The Good News According to Calvin

  • Thread starter Thread starter CHESTERTONRULES
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Please tell me where this story is wrong, according to Calvinistic thought.

Two babies are born at the same time in the same hospital. One was born predestined to heaven, the other born predestined to hell. The first, called A, lives a horrible, sinful life. At some point, just before death, irresistable grace overtakes him, and he ends up in heaven. The second, called B, studies the Bible daily. He lives a life of service to others. When he sins, he weeps bitterly and begs for God’s forgiveness. He struggles to live the Beatitudes and the Commandments. In his heart of hearts, he is sure that there is a God and that he is doing what is asked of him to be saved. He has more than accepted Jesus as his savior: he is actively working to bring others to Christ. However, he never gets the irresistable grace and dies and ends up in hell.

Now, where is the problem per Calvin?
The problem is that if person B is truly a repentant believer whose good works stem from love of God and neighbor, then obviously that person has received grace according to Calvinist theology. Irresistible grace is something that moves you to act in a certain way. You are reading a modern, antinomian version of evangelicalism back into Calvinism, and this is completely unfair. Your critique is at the level of “Catholics think they can buy salvation.” You need to understand what you are criticizing before you charge off on your holy crusade.

Edwin
 
No problem with person A.

However, I would argue that person B was elect, as he exhibits all of the outward signs of the elect.
Thanks. So Calvin might say that if someone acts like the elect, he probably is, but we cannot be sure that a sinner is not among the elect as we do not know when he will repent?
 
The problem is that if person B is truly a repentant believer whose good works stem from love of God and neighbor, then obviously that person has received grace according to Calvinist theology. Irresistible grace is something that moves you to act in a certain way. You are reading a modern, antinomian version of evangelicalism back into Calvinism, and this is completely unfair. Your critique is at the level of “Catholics think they can buy salvation.” You need to understand what you are criticizing before you charge off on your holy crusade.

Edwin
Thank you for the reply. I am not the one on the Crusade, that is ChestertonRules. I was trying to get some understanding. If I wanted to attack the Calvinist postion, which I am not intending to do on this, I would point out that if God presestines someone to hell by with holding grace, then God cannot will the salvation of all men at the same time.
 
Thank you for the reply. I am not the one on the Crusade, that is ChestertonRules. I was trying to get some understanding. If I wanted to attack the Calvinist postion, which I am not intending to do on this, I would point out that if God presestines someone to hell by with holding grace, then God cannot will the salvation of all men at the same time.
Ohh… Michael states Roman Catholic theology teaches something very similar about sustaining and perserving grace given to the elect of God only. Where is that Catholic Calvinist when you need him? 🤷
 
Thanks. So Calvin might say that if someone acts like the elect, he probably is, but we cannot be sure that a sinner is not among the elect as we do not know when he will repent?
In the upper room, did Peter and the other 10 apostles know that Judas was the apostate prior to Jesus telling him? This seems to be another account that Jesus loved John more than Peter. 🙂 What up with John anyways to speak that way?

One of You Will Betray Me
21 After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 22 The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. 23 One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table close to Jesus, [5] 24 so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus [6] of whom he was speaking. 25 So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” 26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” 28 Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. 29 Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
-John
 
Thanks. So Calvin might say that if someone acts like the elect, he probably is, but we cannot be sure that a sinner is not among the elect as we do not know when he will repent?
Yes. I once heard an argument among two Calvin scholars as to whether Calvin thought you could be sure that someone was reprobate. It seems that Calvin did occasionally speak this way about people who opposed and persecuted what he regarded as true Christianity (such as the Duke of Guise). But generally Calvinists would say that you can’t be sure. You can’t even necessarily be absolutely sure about someone else’s election, since they could be hypocrites, but you can be pretty sure–and of course you are supposed to be sure in your own case.

