G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Enough with the Socratic method. Why don’t you state YOUR beliefs for once!?
- Status
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Ambassador, each one of your posts is smug and reveals a high-horse intellectual self-image that presupposes the rest of us to be ninnies. When you ask me, “do you even know what an inductive argument is?” that’s a prime example of what this poster is referring to.
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
I spent two weeks working on my minor opus and should have spent a little more time before posting. I was busy editing when I was timed out. I have rewritten the above paragraph and this is how I wish I’d framed it:
When I lived out west I became the very best of friends with a Jewish woman (we stay in touch); I asked her about Judaism and the afterlife according to the Jewish faith. I also read her exhaustively annotated copy of the Torah (about 1000 pages) which included the Midrash. Thus I learned very much about Judaism but I don’t understand it in the same way I understand Far Eastern religions (I spent 3 years in the SE Asia.), Islam and Christianity. And though I may disagree with these other religions I feel it’s not up to me to judge them. (Judge not lest ye be judged.) As to the Judaic afterlife the best I can say is to quote her, [sheol] “is a pretty iffy concept.” Based on her answers, and having read the Torah, it only served to pose more questions than were answered. I wanted to ask her other questions but couldn’t think of a diplomatic way to frame them. Such as, what is the raison d’Aatre of Judaism?
I’m always open to learning, if other members would care to teach me I’d be glad to learn. (Perhaps contacting me directly would be the best way.)Some of the things I particularly love about Christianity is the guidance, care and unending love of God, the teachings He gave us in His revealed word and the Logos of Jesus, the unbelievable and penultimate sacrifice that Jesus made for each of us on the cross, the other worldly gift of the Holy Spirit, the joy and peace that comes from following His will and the heart warming reward that comes from practicing works (helping others). At least I do these to the best of my human ability (frailty?) and I know I fall short. And the certainty of being forgiven when we penitently take our sins to Him. I do believe we are saved by faith and justified by works.
And I can say that for many years now I’ve been comfortable living in my own skin. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit because it wasn’t given to me until I stopped trying to achieve it on my own; and stopped hinting to the Lord what the outcome of my prayers should be. As I’ve learned to let go of the outcome of my prayers my life has become better than I ever could have imagined. Or perhaps another way to put it is this; the better I get at taking my ego out of my relationship with the Lord and others the better my life gets and the happier a man I become.
A
adrift
Guest
I have never seen an interpretation of the Church that talks about the gates of the Church. Do you have a reference? Since this is not an interpretation of the Church, your statement looses any credence.
Hell of the damned is eternal. I get the impression that you have another definition.
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
From Koine Greek which arose as a common dialect within the armies of Alexander the Great. I have two copies of the MS, the Textus Receptus and Westcott-Hort’s Critical Text.Simeon Hovey:
Thank you for your interesting and informative post. As a matter of curiosity, from what class of the Greek language did you translate this from? Koine, Classical, or Modern Greek? It is my understanding that most of the early writings were in Koine Greek which is a bit different from Modern Greek. Again, thank you. God Bless.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I also have an interlinear Greek version from King James which is sometimes useful, but we know so much more about ancient Greek today than in King James’ time which version contains many mistakes.
Simeon
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
I spent two weeks working on my minor opus and should have spent a little more time before posting. I was busy editing when I was timed out. I have rewritten the above paragraph and this is how I wish I’d framed it:
When I lived out west I became the very best of friends with a Jewish woman (we stay in touch); I asked her about Judaism and the afterlife according to the Jewish faith. I also read her exhaustively annotated copy of the Torah (about 1000 pages) and the Midrash. Thus I learned very much about Judaism but I don’t understand it in the same way I understand Far Eastern religions (I spent 3 years in the SE Asia.), Islam and Christianity. And though I may disagree with these other religions I feel it’s not up to me to judge them. (Judge not lest ye be judged.) As to the Judaic afterlife the best I can say is to quote her, [sheol] “is a pretty iffy concept.” Based on her answers, and having read the Torah, it only served to pose more questions than were answered. I wanted to ask her other questions but couldn’t think of a diplomatic way to frame them. Such as, what is the raison d’Aatre of Judaism?
