The general problem discussing morality

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IQ170 said:
And your usage of “nature” is not is usually meant. It has nothing to do with hot stoves, rather an alleged “moral nature”. They are all “naturally” envious, vengeful and brutish. That is what needs to be “chiseled down”.
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“Innate” is the relevant concept, not nature. (though they are related) Natural law is written on our hearts, ie exists as a part of us. That is analogous to our physical body in some senses, and not in others.

This innate natural law is not understood immediately, but has to be learned. A good example is “mine” which is really meant as “not yours” implying the concept “yours.” Possession requires a social order that is implicit in “mine.” It is not chiseled down, but developed out of. It is present, but not understood.
 
I’m using it to mean in a warm and friendly. Since I suggested it, I can clarify, right?
 
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IQ170 said:
without coming to some agreement about the “ethical system” we shall use… there can be no fruitful discussion. We are doomed to talk past each other. Any suggestions?
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Buy some pineapples, mangoes, kiwi and papaya to share.
 
Wozza said:
So if your parents were abusive you still will have to honour them?
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I think you are taking the commandments out of context. Many parents had to do a lot of sacrifices to provide for their children upbringing, education and core values. Without them, many people would never have achieved much of what they have today.

It would be a grave injustice to then abandon them during their senior years, when they need us the most.
 
John10 said:
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Wozza:
So if your parents were abusive you still will have to honour them?
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I think you are taking the commandments out of context. Many parents had to do a lot of sacrifices to provide for their children upbringing, education and core values. Without them, many people would never have achieved much of what they have today.

It would be a grave injustice to then abandon them during their senior years, when they need us the most.
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Is there an asterix alongside the commandment I missed.

Honour your father and mother*

*This assumes that they suffered a lot of sacrifices to provide for your upbringing, education and core values, so that without them you would never have achieved much of what you have today.

**Otherwise…forget it.
 
Wozza said:
Is there an asterix alongside the commandment I missed.
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If you are looking for an Asterix, it seems to suggest you are looking for ways to disregard the law.

All the law of God hangs and depends on the greatest commandments to love God and neighbour. The parents should love their children as they love themselves, the children should love their parents as they love themselves.

If you search for a greatest good meaning of these commandments, then there should be peace in families and communities and peace on Earth.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
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Wozza:
Is there an asterix alongside the commandment I missed.
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If you are looking for an Asterix, it seems to suggest you are looking for ways to disregard the law.

All the law of God hangs and depends on the greatest commandments to love God and neighbour. The parents should love their children as they love themselves, the children should love their parents as they love themselves.

If you search for a greatest good meaning of these commandments, then there should be peace in families and communities and peace on Earth.
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I’m not looking for an asterix. Just pointing out that as it stands, people with abusive parents still have to honour them. John has qualified the commandment to highlight the fact that we should IF they have been good parents.

Do you think that Joseph Fritzel should be honoured by his daughter? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

All the commandments need to be interpreted. They don’t apply to everyone at all times in all circumstances. As a basis for forming a moral framework they need a little work.
 
John10 said:
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Wozza:
All the commandments need to be interpreted.
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Agreed that is why as I had previously stated on another post I rely on Catholic Church teachings, magisterium and doctrine to better understand it’s implications and meaning.

I found the below articles, which seems to provide some guidance to your concerns:

https://catholicexchange.com/honor-father-mother-limit
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Then we don’t have commandments. We have guidlines which ‘need to be interpreted’. Needless to say, one person’s interpretation will rarely align with another’s.
 
Wozza said:
Then we don’t have commandments. We have guidlines which ‘need to be interpreted’. Needless to say, one person’s interpretation will rarely align with another’s.
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We have commandments, however the only one authorized to fully interpret them is the Catholic Church. Catholics are required to fully embrace the Catholic Church teachings, dogmas, doctrines and magisterium.
 
John10 said:
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Wozza:
Then we don’t have commandments. We have guidlines which ‘need to be interpreted’. Needless to say, one person’s interpretation will rarely align with another’s.
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We have commandments, however the only one authorized to fully interpret them is the Catholic Church. Catholics are required to fully embrace the Catholic Church teachings, dogmas, doctrines and magisterium.
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So why did you link to an article with some suggestions on how we approach the problem written by a mental health professional?
 
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You’re constraining the law to the letter in a rigid way.
The law serves love, takes it’s meaning and purpose from love. Christ fulfills the law and gives it a heart of flesh.

You must know that we do not condone abusive parents and the law does not condone that in any way, nor do we honor abusive parents. And you must also know that the commandment is not rigid in that way but rather serves the higher purpose of love in whatever circumstances the person is living. Can you look a little deeper then?

The moral law is not for constriction and enslavement, it opens the way to freedom.
Just as a stop sign might make me late for work, and at the same time contributes to the larger purpose of order and freedom of movement. Kinda like that…
 
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