The Good News According to Calvin

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I think Sandusky is giving a more Baptist interpretation here.
Edwin,

Maybe the problem is that Sandusky doesn’t really understand Calvinism…he certainly seems to object to Calvinist facts and the iteration of those facts…directly from a Calvinist website. And if he is doing it from a Baptist perspective…you have cleared up much of the pettifoggery. If that is the case, there is little wonder why he has so little understanding and factual knowledge about Catholicism and its beliefs.
Anyway, until you find a Calvinist to tell me I’m wrong, I don’t see why I should listen to you. You are not a Calvinist or, as far as I know, an expert on Calvinism. You have one Calvinist and one person with a Ph.D. in the study of the Reformation telling you that you are wrong. Don’t you think a little more study might be in order?
At the risk of being “catty”, I would suggest not bandying about about a Phd. In most circles a Phd/Ph D…translates to “piled higher & deeper”. I honestly have a sister in law that proves it. 🙂

And then again, maybe his confusion about what he purportedly believes is due to all the rife and strife in calvinism itself, considering that you have Arminianism, Infralapsarians, Huguenots, Camisards, Albigensians, Presbyterians, Bohemians and Hungarians…maybe some others to boot, that all seem to have modified calvinism to suit their own particular whims…🙂
 
Maybe the problem is that Sandusky doesn’t really understand Calvinism.
Or maybe that you jump to conclusions. I was forewarning myself against possible criticisms that I made Calvinism sound too much like Catholicism by saying that I have met Calvinists who would agree with my summary even if Sandusky didn’t. I did not suggest that Sandusky didn’t really understand Calvinism, and in fact Sandusky did not criticize my statement, so it’s not even an issue.
At the risk of being “catty”, I would suggest not bandying about about a Phd. In most circles a Phd/Ph D…translates to “piled higher & deeper”.
You are welcome to have the opinion that spending years studying a subject and being tested by those already masters of it is irrelevant. I do not mention having a Ph.D. often. But in this case it is relevant, and I am not going to be bullied out of mentioning it. If people choose to embrace a particularly silly and unthinking form of American egalitarianism, that is their problem. I don’t expect people to listen to me implicitly because I have a Ph.D. As long as people argue based on evidence and logic, I don’t mention it. But when they simply reject what I say because it doesn’t fit their prejudices, I’m going to start mentioning credentials.

In short: yes, you were extremely catty, and you owe me an apology. I did not mention my credentials in an arrogant or inappropriate way. I spent many years of my life earning a Ph.D., and I’ll be darned if I let people disrespect it without telling them what for!
And then again, maybe his confusion about what he purportedly believes is due to all the rife and strife in calvinism itself, considering that you have Arminianism, Infralapsarians, Huguenots, Camisards, Albigensians, Presbyterians, Bohemians and Hungarians…maybe some others to boot, that all seem to have modified calvinism to suit their own particular whims…🙂
That’s a hodge-podge of terms. Albigensians and Bohemians are not Calvinists (well, there were Bohemian Calvinists, but I think you’re talking about the Hussites). Hungarians are not a theological division within Calvinism, just one national group many of whom embraced Calvinism. Camisards were Huguenot guerillas. Huguenots were just French Calvinists. Presbyterianism is a form of polity, not a theological division, though it may be true that some theological opinions are more common among Presbyterians than among, say, German Reformed. Arminianism is an offshoot of Calvinism, but for that matter Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. The infralapsarian/supralapsarian debate is a very abstruse one within Calvinism, just as Catholics have arguments between Thomists and Molinists, etc.

One could in fact say with justice that this list of yours was “piled higher and deeper.”:mad:

Calvinism is generally more theologically homogeneous than Catholicism. That’s one of my problems with it.

Edwin
 
This is kind of a funny thread. I still didn’t know if we are discussing the work of John Calvin, Calvinism, 5 points of Calvinism, etc.

Correct me if you guys think differently, but the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation are not dependent on Calvinism. One doesn’t need to be a Calvinist to be a saved Protestant Christian. Heck, you don’t even need to be a Protestant to be united to Christ for eternity. And you don’t even need to believe that you are eternally secured to be saved.