I’m always open to learning, if other members would care to teach me I’d be glad to learn. (Perhaps contacting me directly would be the best way.)Some of the things I particularly love about Christianity is the guidance, care and unending love of God, the teachings He gave us in His revealed word and the Logos of Jesus, the unbelievable and penultimate sacrifice that Jesus made for each of us on the cross, the other worldly gift of the Holy Spirit, the joy and peace that comes from following His will and the heart warming reward that comes from practicing works (helping others). At least I do these to the best of my human ability (frailty?) and I know I fall short. And the certainty of being forgiven when we penitently take our sins to Him. I do believe we are saved by faith and justified by works.
And I can say that for many years now I’ve been comfortable living in my own skin. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit because it wasn’t given to me until I stopped trying to achieve it on my own; and stopped hinting to the Lord what the outcome of my prayers should be. As I’ve learned to let go of the outcome of my prayers my life has become better than I ever could have imagined. Or perhaps another way to put it is this; the better I get at taking my ego out of my relationship with the Lord and others the better my life gets and the happier a man I become.
J
Javl
Guest
Thank you, very much. Again it was an interesting and informative post. God Bless.From Koine Greek which arose as a common dialect within the armies of Alexander the Great. I have two copies of the MS, the Textus Receptus and Westcott-Hort’s Critical Text.
I also have an interlinear Greek version from King James which is sometimes useful, but we know so much more about ancient Greek today than in King James’ time which version contains many mistakes.
Simeon
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
OOPS! I made a mistake on my translation of auths – my most contrite of apologies.
It means:{P Gen/Abl Sing Feminine} | her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which.
[/quote]
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
I hope interest in this thread hasn’t dwindled out, I’ve continued my research, have taken about 10,000 words of notes, and it’s been a very intersting journey.
One thing I’ve known for a long time is that it’s all too easy to get lost in a verse to the detriment of the chapter – and the verse. Put another way, one can’t see the chapter because of the verse*.
First, Simeon/petros wasn’t named Peter until sometime after the Vulgate was written [AD 382 – 405] because it uses Petrus. While Peter is used in Acts about 60 - 70 times, in every case the Greek MS uses petros - meaning rock; also in Acts 15:14 James calls Peter “Simeon.”
The Vulgate - MT 16:18, “et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam” I’ve underlined words that might be familiar.
As a refresher here is the verse MT 16:18: “So now I say to you: You are [Petrus] and on this [petram] I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.” From the New Jerusalem Bible.
Another thing I found is that the primary Greek word for gate/pugai is “folding entrance.”
The words underworld, Hell, Hades/adou (which is the Greek God of the underworld) are all wrong and should be Sheol: death, the grave and the world of the dead. Note: It wasn’t until about AD 200 that Rabbinic thinking developed the concept of a separate after-life for the righteous and the unrighteous.
Previously I hadn’t given any thought to the word “build” but when I researched it I found the word oikodomhso to be very rich; it means to start with an idea, architect it and build it. Anyone whose ever built anything will know that the idea of what to create is by far the most critical step in the process. So what was God’s idea for sending Jesus to earth and what was He to create? Clearly Jesus wasn’t thinking about creating a church building and all that would follow, but His mission in coming; and what He needed to create the ekklhsian [call to assembly] in order to conquer sin and death – in other words – to conquer Sheol, the resurrection of the dead and to provide the opportunity of salvation for all. This is what the gate to Sheol cannot overcome – Jesus and the body of Christ. Thus in addition to his appointment of Simeon He makes an equally, if not far more, (name removed by moderator)ortant statement about his mission to earth. Which is why the whole chapter is critical to interpreting the verse.
Simeon
One thing I’ve known for a long time is that it’s all too easy to get lost in a verse to the detriment of the chapter – and the verse. Put another way, one can’t see the chapter because of the verse*.
First, Simeon/petros wasn’t named Peter until sometime after the Vulgate was written [AD 382 – 405] because it uses Petrus. While Peter is used in Acts about 60 - 70 times, in every case the Greek MS uses petros - meaning rock; also in Acts 15:14 James calls Peter “Simeon.”
The Vulgate - MT 16:18, “et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam” I’ve underlined words that might be familiar.
As a refresher here is the verse MT 16:18: “So now I say to you: You are [Petrus] and on this [petram] I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.” From the New Jerusalem Bible.
Another thing I found is that the primary Greek word for gate/pugai is “folding entrance.”
