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fix
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Do you accept God has an ordaining will and a permitting will?
- Status
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drpmjhess
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Pathia, here is a list of books I culled from the library of the seminary where I have taught. You might find some of them useful.
Gramick, Jeannine, Furey, Pat, eds. The Vatican and homosexuality: reactions to the “Letter to the bishops of the Catholic Church on the pastoral care of homosexual persons.” New York: Crossroad, 1988.
Nugent, Robert, and Jeannine Gramick*. Building bridges: gay & lesbian reality and the Catholic Church.* Mystic, Conn.: Twenty-Third Publications, 1992.
Liuzzi, Peter J. With listening hearts: understanding the voices of lesbian and gay Catholics. New York: Paulist Press, 2001.
Stevenson, Thomas B. Sons of the church : the witnessing of gay Catholic men. New York: Harrington Park Press, 2006.
McNeill, John J. The church and the homosexual. 4th ed. Boston: Beacon Press, 1993
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buffalo
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At least one of these authors is barred. Do not utilize these references.
Notification Regarding Fr. Nugent and Sister Gramick
…
Given the failure of the repeated attempts of the Church’s legitimate authorities to resolve the problems presented by the writings and pastoral activities of the two authors, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is obliged to declare for the good of the Catholic faithful that the positions advanced by Sister Jeannine Gramick and Father Robert Nugent regarding the intrinsic evil of homosexual acts and the objective disorder of the homosexual inclination are doctrinally unacceptable because they do not faithfully convey the clear and constant teaching of the Catholic Church in this area. Father Nugent and Sister Gramick have often stated that they seek, in keeping with the Church’s teaching, to treat homosexual persons “with respect, compassion and sensitivity”. However, the promotion of errors and ambiguities is not consistent with a Christian attitude of true respect and compassion: persons who are struggling with homosexuality no less than any others have the right to receive the authentic teaching of the Church from those who minister to them.
The ambiguities and errors of the approach of Father Nugent and Sister Gramick have caused confusion among the Catholic people and have harmed the community of the Church. For these reasons, Sister Jeannine Gramick, SSND, and Father Robert Nugent, SDS, are permanently prohibited from any pastoral work involving homosexual persons and are ineligible, for an undetermined period, for any office in their respective religious institutes.
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of May 14, 1999, granted to the undersigned Secretary, approved the present Notification, adopted in the Ordinary Session of this Congregation, and ordered its publication.
Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, May 31, 1999.
*+ Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect
- Tarcisio Bertone, S.D.B., Archbishop emeritus of Vercelli, Secretary *
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drpmjhess
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Ahhh… the closed Catholic mind, pretending that the Index Librorum Prohibitorum still exists!
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buffalo
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Yessiree! and proud of it.
However, our Catholic faith says not to blindly believe but to test and reason. The Catholic Church has preserved Christ’s teachings faithfully and found the truth which my Catholic mind is very very open to.
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buffalo
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You can find the notification on the Vatican website.
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Joe_Williams
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The true Catholic mind is only open to God and His Church! The letter to the Bishops by then Cardinal Ratzinger expresses what I said from the beginning. The Church embraces homosexuals as any other human being created by God. They are to be treated as any other person suffering. The people who have these tendencies are culpable for their behavior. At some point, the individual, who through his or her own experience realizes that the behavior is unnatural and is a transgression to the Divine law. It is the conviction of the Holy Spirit present in all people that makes it so. There is not now nor ever has been, any Church doctrine which supports the homosexual act. Persons with this orientation are nonetheless to be treated with dignity and respect. However, they must refrain from the transgression against His Holy Law. No amount of argument or social pressure will ever change the mind of God. Give up the fight and try to focus on what He told you: Bring your burdens to the foot of His cross. Wake up people and die right. Take care and Pray hard.
Joe
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Joe_Williams
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Very well put! God is involved in everything. There is nothing that happens by chance. One should never presume to know the mind of God. His Law is immutable. Refusing to obey will only cause yourself pain and hardship now and in the judgment. Think about it… Who are we to judge God? Can we bring a single life into existence? Do we have the power to save one soul? He is our Creator. Try to keep it simple. It is His way or Hell… just a thought.
Joe
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drpmjhess
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That’s why it’s good to read widely. That’s why I recommended some books to Pathia from our seminary library.
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mlchance
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Don’t forget to “Ahhh…” about the one who argues by insult, pretending that he’s actually contributed something meaningful.
– Mark L. Chance.
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drpmjhess
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Absolutely!
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Joe_Williams
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It’s not only good but it is expected that we all “study to show ourselves approved.” We are told from Mother Church early that in order to grow in our faith, we must study and read and pray. Prayer through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and understanding through the guidance of Mother Church will bring about revelation. Through those revelations, one begins to understand the meaning of the Law. The conviction of the Spirit will allow all men to see things as God sees them. Some who have been enlightened seem to have “closed” minds but this is far from the truth. Seeing things as God sees them is a very humbling experience. I would venture a guess that if our homosexual friends would pray hard for the conviction of the Spirit, they too would see things as God really sees them. They may even be less prone to arguing against the Churches position. I have had the opportunity to befriend several homosexually oriented Catholics over the years and the really honest ones will admit that they are afraid to pray for the conviction because they already know what will happen. It is unfortunate for those who believe so. Forgive me for the soapbox speech. I just feel that these individuals are so close to losing their salvation, it makes me very sad. I just want them to understand that God will help them. I want to help them as best I can. I believe everyone is worth saving. I will keep them always in my prayers. Take care, pray hard.
Joe
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fix
Guest
Is it not self evident?
God does not ordain evil or disordered inclinations. He may permit them.
The notion of a “gay gene”, if it exists, does not mean that God ordained such a thing. It means He permits it. One can think of endless examples to understand this concept.
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buffalo
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I suspect that was not your real intention. Recommending books that are not faithful can get a soul to hell in a heartbeat.
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PaulinVA
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fix
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There was once a thread where apologists for the “gay gene” notion claimed that I had no business making the argument I make here because only certain scientists are allowed to define health and disease.
They claim that what happens in nature is natural and therefore “approved” by God as “healthy”. This is what we see here in a way. It seems we cannot agree that man has a nature given by God and that deviations from that do not axiomatically prove God desires each variation. I see it as a philosophical issue, not simply a medical issue.
It denies orginal sin and our fallen world.
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buffalo
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Great post. This is the essence of the faith. The corruption and death humans experience are a result of the fall. Jesus came to heal. Many today have missed this vital understanding.
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drpmjhess
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That’s a silly notion – as if recommending a book could “get a soul to hell”! Catholics no longer have to fear the banning of books. Read widely, discuss and critique books, take the good and discard the dross. When the Church listed books on the Index in the Counter-Reformation, it only served to confer a cachet that made them all the more alluring to read.
I daresay you haven’t even looked at the five books I listed from our seminary library, to consider whether there might be some useful insights in them. That’s like rejecting Huckleberry Finn without reading it.- Status