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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Who are the elect?
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Steadfast
Guest
Who can deny that the choice of a willing agent is limited and conditioned by its nature?
Can a dog choose to be a duck or a cat a bird?
Can a sinner, born in sin and at enmity with God, choose to believe without his heart first being changed?
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a_mirror_dimly
Guest
Ok, a great example. Now the question becomes: given everything he thinks, feel, needs, and his concerns (feel free to add other (name removed by moderator)uts), is his decision fixed? If it is, then his behavior is fixed by his circumstances (as his beliefs, but those again are determined by past beliefs and experiences, and so on back to his inital state when he was created).
If his decision is not fixed, then his decision must be arbitrary, for all of the (name removed by moderator)uts which affect his decision have already been accounted for.
Again, a good example, but I turn the the same thing. Add up everything…his emotion, his reason, his beliefs, his senses. Do all of those determine his action? If not, we’ve accounted for everything that would have some influence over the decision, so it must be arbitrary: he could not have known the decision he would have made beforehand, nor account for it afterwards. His life is a series of impulses over which he has no control.
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Steadfast
Guest
You’re moving the goalposts.
Just a moment ago the question was what constituted an inaccuracy or distortion, now it’s just inaccuracy.
But here you go: distortion IS inaccuracy and all the more evil for your stated intent.
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sandusky
Guest
[SIGN]AMEN!![/SIGN]
Or, speaking biblically, of course, can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? (Jer 13:23)
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sandusky
Guest
Those chosen by the Father, in Christ, before the foundation of the world, to be His church
(Eph 1:3ff).
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Steadfast
Guest
A Calvinist would say that the human will is perfectly free to choose what it wants according to its nature but that the human nature is fallen and dead and cannot choose to believe without it first being regenerated.
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Bill_Jackson
Guest
Calvinists, like all evangelicals, believe that salvation comes by accepting a Person; while Catholicism teaches one must accept dogma to be saved.
Bill Jackson, cecmotc@juno.com
Bill Jackson, cecmotc@juno.com
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Steadfast
Guest
Okay, this is just inaccurate.
Some Evangelicals believe that “salvation comes by accepting…Christ”.
Calvinists (and Lutherans, ftr) believe that salvation comes objectively to people and that their acceptance is just the subsequent affirmation of what God has, in the first place, already done in them.
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RobHom
Guest
Cute… but while the exact words are not present…the interpretation of the statement amounts to exactly that. I guess you speak a different English than the rest of us…
Not sure who you are agreeing with, but I know its not me.
I don’t think you understand the subject or possibly even the word “predestination”… here’s a bit of it that denies your viewpoint and opinion.
We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784), all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact (Denz., n. 607). Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil (Denz., n. 797). Just as it is God’s true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794), not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096), or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294), though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795). Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect (Denz., n. 322), yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816). Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363), so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321). God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins (Denz., n. 322), though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807), or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827). As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631). Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect (Denz., nn. 805 sq., 825 sq.).
Really…but Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect…
So, tell me…do you really think we believe what you do? If your answer is yes, please grant me the privilege of correcting your misconceptions…purely for educational reasons. Go to this link:
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm dropping down about halfway down the page you will find these words: The reprobation of the damned. Begin reading there. You can of course read the whole page, but I wanted to direct you to the relevant part first.
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Reformed
Guest
Those chosen before the foundations of the world. Only God knows who are the elect with complete knowledge.
Matthew 24:22 (Show me Matthew 24)
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matthew 24:24 (Show me Matthew 24)
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:31 (Show me Matthew 24)
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:20 (Show me Mark 13)
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
Mark 13:22 (Show me Mark 13)
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27 (Show me Mark 13)
And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
Luke 18:7 (Show me Luke 18)
And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
Romans 8:33 (Show me Romans 8)
Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
Romans 9:11 (Show me Romans 9)
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Romans 11:7 (Show me Romans 11)
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Romans 11:28 (Show me Romans 11)
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
1 Timothy 5:21 (Show me 1 Timothy 5)
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
2 Timothy 2:10 (Show me 2 Timothy 2)
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1 (Show me Titus 1)
Greeting
Paul, a servant[1] of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,
[1]Or slave; Greek bondservant
1 Peter 1:1 (Show me 1 Peter 1)
Greeting
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Peter 1:3 (Show me 2 Peter 1)
Make Your Calling and Election Sure
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[1] his own glory and excellence,[2]
[1]Or by [2]Or virtue
2 Peter 1:10 (Show me 2 Peter 1)
Therefore, brothers,[1] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
[1]Or brothers and sisters. The plural Greek word adelphoi (translated “brothers”) refers to siblings in a family. In New Testament usage, depending on the context, adelphoi may refer either to men or to both men and women who are siblings (brothers and sisters) in God’s family, the church
2 John 1:1 (Show me 2 John 1)
Greeting
The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all who know the truth,
2 John 1:13 (Show me 2 John 1)
The children of your elect sister greet you.