The words underworld, Hell, Hades/adou (which is the Greek God of the underworld) are all wrong and should be Sheol: death, the grave and the world of the dead. Note: It wasn’t until about AD 200 that Rabbinic thinking developed the concept of a separate after-life for the righteous and the unrighteous.
Previously I hadn’t given any thought to the word “build” but when I researched it I found the word oikodomhso to be very rich; it means to start with an idea, architect it and build it. Anyone whose ever built anything will know that the idea of what to create is by far the most critical step in the process. So what was God’s idea for sending Jesus to earth and what was He to create? Clearly Jesus wasn’t thinking about creating a church building and all that would follow, but His mission in coming; and what He needed to create the ekklhsian [call to assembly] in order to conquer sin and death – in other words – to conquer Sheol, the resurrection of the dead and to provide the opportunity of salvation for all. This is what the gate to Sheol cannot overcome – Jesus and the body of Christ. Thus in addition to his appointment of Simeon He makes an equally, if not far more, (name removed by moderator)ortant statement about his mission to earth. Which is why the whole chapter is critical to interpreting the verse.
Simeon
- This is the reason why I don’t like hop-scotch-preaching, taking similar verses from throughout the Bible in order to make a point that doesn’t exist – if one takes the time to read the chapters.
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
Chapter 15 Summary
- The Traditions of the Pharisees. It’s not what goes into the mouth that makes someone unclean but the words and actions that come from the heart.
- Healing the daughter of the Canaanite woman. “But even little dogs eat from the scraps of their master’s table.
- Healing the crowds.
- The 2nd feeding of the multitude.
- The Pharisees and Sadducees came, and to put him to the test they asked if he would show them a sign from heaven.
2 He replied, ‘In the evening you say, “It will be fine; there’s a red sky,” 3 and in the morning, “Stormy weather today; the sky is red and overcast.” You know how to read the face of the sky, but you cannot read the signs of the times. 4 It is an evil and unfaithful generation asking for a sign, and the only sign it will be given is the sign of Jonah.’ And he left them and went off.
5 The disciples, having crossed to the other side, had forgotten to take any food. 6 Jesus said to them, ‘Keep your eyes open, and be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.’
7 And they said among themselves, ‘It is because we have not brought any bread.’
8 Jesus knew it, and he said, ‘You have so little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand and the number of baskets you collected? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand and the number of baskets you collected? 11 How could you fail to understand that I was not talking about bread? What I said was: Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.’ 12 Then they understood that he was telling them to be on their guard, not against yeast for making bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi he put this question to his disciples, ‘Who do people say the Son of man is?’
14 And they said, ‘Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’
15 ‘But you,’ he said, ‘who do you say I am?’
16 Then Simon Peter spoke up and said, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’
17 Jesus replied, ‘Simon son of Jonah, you are a blessed man! Because it was no human agency that revealed this to you but my Father in heaven.
18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’
20 Then he gave the disciples strict orders not to say to anyone that he was the Christ.
21 From then onwards Jesus began to make it clear to his disciples that he was destined to go to Jerusalem and suffer grievously at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes and to be put to death and to be raised up on the third day.
22 Then, taking him aside, Peter started to rebuke him. ‘Heaven preserve you, Lord,’ he said, ‘this must not happen to you.’
23 But he turned and said to Peter, ‘Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle in my path, because you are thinking not as God thinks but as human beings do.’
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 Anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 What, then, will anyone gain by winning the whole world and forfeiting his life? Or what can anyone offer in exchange for his life? 27 ‘For the Son of man is going to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his behavior. 28 In truth I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming with his kingdom.’
- The transfiguration.
- The question about Elijah.
- The epileptic demonic.
- 2nd prophecy of the passion.
- The temple tax paid by Jesus and Simeon.
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
Chapter 16 and the pre/post summaries are taken from The New Jerusalem Bible.
May you all have a blessed and Happy New Year, Simeon
M
Marie5890
Guest
Simeon!
Blest New Year’s to you, too.
I have never replied in your thread, but trust me when I say I find your work and your insights very intriguing and exciting.
Please keep up the good work.
God Bless you. (Even though it is obvious He already has)
Blest New Year’s to you, too.
I have never replied in your thread, but trust me when I say I find your work and your insights very intriguing and exciting.
Please keep up the good work.
God Bless you. (Even though it is obvious He already has)
J
Javl
Guest
God Bless you Simeon for your excellent work. In a way I envy you for your God given gift of understanding. I pray that all could ( including me ). Again, thank you.