One criticism of Calvinism as it worked out practically (particularly among the Puritans, who emphasized the visible signs of godliness more than some other Calvinists) is that it fostered hypocrisy, because people learned to use lots of religious jargon and flaunt their religiosity in order to convince themselves and others that they were truly godly. Of course, Puritan writers were aware of this problem and talked about how to deal with it. As you probably now, Max Weber made the further argument that the Puritans also saw hard work and honesty and consequent success as signs of election, and he thought that modern capitalism developed as Calvinist-influenced societies became secular, losing the supernatural context for these values but retaining the values themselves. This is a very controversial argument–in my opinion Weber took certain passages in certain Puritan writers out of context, ignoring for instance the constant stress in Calvinism on the fact that the godly have a cross to bear and will be persecuted, and that worldly values count for nothing with God; and Weber admitted that his argument did not apply to Calvin himself. But one can I think make a legitimate argument that a flaw of Calvinism as it works itself out practically is (paradoxically) a tendency to emphasize outward works and forms as signs of godliness. Augustinian Catholics and Lutherans, while also believing in predestination (at least to eternal life) “before foreseen merits,” do not do this in the same way.

But it is very unfair, in my opinion, to suggest that Calvinism as a whole tends to lead to antinomianism (disregarding morality). It may seem like it should to those who don’t understand it well, but in fact it very rarely does (any theology is going to have just about every conceivable practical result in at least some cases). By and large, Calvinists are among the most morally focused (even neurotically obsessed) of Christians.

Edwin

P.S. Sorry for not looking at the name on the post I was responding to in my other post!
 
No. Calvinist theology teaches that God has chosen some for salvation and passed over others (or in some versions, including Calvin’s, predestined them to hell, though people argue over whether Calvin taught a true double-predestination view) without regard to their *foreseen *actions. In other words, in the logical order God’s predestination comes first, and human actions follow. This does not mean that human actions do not make a difference, but that they are themselves the consequences of God’s choice. With regard to election to eternal life, Augustine and Aquinas taught the same thing, though the Catholic tradition avoids speaking similarly of election to damnation, logical as that consequence seems.

Yes, but you don’t seem to understand what irresistible grace means. Irresistible grace means that God effectually moves the elect to repent, believe, and persevere.

Of course not. Again, you obviously don’t understand what you are talking about.

This is a complex subject, which is why Catholics and Lutherans (more wisely than Calvinists) relegate it to philosophical disputation rather than giving it a prominent place in the preaching of the Gospel. Given the way Calvinists brought this doctrine to the fore, they have only themselves to blame, I suppose, that people proceed to misunderstand their teachings so radically. But misunderstanding is still wrong, even if Calvinists brought it on themselves.

Edwin
You did nothing but agree with my points as far as I can discern.

Your complaint is apparently my verbage, not the meaning of my post.
 
No, that’s not what Calvin said. What Calvin said is, “All of you are going to hell and there is something you can do about it–repent and believe. If you repent and believe, you will know retrospectively that God was moving you to do so.”

No, what Calvin said was, “Some of us are going to heaven, because God has moved/is moving us to repent and believe, and is transforming us into the likeness of Christ.”

Caricatures do not advance honest discussion.

Edwin
Edwin,

As much as I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut I am afraid you’re beating your head against a wall.

I have been saying this for 6 pages or so and CHESTERTONRULES continues to prefer his cartoons.
 
Edwin,

As much as I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut I am afraid you’re beating your head against a wall.

I have been saying this for 6 pages or so and CHESTERTONRULES continues to prefer his cartoons.
You know as well as I do that this is not true.

I have responded to your comments with concrete answers then you change your position.

You claim that I distorted Calvinist doctrine in my original post.

You then go on to agree with the original post in different words.

It’s a simple question.

Tell me SPECIFICALLY what is inaccurate in my post.

I’ll wait patiently, again.
 
Edwin,

As much as I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut I am afraid you’re beating your head against a wall.

