The Good News According to Calvin

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CHESTERTONRULES said:
How about staying under complete control while picking fights?

What is a forum, anyway?

Remember what Jesus did to the money changers in the temple.

In comparison, I feel as if I am being quite constrained.
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A forum is a place for discussion, and sometime those forums have rules. In particular, the rules for this forum call for charity and discussion, not provocation and taunting:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1029044&postcount=3

However, back to the discussion. You say that you define free will as the ability to make choices. An important follow up question, you you believe that our choices are deterministic? That is, do you believe that our perceptions and preferences uniquely determine how we will respond to a situation, or do you believe that given that exact same set of (name removed by moderator)uts, a person might not always make the same decision?
 
RobHom said:
Why, pray tell, would I want to “read” a bible that is untrue to the original texts and mutated to fit the agenda of someone who “created” a man-made theology???:eek:

Hmmmm, you think the OP is a mischaracterization??? If so and you are a “calvinist”…then I suspect you know not of what you speak nor do you actually know what you believe:

calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

Clearly enough, without including the LIP, you have no choice in the matter either way. According to Calvin… you are a piece of useless human excrement wholly incapable of redemption, nothing you can do will ever change it, and he further prognosticates that God is a vicarious and whimful God who picks and chooses who will go to heaven and who won’t on a whim.

Believe, don’t believe, sin, don’t sin, live in a cave, stand on your head…according to calvinism, it doesn’t matter what you do…you have just as much chance as the person who does the opposite…because nothing you do affects the outcome.
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:nope: those who go to hell, choose hell, those who believe to eternal life, choose to believe to eternal life.
 
sandusky said:
:nope: those who go to hell, choose hell, those who believe to eternal life, choose to believe to eternal life.
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Not at all. If you “actually read” what is posted on that link…thats not at all what it says. It says you have zero choice in the matter. English is my first language, I am fluent and educated. I understand the language in its written form.

You can dress up a pig, put lipstick on it, but in the end, its still a pig.

Your quote above is in complete and total contravention of what appears at that link:

**The Calvinist asks the question, “In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?” The answer is, “He cannot. Therefore God must predestine.” **

Further:

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

And you are trying to tell us that you, a Calvinist, can CHOOSE Heaven or hell? That’s not what the T&U in tulip say…not at all.
 
Are we discussing the writings of John Calvin or the 5 points of Calvinism. They are not the same things.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Me… a heretic?
 
Reformed said:
Are we discussing the writings of John Calvin or the 5 points of Calvinism. They are not the same things.
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LOLOLOLOL…thank you for the gooooood laugh. I guess now, you are going to try and utilize “obfuscation” and try and “justify” a weird theology?? Calvin is Calvin…and the only other Calvin is this one:

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.memeticians.com/2008/05/08/Calvin_and_Hobbes_comics_cartoons_f.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.memeticians.com/2008/05/comics-in-the-classroom.php&h=768&w=1024&sz=91&tbnid=SxA45Bqf_scJ::&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCalvin%2Band%2BHobbs&hl=en&usg=__BluCObHODfkoUIQmywYNikC3o8s=&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1
 
a_mirror_dimly said:
A forum is a place for discussion, and sometime those forums have rules. In particular, the rules for this forum call for charity and discussion, not provocation and taunting:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1029044&postcount=3

However, back to the discussion. You say that you define free will as the ability to make choices. An important follow up question, you you believe that our choices are deterministic? That is, do you believe that our perceptions and preferences uniquely determine how we will respond to a situation, or do you believe that given that exact same set of (name removed by moderator)uts, a person might not always make the same decision?
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I believe that we are created in God’s image with the ability to choose randomly. I believe that there are an array of choices and that we rarely make the absolute best choice available to us.

I know that the (name removed by moderator)uts are not exactly identical, but I sometimes randomly choose a different route to work for no apparent reason.

I’m not sure if this is relevant…?
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Most of you are going to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Some of us are going to heaven and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Isn’t that good news?
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That is a terrible misrepresentation.

This is better:
  1. Everyone is a sinner.
  2. God is perfectly Holy and Righteous and sin is so totally contrary to His nature that He cannot tolerate it and His only response to it is judgment and wrath; therefore everyone (without exception) deserves only death and hell.
  3. In His mercy however, just as with Noah and later with Israel, He has made provision for the redemption and preservation of a people to be called by His name; these He has in these last days, covered with the righteousness of His own Son and has made to them the sure promise of eternal life in Jesus.
 
Reformed said:
Do you have the free will to be the next President of the United States?
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Actually yes, as long as you are a natural born American Citizen. Natural born means that your parents were also American Citizens and you were born in the United States.

It is not an issue of free will that you would actually be POTUS, it is the issue of free will that you would and could aspire to be POTUS. Just as one can decide freely not to even consider it. 🙂
 
Steadfast said:
That is a terrible misrepresentation.

