of us Traditional RC’s feel exactly the opposite (and that includes my visits to Orthodox Churches as well) Could be one group has greater respect for the parish’s culture and traditions, while the other is often in an awful big hurry to change things.

I beg to differ. I don’t think generalizations are possible in this way. We can only cite the examples we know of and our personal experiences and reflect on them.

When I first encountered the eastern churches I was a pretty tradiitonal-leaning RC. I have encountered either very welcoming or icey cold reception in not only Eastern catholic and Orthodox parishes, but in ethnic RC parishes as well (although sometimes in RC parishes one gets the ‘Great Sea of Anonimity’ which is a bit like being totally ignored … in a benign sort of way. This is not generally experienced in the smaller parishes and missions of the eastern churches.)

I too have been reading and prticipating in these discussions for over ten years, and the topic will not go away! The newcomers have had these reactions to these experiences then, and yet much later there are different newcomers having the same experiences in different parishes hundreds of miles apart and years apart.

Most priests know there is a problem with the insularity of these parishes, I have spoken to some of them. These parish communities do have a way of discouraging inquirers.

Why is this important? Because we are witnessing before us as we speak (or write, in this case) the “Incredible Shrinking Churches”. The long-term trends are irrefutable.

Ideally, there should be a balance. There should be a focus meeting the spiritual needs of immigrants of the cradle communities as as well as reaching out to the wider community not yet touched by Truth.

But there never really has been a balance, and likely there never will be one way or the other, and it makes people upset.

I wrote earlier that I feel that the Eastern tradition (especially the Byzantine, but I am biased ) is a great gift to this culture. I would hate to see it squandered. Sadly though, I am reconciled to the fact that a church … any church … that does not reach out and grab the hearts and minds of it’s neighbors deserves to die.

 

[smad0142]

I have.

And he is not UGCC hahah.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There are now parishes with English-language Liturgies that attract all manner of people.

Also, our Patriarch Svyatoslav (very Ukrainian-sounding name that . . .) has publicly said he would like to see a UGCC in future where all kinds of languages are used, welcoming all people.

When I related this to my mother-in-law, her initial reaction to the thoughts of her chief hierarch on this far-reaching issue was simply, “Over my dead body . . .”.

But the Orthodox Catholic Church of Kiev has always transcended cultural barriers. The Saints of this Church include Hungarians, Roumanians, Greeks, Macedonians, Belarusyans, people from the Baltics, Russians and Siberians etc.

Time to start including North Americans!

Personally, I love it when non-Ukrainians want to become members of the UGCC (we might need to work on that name too . . . ).

Ukies, in my experience, often tend to see their Church as one more institution within their ethnocultural community. Rather than see it as the central experience of their lives in Christ, they see it as a kind of burdensome necessity. That’s why they don’t understand why converts want to join. If they aren’t of Ukrainian background, what do they want from us? This mentality is due to their complete innocence of the Byzantine-Slavic spirituality of their Church.

Time to change that too.

Alex

Alex, I know being like the Russians is the last thing Ukrainians want, but is something like ROCOR or OCA the solution to the problem in North America? If the Ukrainian Church were to establish a “North American Byzantine Church” of sorts which is under their care and control, and emphasizes on North American adaptations of Ukrainian traditions and an all-English Liturgy all the time, would it help welcome more non-Ukrainians into the faith?

 

[smad0142]

Alex, I know being like the Russians is the last thing Ukrainians want, but is something like ROCOR or OCA the solution to the problem in North America? If the Ukrainian Church were to establish a “North American Byzantine Church” of sorts which is under their care and control, and emphasizes on North American adaptations of Ukrainian traditions and an all-English Liturgy all the time, would it help welcome more non-Ukrainians into the faith?

Without a doubt I think it would.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It’s really interesting. The highly motivated Eastern converts are the ones who frequently feel unwelcome in both Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes that are very ethnically oriented (and I’ve been reading this online for over a decade) while many of us Traditional RC’s feel exactly the opposite (and that includes my visits to Orthodox Churches as well) Could be one group has greater respect for the parish’s culture and traditions, while the other is often in an awful big hurry to change things.

