The Good News According to Calvin

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You know what ALL means
I do, but do you? I asked you to define it.

Does it mean the same thing in Rom 3:23, as it means in Jn 12? Does each passage include, Mary, in its use of “all?”

Define all.
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CHESTERTONRULES:
In John 17 Jesus is praying for his disciples when he refers to those given to him by the father.
He’s referring to all of those given to Him by the Father (cf Jn 6:39).**John 17:20

“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word**
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CHESTERTONRULES:
He places no limit on who will believe in him through their message.
Why should He?**John 17:9

“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;**He puts a limit on those He’s praying for in that He does not pray on behalf of the world. If He came to save the world, why isn’t praying for the world?
 
I’ve already done that, twice, in fact:

See posts 50 and 54
That’s not what you did.

You claimed that because I explained Calvinism in less than a manifesto that I distorted the meaning in some way.

I don’t accept your premise.

I would like you to be more specific and tell me why my assessment of Calvin’s theology is inaccurate.

I don’t think you will because you recognize that I have indeed accurately conveyed the truth.
 
Please tell me where this story is wrong, according to Calvinistic thought.

Two babies are born at the same time in the same hospital. One was born predestined to heaven, the other born predestined to hell. The first, called A, lives a horrible, sinful life. At some point, just before death, irresistable grace overtakes him, and he ends up in heaven. The second, called B, studies the Bible daily. He lives a life of service to others. When he sins, he weeps bitterly and begs for God’s forgiveness. He struggles to live the Beatitudes and the Commandments. In his heart of hearts, he is sure that there is a God and that he is doing what is asked of him to be saved. He has more than accepted Jesus as his savior: he is actively working to bring others to Christ. However, he never gets the irresistable grace and dies and ends up in hell.

Now, where is the problem per Calvin?
 
Please tell me where this story is wrong, according to Calvinistic thought.

Two babies are born at the same time in the same hospital. One was born predestined to heaven, the other born predestined to hell. The first, called A, lives a horrible, sinful life. At some point, just before death, irresistable grace overtakes him, and he ends up in heaven. The second, called B, studies the Bible daily. He lives a life of service to others. When he sins, he weeps bitterly and begs for God’s forgiveness. He struggles to live the Beatitudes and the Commandments. In his heart of hearts, he is sure that there is a God and that he is doing what is asked of him to be saved. He has more than accepted Jesus as his savior: he is actively working to bring others to Christ. However, he never gets the irresistable grace and dies and ends up in hell.

Now, where is the problem per Calvin?
Here is another story…👍

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice
9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

The Scriptures cannot be broken according to Jesus.
 
Most of you are going to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Some of us are going to heaven and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Isn’t that good news?
Or perhaps everyone is going to heaven and there is nothing we can do about it.

Or perhaps nobody is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it.
 
Or perhaps everyone is going to heaven and there is nothing we can do about it.

Or perhaps nobody is going to hell and there is nothing we can do about it.
No perhaps because with have trustworthy revelation from above.😉 🙂 👍

The Philippian Jailer Converted
25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer [6] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. - Acts 16
 
Originally Posted by Reformed
The Scriptures cannot be broken according to Jesus.
This is certainly true. 👍

However, people’s perception of them certainly can be.
I agree with your statement, thus we have the Protestant Reformation. The Catholic Magestrium is made up of people.
 
Most of you are going to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.
No, that’s not what Calvin said. What Calvin said is, “All of you are going to hell and there is something you can do about it–repent and believe. If you repent and believe, you will know retrospectively that God was moving you to do so.”
Some of us are going to heaven and there’s nothing we can do about it.
No, what Calvin said was, “Some of us are going to heaven, because God has moved/is moving us to repent and believe, and is transforming us into the likeness of Christ.”

Caricatures do not advance honest discussion.

Edwin
 
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CHESTERTONRULES:
You know what ALL means
I do, but do you? I asked you to define it.

Does it mean the same thing in Rom 3:23, as it means in Jn 12?

Does each passage include Mary in its use of "all?"