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RobHom
Guest
You are attempting make this more difficult than it is. I’m not sure if you have ever studied psychology, but if you have, you would be aware of the rules of Maslow’s Hierarchy, and how things come into play. I guess what I should just simply say… the man who’s family is starving is going to make a decision. He is either going to steal the food, breaking the Commandment, or he is going to let his family starve while obeying the Commandment. No matter how you paint it, color it, or spin it, he is going to make the decision, for better or worse, he is going to make it. But each and every man will make that decision based on his own parameters. Not predestination.
Possibly, but there are some variables that are uncounted for, or rather possibilities. One might react one way, another might react the opposite, one might do half of each (shoot but not kill), whereas one might decide to kill, then change his mind, then say “oh what the heck”…and do it.
Simply put…no matter how complicated we try to make it, God made us, each and every one of us with this nifty little thing called “Free Will”. He turned us loose on His world and lets us decide what we want to do…whether good, bad, in between, indifferent… or whatever. We are even able to change our minds about lots of things, make 180’s in life good to bad, bad to good.
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RobHom
Guest
So, then we are right back where we started… You have no say in the matter. You can live and do as you please…cuz you may or may not be one of the elect. Shaaaaazzzzaammmmmmm!!
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a_mirror_dimly
Guest
Each man is going to take an action. That we can be sure of (even if that action is to curl up in a ball and do nothing at all).
Your second to last statement very much what I’m driving at. “Every man will make the decision based on his own parameters”. So, would you agree that given his own parameters and the (name removed by moderator)ut, his decision is determined?
I never meant to imply that two different people might not do the same thing in the same situation. My point was that I was including the individual person’s state (including personality) in the equation. My point was, what happens when you throw every factor that you think I might’ve forgotten into the equation? Given enough state, internal as well as external, is the outcome determined?
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Reformed
Guest
I think you are not considering the Scriptures. The words “elect” and “chosen” are biblical words and therefore, doctrine in the Scriptures.
Please do a word search on bible.com, esv.org, etc. God put these words in the Scriptures for a reason.
Before discussing Calvinism, I would suggest that you discuss this with Michael. He has a very solid understanding of these issues from a Catholic perspective.
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sandusky
Guest
Concerning the one point I made concerning Catholic predestination (it’s not on the basis of “foreseen merit”), yes.
Thanks; the exact words were not present.
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RobHom
Guest
If I understand you correctly as to what “the choice of a willing agent” is… I can deny that the agent is limited and conditioned by its nature. Everyday life is denial of that concept. I have this notion that you are trying valiantly to make this very “esoteric”. Its not.
Perhaps you would like to read the biographies of many people, and see how that concept is bogus. One that I can think of that really blows that idea out of the water is: The current President of Brazil…who started out impoverished and shined shoes in the streets…and worked his tail off and is now the President of Brazil and highly respected.
Not relevant. Bad contrast. Invalid. A leopard cannot change his spots either. Neither can a man or a woman change sexes 100%, or at all at the flip of a switch. But, more important to the subject, critters are not humans, therefore…you are not dealing with the same thing
Why not? Do you mean to infer that one must go through one of these heart wrenching tear jerking you gonna die in hell fire and damnation sermons in a tent with some guy screaming at you kind of epiphany sorta thingy and be scared out of your wits before you can decide to believe in God?
People led to just about anything by the use of emotion are normally the first to bail out and go the other way…
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RobHom
Guest
But still the fact remains…we do not believe what you believe. Did you bother to read the information?
And yet a literal interpretation of the what I posted says precisely what I said.
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sandusky
Guest
I know; pity for you.
Yes.
Don’t think so.
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RobHom
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- You are chosen before the foundation of the world.
- You may be chosen to reside in heaven.
- You may be chosen to reside in hell.
- You have no choice in the matter.
- Its already been decided.
- Predestination has determined that nothing you can or will do makes a lick of difference.
- You can dress up a pig…
- Status