My experience has been very different.

The “Traditionalist” RC’s who have come to my past parish wished to introduce their practices such as kneeling and reception of communion while kneeling among other things.

There is one family in my current parish who does kneel but they are not that pushy in trying to make all of us do so.

 

[malphono]

My experience has been very different.

The “Traditionalist” RC’s who have come to my past parish wished to introduce their practices such as kneeling and reception of communion while kneeling among other things.

There is one family in my current parish who does kneel but they are not that pushy in trying to make all of us do so.

There are basically two groups of so-called “Traditional RCs” might attend an Eastern or Oriental church. The first groups is composed of those who are essentially running from the Novus Ordo, and it seems those are the people you mean; if so, I agree that they can be “trying” to say the very least. Fortunately, though, that trend seems to have reversed itself in the wake of Summorum Pontificum.

The second group, (which is what I believe Seamus was referring to, and is definitely the group I had in mind), however, is far different. They don’t go for the purpose of latinizing or introducing their own practices, or anything of the kind. Far from it. They are RCs who are interested in the EC/OC and go to be immersed in what the East/Orient has to offer on its own terms. Most, of course, are occasional visitors, but a fair number eventually pitch their tent, so-to-speak, and become regulars. These are people who appreciate the mystique and the traditions (and even the dreaded "ethnicity) of the Eastern and Oriental Churches for what they are.

 

[ciero]

A Melkite priest friend of mine has decided to NOT cater to the ethnic club mentality prevalent in the church. It is his belief that if the church is to survive here in the US English must be the predominant language. Now that is not to say that he dosen’t use a smattering of Arabic but for the most part services are in English. Everything is done with the American convert or the young people who don’t speak Arabic, in mind. If they’re not comfortable…its not done.

He has certainly upset a good number of people through the years…but his parish has grown. It is NOT the Arabs who are at all the weekday services but the American “converts”. It is the Americans who support the parish both financially and with giving of time, not the Arabs…so that is who he is catering to. Not that the Arabs aren’t welcome…this priest just isn’t bending over backwards for them.

 

[smad0142]

Ciero if you could PM that Priest’s info I would love to talk to him to get ideas about how to do that in my Parish. Thanks!!

 

[hazcompat]

peace

 

[Hesychios]

A Melkite priest friend of mine has decided to NOT cater to the ethnic club mentality prevalent in the church. It is his belief that if the church is to survive here in the US English must be the predominant language. Now that is not to say that he dosen’t use a smattering of Arabic but for the most part services are in English. Everything is done with the American convert or the young people who don’t speak Arabic, in mind. If they’re not comfortable…its not done.

He has certainly upset a good number of people through the years…but his parish has grown. It is NOT the Arabs who are at all the weekday services but the American “converts”. It is the Americans who support the parish both financially and with giving of time, not the Arabs…so that is who he is catering to. Not that the Arabs aren’t welcome…this priest just isn’t bending over backwards for them.

His Grace Joseph Tawil (Memory Eternal!) once had something enlightening to say on the subject …

"In a ghetto life is closed in upon itself, operating only within itself, with its own ethnic and social clichés. And the Parish lives upon the ethnic character of the community; when that character disappears, the community dies and the parish dies with it … One day all our ethnic traits - language, folklore, customs - will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, primarily for the service of the immigrant or the ethnically oriented, unless we wish to assure the death of our community. Our Churches are not only for our own people but are also for any of our fellow Americans who are attracted to our traditions which show forth the beauty of the universal Church and the variety of its riches… "

Amen!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sometimes also its not just the ethnic practices that people are resisting. With heavily Latinized practices, many UGCCers are holding on to the Latinizations because that is what they grew up with. So they still kneel on Sundays even though its Pascha, even they they were asked not to. We even have a hard time implementing the Anthology as everyone still wants to stick to the previous musical sets they were accustomed to.