I have been saying this for 6 pages or so and CHESTERTONRULES continues to prefer his cartoons.
I agree. :yup:
 
But it is very unfair, in my opinion, to suggest that Calvinism as a whole tends to lead to antinomianism (disregarding morality). It may seem like it should to those who don’t understand it well, but in fact it very rarely does (any theology is going to have just about every conceivable practical result in at least some cases). By and large, Calvinists are among the most morally focused (even neurotically obsessed) of Christians.

Edwin

P.S. Sorry for not looking at the name on the post I was responding to in my other post!
Thanks for the post on the issue Edwin! 🙂

For those who think Calvinism leads to antinominism, please study the issues. I think antinominism is a bi-product of Arminianism and is not found in Reformed circles. Don’t you remember the Lordship controversay started about 15 years ago by John MacArthur? He jumped ship from Arminianism to Calvinism. All of those who fought against Lordship salvation came from the Arminian camp. Lordship has always been the Reformed position. Have you guys read books by the Puritans? They were on the far opposite end of antinomianism. Heck, I am reading a book by John Owen on mortfying the flesh from the verse in Romans 8. I think mainstream evangelicalism will agree with my posting.
 
You know as well as I do that this is not true.

I have responded to your comments with concrete answers then you change your position.

You claim that I distorted Calvinist doctrine in my original post.

You then go on to agree with the original post in different words.

It’s a simple question.

Tell me SPECIFICALLY what is inaccurate in my post.

I’ll wait patiently, again.
For the record:

God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.

-John Calvin
 
For the record:

God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.

-John Calvin
And Paul Rom 9:22-26. :hmmm:
 
Edwin & Steadfast:

GIve up. Chesterton hears what he wants to hear and tunes out the rest. It’s a constant.
 
It is the duty of every Christian to receive the Lord’s Supper as often as he can. - John Wesley

You will find many Reformed Churches partake in the Lord’s Supper every Sunday. It is also considered a means of grace and a sacrament in most Reformed Churches. The Reformed Baptist will have a different practice and position on the subject.
 
40.png
ralphinal:
Thank you for the reply. I am not the one on the Crusade, that is ChestertonRules. I was trying to get some understanding. If I wanted to attack the Calvinist postion, which I am not intending to do on this, I would point out that if God presestines someone to hell by with holding grace, then God cannot will the salvation of all men at the same time.
That’s correct.
 
You did nothing but agree with my points as far as I can discern.

Your complaint is apparently my verbage, not the meaning of my post.
So you understand that for Calvinists grace affects how we behave?

In that case, what is your complaint? That a lifelong sinner who repents late in life will be saved, while another person can live an outwardly righteous life and be damned? That is not Calvinism. That’s just Christianity.

If you’re objecting to the predestination part (as I do), please explain briefly how the Calvinist view of predestination differs from the views of Augustine and Aquinas. (It does, but your posts haven’t shown any sensitivity to those nuances.)

Edwin
 
As with Catholic Predestination.

As with Catholic Predestination.

As with Catholic Predestination.
Your trite and pedantic response indicates clearly your lack of understanding the issue, especially where Catholics are concerned. In case you “failed to notice” Catholicism regards “calvinism” as a whole as “heresy”.
Not true.
Then you truly fail to understand that which believe.

So you are saying that the t & u parts of tulip as I posted from that calvinist site are false and erroneous?

If this is the case, are you willing to tell the owner of that site that he is in error, does not know what he is talking about, and further …you want a retraction of the information and for it to be posted correctly? If not… you are talking to your hand.
As with Catholic Predestination.
As with Catholic Predestination.
As with Catholic Predestination.
You remind me of a child. :whackadoo: :whackadoo: :choocho: :choocho:

Face it sport…you just can’t handle the fact that the published information available concerning your “ersatz theology”. Not my fault you don’t understand what it says… Perhaps a refresher course on English comprehension at the local grade school might be of benefit?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top