I think if Roman Catholics want to challenge historic Protestantism, they need to debate the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation as compared to the 5 points of Calvinism. In addition, the 5 points of Calvinism is just part of a systematic theology that does not stand apart from the emphasis of the sovereignity and glory of God.
 
You are welcome to have the opinion that spending years studying a subject and being tested by those already masters of it is irrelevant. I do not mention having a Ph.D. often. But in this case it is relevant, and I am not going to be bullied out of mentioning it. If people choose to embrace a particularly silly and unthinking form of American egalitarianism, that is their problem. I don’t expect people to listen to me implicitly because I have a Ph.D. As long as people argue based on evidence and logic, I don’t mention it. But when they simply reject what I say because it doesn’t fit their prejudices, I’m going to start mentioning credentials.

In short: yes, you were extremely catty, and you owe me an apology. I did not mention my credentials in an arrogant or inappropriate way. I spent many years of my life earning a Ph.D., and I’ll be darned if I let people disrespect it without telling them what for!
My, my…having a rough day? There was really no “disrespect” intended…it was “tongue in cheek” humor…
That’s a hodge-podge of terms. Albigensians and Bohemians are not Calvinists (well, there were Bohemian Calvinists, but I think you’re talking about the Hussites). Hungarians are not a theological division within Calvinism, just one national group many of whom embraced Calvinism. Camisards were Huguenot guerillas. Huguenots were just French Calvinists. Presbyterianism is a form of polity, not a theological division, though it may be true that some theological opinions are more common among Presbyterians than among, say, German Reformed. Arminianism is an offshoot of Calvinism, but for that matter Protestantism is an offshoot of Catholicism. The infralapsarian/supralapsarian debate is a very abstruse one within Calvinism, just as Catholics have arguments between Thomists and Molinists, etc.
One could in fact say with justice that this list of yours was “piled higher and deeper.”:mad:
Did you ever take a moment to think that you and other non-Catholics react as badly or worse to these kinds of equivocations than we do when you bandy things about? Touche on you.
Calvinism is generally more theologically homogeneous than Catholicism. That’s one of my problems with it.
Really, I find that a bit of a stretch…
Rob
 
What is “mainstream evangelicalism”? These days it is certainly what you would call “Arminian” if it’s anything (which I would call watered-down Calvinism).

The problem is that Arminianism is not really one thing. It has popped up in different sectors of Protestantism at different times, with different theological starting points.

Wesleyans, for instance, are not antinomian at all. Are we Arminians? Traditionally we have called ourselves that. Charles Finney, on the other hand, repudiated the term but arguably was more “Arminian” (in the sense of being less Augustinian) than Wesley.

As I see it, the antinomian wing of evangelical Protestantism is “Arminian” in the sense that they’ve rejected at least three of the traditional five points of Calvinism. But they usually believe in eternal security, which is not an Arminian position. The problem is that they take forensic justification from classic Protestantism in general, eternal security from Calvinism, free will from Arminianism, and an emphasis on a conversion experience from the broad Pietist/evangelical tradition as a whole, and combine them into a noxious mix.

Edwin
Quite true, I worshipped at Calvary Chapel for years before I went into Reformed circles. We are Chrstians who know in part. I’m glad we are not saved by our pefect knowledge of the Infinite God.
 
My, my…having a rough day? There was really no “disrespect” intended…it was “tongue in cheek” humor…
OK!
Did you ever take a moment to think that you and other non-Catholics react as badly or worse to these kinds of equivocations than we do when you bandy things about? Touche on you.
No. Touche on that big straw man you just lunged at over my left shoulder.
Really, I find that a bit of a stretch…
How much Calvinist theology have you read? Of course they differ, and of course we can argue over what is really “Calvinist.” And of course it’s not got the kind of institutional unity Catholicism has. But to say that an author is “Calvinist” tells me more about the theology I’ll find in their writings than to say that the author is Catholic. And as I said, I don’t think this is good. Calvinists insist on way too much agreement on very speculative issues like predestination, and then they get upset with Catholics and Lutherans for insisting on belief in the Real Presence:rolleyes:

Edwin
 
Yeah, it is…

How about those Mets?:rolleyes:
Yep…did God cause them to fail, did He permit it, or were the Mets predestined to lose? In a bigger race for the Presidency, how about Romans 13 in light of the election?
 