Meanwhile, have a very happy 2010. May you achieve all your hopes and goals and may God Bless you and yours abundantly.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Meanwhile, have a very happy 2010. May you achieve all your hopes and goals and may God Bless you and yours abundantly.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
I would like to thank both of you for your very kind words; I find them very humbling, encouraging, you’ve made me happy and grateful. Most of all though I must give the credit to God for such gifts that He has given me because if I don’t my ego really starts getting in the way.
I only wish to say that the Holy Spirit is very very real and the better I get at leaving my ego and my own wishes out of my prayers, the better have become the outcomes far exceeding anything I could ever have dreamed up. :heaven:
I only wish to say that the Holy Spirit is very very real and the better I get at leaving my ego and my own wishes out of my prayers, the better have become the outcomes far exceeding anything I could ever have dreamed up. :heaven:
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
Is anyone else interesting in in further discussing Symeon? In particular LK 22:31-32 “And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and when you have returned, strengthen your brethren.”
From Strongs the primary word is exaiteomai, and it means: to demand (for trial):–desire.
How is it that Satan can go to God and demand Symeon? Why does God let Satan have him?
Who and what is Satan?
It’s a very rich segment of scripture and I find quite bequiling; Jesus forsees that Symeon (The proper spelling, I discovered.) will fall away, two verses later is when the Lord tells Symeon that he will deny Him thrice.
Then He says when Symeon returns to strengthen his brethren. Is this happening because of his appointment in MT 16:18? Thus Symeon will be the greatest threat to Satan when Jesus has completed His mission and returns to God.
It seems manifest that when someone is lost to Christ it doesn’t matter how lost they are, so long as they are lost they are not a threat to Satan.
This seems like further evidence that Symeon is to be the leader of the apostles.
What did Symeon go through while he was being sifted like wheat?
Is this one of the final steps required for Symeon the disciple to become Peter the Apostle?
At all events I’m interested in discussing this with others, I find the Satanic request of particular interest.
And if we do discuss it, perhaps it’s time to start a new thread that will bring in other “voices”.
Anyway, these are some quick thoughts off the top of my head.
In my own lifetime, after college, philosophy and Viet Nam I found it difficult to believe in God, I went through what I call my Crucible of Doubt and came out of it a stronger Christian than I otherwise would have been.
From Strongs the primary word is exaiteomai, and it means: to demand (for trial):–desire.
How is it that Satan can go to God and demand Symeon? Why does God let Satan have him?
Who and what is Satan?
It’s a very rich segment of scripture and I find quite bequiling; Jesus forsees that Symeon (The proper spelling, I discovered.) will fall away, two verses later is when the Lord tells Symeon that he will deny Him thrice.
Then He says when Symeon returns to strengthen his brethren. Is this happening because of his appointment in MT 16:18? Thus Symeon will be the greatest threat to Satan when Jesus has completed His mission and returns to God.
It seems manifest that when someone is lost to Christ it doesn’t matter how lost they are, so long as they are lost they are not a threat to Satan.
This seems like further evidence that Symeon is to be the leader of the apostles.
What did Symeon go through while he was being sifted like wheat?
Is this one of the final steps required for Symeon the disciple to become Peter the Apostle?
At all events I’m interested in discussing this with others, I find the Satanic request of particular interest.
And if we do discuss it, perhaps it’s time to start a new thread that will bring in other “voices”.
Anyway, these are some quick thoughts off the top of my head.
In my own lifetime, after college, philosophy and Viet Nam I found it difficult to believe in God, I went through what I call my Crucible of Doubt and came out of it a stronger Christian than I otherwise would have been.
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
In reference to Jesus’ warning to symeon and a section from MT 16:18, I was thinking about…
“you are [petros/rock], and upon this [petra]”
The definitions for petra are basically 3 fold.
And while it is true that symeon denied Christ 3 times, he did so in the courtyard of the High Priest Caiaphas – to even go there he was putting his life on the line. [As an army vet I know how powerful the fear of death is, my first time I froze and a sergeant had to shove me to get me moving.]