Define all.
40.png
CHESTERTONRULES:
In John 17 Jesus is praying for his disciples when he refers to those given to him by the father.
He’s referring to all of those given to Him by the Father (cf Jn 6:39).**John 17:20

“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word**
40.png
CHESTERTONRULES:
He places no limit on who will believe in him through their message.
Why should He?**John 17:9

“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;**He puts a limit on those He’s praying for in that He does not pray on behalf of the world.

If He came to save the world, why isn’t praying for the world?

.

:coffeeread: .
 
Here is another story…👍

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice
9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

The Scriptures cannot be broken according to Jesus.
Thank you so much for not addressing my question. This scripture does have information in it, however it is not written by Calvin nor does it tell me how my story would be seen by a Calvinist.
 
No, that’s not what Calvin said. What Calvin said is, “All of you are going to hell and there is something you can do about it–repent and believe. If you repent and believe, you will know retrospectively that God was moving you to do so.”

No, what Calvin said was, “Some of us are going to heaven, because God has moved/is moving us to repent and believe, and is transforming us into the likeness of Christ.”

Caricatures do not advance honest discussion.

Edwin
Questions:

Does Calvinist theology teach that God has predestined some men to hell regardless of their actions on earth?

Does Calvinist theology teach that those chosen for heaven, the elect, are protected by God with irresistible grace and that their actions on earth are unrelated to their salvation?
 
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ralphinal:
Please tell me where this story is wrong, according to Calvinistic thought.
Two babies are born at the same time in the same hospital. One was born predestined to heaven, the other born predestined to hell. The first, called A, lives a horrible, sinful life. At some point, just before death, irresistable grace overtakes him, and he ends up in heaven. The second, called B, studies the Bible daily. He lives a life of service to others. When he sins, he weeps bitterly and begs for God’s forgiveness. He struggles to live the Beatitudes and the Commandments. In his heart of hearts, he is sure that there is a God and that he is doing what is asked of him to be saved. He has more than accepted Jesus as his savior: he is actively working to bring others to Christ. However, he never gets the irresistable grace and dies and ends up in hell.
Now, where is the problem per Calvin?
What do you mean, “where is the problem per Calvin?”
 
Would Calvin see this as a possible event? Would he disagree that any of this would happen?
No problem with person A.

However, I would argue that person B was elect, as he exhibits all of the outward signs of the elect.
 
I don’t understand this thread. If you want to know the good news according to Calvin, you need to read the writings of John Calvin. I did list a link to writings of John Calvin. Here’s the 355 links again on Calvin. Please take the time and study.

Do you think the OP distorts the doctrines of Calvinism.

If so, in what way?
 
Questions:

Does Calvinist theology teach that God has predestined some men to hell regardless of their actions on earth?
No. Calvinist theology teaches that God has chosen some for salvation and passed over others (or in some versions, including Calvin’s, predestined them to hell, though people argue over whether Calvin taught a true double-predestination view) without regard to their *foreseen *actions. In other words, in the logical order God’s predestination comes first, and human actions follow. This does not mean that human actions do not make a difference, but that they are themselves the consequences of God’s choice. With regard to election to eternal life, Augustine and Aquinas taught the same thing, though the Catholic tradition avoids speaking similarly of election to damnation, logical as that consequence seems.
Does Calvinist theology teach that those chosen for heaven, the elect, are protected by God with irresistible grace
Yes, but you don’t seem to understand what irresistible grace means. Irresistible grace means that God effectually moves the elect to repent, believe, and persevere.
and that their actions on earth are unrelated to their salvation?
Of course not. Again, you obviously don’t understand what you are talking about.

This is a complex subject, which is why Catholics and Lutherans (more wisely than Calvinists) relegate it to philosophical disputation rather than giving it a prominent place in the preaching of the Gospel. Given the way Calvinists brought this doctrine to the fore, they have only themselves to blame, I suppose, that people proceed to misunderstand their teachings so radically. But misunderstanding is still wrong, even if Calvinists brought it on themselves.

Edwin
 
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