Quite true, I worshipped at Calvary Chapel for years before I went into Reformed circles. We are Chrstians who know in part. I’m glad we are not saved by our pefect knowledge of the Infinite God.
I think that maybe right along about now, it might be a good idea if you could explain what the differences are. It might save some headaches and misunderstandings.

Lets leave the scripture quotes out, and just deal with “logistical” information…OK?🙂
 
Yep…did God cause them to fail, did He permit it, or were the Mets predestined to lose?
Maybe they just blew it?
In a bigger race for the Presidency, how about Romans 13 in light of the election?
In the application of the entire chapter…none of the current ones would even be considered…
 
Maybe they just blew it?

In the application of the entire chapter…none of the current ones would even be considered…
Not so fast… help me understand what you are saying about this comming election and Romans 13? Do you know who was the governing authority when Paul wrote Romans 13?
 
OK!..

No. Touche on that big straw man you just lunged at over my left shoulder.
Ahhh but I sense the point made it home… 🙂
How much Calvinist theology have you read?
In all honesty, not enough to win a debate…
Of course they differ, and of course we can argue over what is really “Calvinist.” And of course it’s not got the kind of institutional unity Catholicism has.
That I gathered. And that is also what makes understanding some people difficult or easy to misread…“which one are they?”
But to say that an author is “Calvinist” tells me more about the theology I’ll find in their writings than to say that the author is Catholic. And as I said, I don’t think this is good.
OK… could you explain that?
Calvinists insist on way too much agreement on very speculative issues like predestination, and then they get upset with Catholics and Lutherans for insisting on belief in the Real Presence:rolleyes:
On that point I can agree with you wholeheartedly!!!

Rob
 
Not so fast… help me understand what you are saying about this comming election and Romans 13? Do you know who was the governing authority when Paul wrote Romans 13?
I really don’t want to get into a political discussion mentioning anymore than I already have… 🙂
 
This is kind of a funny thread. I still didn’t know if we are discussing the work of John Calvin, Calvinism, 5 points of Calvinism, etc.

Correct me if you guys think differently, but the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation are not dependent on Calvinism. One doesn’t need to be a Calvinist to be a saved Protestant Christian. Heck, you don’t even need to be a Protestant to be united to Christ for eternity. And you don’t even need to believe that you are eternally secured to be saved.

I think if Roman Catholics want to challenge historic Protestantism, they need to debate the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation as compared to the 5 points of Calvinism. In addition, the 5 points of Calvinism is just part of a systematic theology that does not stand apart from the emphasis of the sovereignity and glory of God.
I have a bigger issue with TULIP than with protestantism in general.

TULIP denies man’s responsibility for working out his own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
I have a bigger issue with TULIP than with protestantism in general.

TULIP denies man’s responsibility for working out his own salvation with fear and trembling.
Get in line next to my dear Arminian protestant brothers. If you finish that verse with verse 13, you will see the Scripture in another light. 👍

For my dear Arminian brothers, you are closer to Roman Catholicism then me. 🙂 I have more anathemas from the Council of Trent than you do. 🙂
 
That’s correct.
I wish you people would quite confusing me. If God does not will the salvation of all men, explain this verse

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. —1 TIMOTHY 2:3-5.

Either God wants us all in heaven but some of us resist or God does not want us all in heaven and Scripture is wrong.

Please help again.
 
I wish you people would quite confusing me. If God does not will the salvation of all men, explain this verse

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. —1 TIMOTHY 2:3-5.

Either God wants us all in heaven but some of us resist or God does not want us all in heaven and Scripture is wrong.

Please help again.
Calvinists believe that God has always wanted some of us in Hell.

They don’t accept this scripture as written.
 
I think that statement is pretty close to intentional slaner which is sin against God.
Feel free to correct it. In my opinion it is accurate, but I could be wrong.

If you prove me wrong, I will concede my error.
 
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