This is better:
  1. Everyone is a sinner.
  2. God is perfectly Holy and Righteous and sin is so totally contrary to His nature that He cannot tolerate it and His only response to it is judgment and wrath therefore everyone (without exception) deserves only death and hell.
  3. In His mercy however, just as with Noah and later with Israel, He has made provision for the redemption and preservation of a people to be called by His name; these He has in these last days, covered with the righteousness of His own Son and made the sure promise of eternal life in Jesus.
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The meaning is the same.

God created us. If he created us with no possibility of salvation, then it is his doing, not ours.

Please point out the specific disagreement you have with my description.

Is it the stark reality, or is there a factual misrepresentation?

Here it is:
Most of you are going to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.
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Some of us are going to heaven and there’s nothing we can do about it.
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Isn’t that good news?
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I’m not a Calvinist… but it looks like the Strawman is back, alive and well at CAF.
 
But He did not create us with no possibility of salvation.

Adam was created in perfect peace and joyful union with Him.

Adam sinned, and as the old primer says, “In Adam’s fall, we sinned all”.

And the Catholic church with its Augustinian belief in Concupiscence agrees though it does appear to have gotten away from the idea that the state itself is sinful and not just the acts coming from it.

It’s actually the Catholics and those like them who are inconsistent and have departed from the Biblical standard here.
 
Steadfast said:
But He did not create us with no possibility of salvation.

Adam was created in perfect peace and joyful union with Him.

Adam sinned, and as the old primer says, “In Adam’s fall, we sinned all”.

And the Catholic church with its Augustinian believe in Concupiscence agrees though it does appear to have gotten away from the idea that the state itself is sinful and not just the acts coming from it.

It’s actually the Catholics and those like them who are inconsistent and have departed from the Biblical standard here.
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Are you saying that all men have the opportunity for salvation?
 
I’m not a Calvinist, but if I were one I would say that everyone has the responsibility to believe the Gospel though some will not.
 
Steadfast said:
But He did not create us with no possibility of salvation.

Adam was created in perfect peace and joyful union with Him.

Adam sinned, and as the old primer says, “In Adam’s fall, we sinned all”.

And the Catholic church with its Augustinian belief in Concupiscence agrees though it does appear to have gotten away from the idea that the state itself is sinful and not just the acts coming from it.

It’s actually the Catholics and those like them who are inconsistent and have departed from the Biblical standard here.
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Let’s see what the bible says about your position:

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
I believe that we are created in God’s image with the ability to choose randomly. I believe that there are an array of choices and that we rarely make the absolute best choice available to us.

I know that the (name removed by moderator)uts are not exactly identical, but I sometimes randomly choose a different route to work for no apparent reason.

I’m not sure if this is relevant…?
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Well, here’s what I’m getting at (and no, I’m not going to claim to have the answer, because I’m unsure of it myself). If free will simply means that we make random choices in spite of the evidence before us, is that random behavior any more “free” than determinism?

The concept of free will has always been a conundrum for me on an intellectual level. When I break it down, it seems that are decision making is either deterministic or arbitrary, and in neither case does it seem there’s an act of will involved. When you factor out not only our senses and our beliefs, but also our predispositions (did we chose those? if so, what would that mean?), then it would seem that all our decisions are either fixed our the result of a coin flip. Judging us on the outcome of a bunch of coin flips seems equally hopeless to judging us on a predetermined outcome.

I don’t fully understand how to resolve this, or have the answers, but the best explanation I believe is that we are subject to determinism and free will. It seems to me that these beliefs are both a necessary consequence of God’s creation of us and His existence outside the scope of time (which He created).
 
I really don’t have a dog in this fight but it annoys me no end when someone tells others what they believe and then persists in telling them what they believe even when they tell him they do not.

CR has drawn conclusions from a faulty understanding of Calvinism and now would have all Calvinists admit to them.
 
Steadfast said:
I really don’t have a dog in this fight but it annoys me no end when someone tells others what they believe and then persists in telling them what they believe even when they tell him they do not.

CR has drawn conclusions from a faulty understanding of Calvinism and now would have all Calvinists admit to them.
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That is absolutely not true.

Go to reform’s post and read the link he provided.

Once you do you will see that I have accurately portrayed Calvinism.

It appears to me that you are the one that has a faulty understanding of Calvinism.
 
a_mirror_dimly said:
Well, here’s what I’m getting at (and no, I’m not going to claim to have the answer, because I’m unsure of it myself). If free will simply means that we make random choices in spite of the evidence before us, is that random behavior any more “free” than determinism?

The concept of free will has always been a conundrum for me on an intellectual level. When I break it down, it seems that are decision making is either deterministic or arbitrary, and in neither case does it seem there’s an act of will involved. When you factor out not only our senses and our beliefs, but also our predispositions (did we chose those? if so, what would that mean?), then it would seem that all our decisions are either fixed our the result of a coin flip. Judging us on the outcome of a bunch of coin flips seems equally hopeless to judging us on a predetermined outcome.

I don’t fully understand how to resolve this, or have the answers, but the best explanation I believe is that we are subject to determinism and free will. It seems to me that these beliefs are both a necessary consequence of God’s creation of us and His existence outside the scope of time (which He created).
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Calvinism denies free will, which is why I find it dangerous.

I have seen firsthand the damage it can do.
 
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