PS: For those who don’t know, “In 1990, two miles south of present day Jerusalem, 12 ossuaries in the family tomb of a “Caiaphas” were discovered. One ossuary was inscribed with the full name, in Aramaic of “Joseph, son of Caiaphas”, and a second with simply the family name of “Caiaphas”.[1] After examination the bones were reburied on the Mount of Olives.” From Wikipedia.
In my own studies regarding these ossuaries they were found in a burial site for the wealthy and Joseph Caiaphas’ was an expensive one too. Bible Critics (scholars) are divided and undecided as to the identity of the remains.
A little trivia on ossuaries is that worn out OT Bible book scrolls; which the priests would not put into the trash were buried in ossuaries going as far back as (about) 400BC. I don’t recall how many have been found but it is quite a few. So we have ancient copies which validate the accuracy of contemporary translations.
“you are [petros/rock], and upon this [petra]”
The definitions for petra are basically 3 fold.
- A granite mountain.
- A cliff.
- A person of unbending character.
- Symeon is the granite mountain that Jesus is going to create/build the Body of Christ on.*
- In literary symbolism a cliff is a decision point or a commitment from which there is no turning back.
- In order to be sifted as wheat by Satan it would require a person of unbending character and the prayers of Christ to see symeon through such as ordeal. For even the prayers of Christ cannot work for someone of pliable character, and shaky faith.**
- LK 22:32 “and when you have returned, strengthen your brethren." An explicit instruction for him to strengthen the disciples and it illustrates Symeon’s role as their leader.
And while it is true that symeon denied Christ 3 times, he did so in the courtyard of the High Priest Caiaphas – to even go there he was putting his life on the line. [As an army vet I know how powerful the fear of death is, my first time I froze and a sergeant had to shove me to get me moving.]
PS: For those who don’t know, “In 1990, two miles south of present day Jerusalem, 12 ossuaries in the family tomb of a “Caiaphas” were discovered. One ossuary was inscribed with the full name, in Aramaic of “Joseph, son of Caiaphas”, and a second with simply the family name of “Caiaphas”.[1] After examination the bones were reburied on the Mount of Olives.” From Wikipedia.
In my own studies regarding these ossuaries they were found in a burial site for the wealthy and Joseph Caiaphas’ was an expensive one too. Bible Critics (scholars) are divided and undecided as to the identity of the remains.
A little trivia on ossuaries is that worn out OT Bible book scrolls; which the priests would not put into the trash were buried in ossuaries going as far back as (about) 400BC. I don’t recall how many have been found but it is quite a few. So we have ancient copies which validate the accuracy of contemporary translations.
J
Javl
Guest
Again putting my two cents worth in, may I add that the word for stone in Greek is Lithos and that for rock is** petras**, which is feminine gender. Changing it to masculine gender it becomes petros. The Roman, or Latin translation is Petro which when translated to English is Peter ( from the Italian…Pietro ). In the book “Who’s Who In The Bible” by Joan Comay and Robert Brownrigg, Peter’s name in Aramaic is Simon. Jesus changed it to Cephas, the Aramaic word for rock. The name Peter, then, does not mean pebble, stone, or boulder, it means ROCK. The ROCK on which Jesus built His Church.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
PAX DOMINI
S
Simeon_Hovey
Guest
Javl
I’ve read and reread your words and I respectfully wish that you would state them differently; I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say. I think I’m confused because of being too close to this subject for so long including two previous threads.
And because so much has gone on in my life in recent months (Including 3 deaths.).
Also, I just had an entirely new thought, question and discovery. I present it here for the first time because this has been a very good group.
Jesus words, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” have always held a deep mystery to me because of the seeming absolutes in which it is rendered. I was just looking at the Greek, and maybe everyone one but me knows this, but what it more completely says is:
“It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but [also*] by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”
I’ve read and reread your words and I respectfully wish that you would state them differently; I just don’t understand what you’re trying to say. I think I’m confused because of being too close to this subject for so long including two previous threads.
And because so much has gone on in my life in recent months (Including 3 deaths.).
Also, I just had an entirely new thought, question and discovery. I present it here for the first time because this has been a very good group.
Jesus words, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” have always held a deep mystery to me because of the seeming absolutes in which it is rendered. I was just looking at the Greek, and maybe everyone one but me knows this, but what it more completely says is:
“It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but [also*] by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”
- The Textus Receptus has the Greek word: all. Phonetically alpha, lambda, lambda or as close as possible with English only fonts, ayy with the y’s upside down.
- Status