The greatest freedom is freedom from worldly pleasures!

[Robert_Sock]

Sainthood is proof that one is in heaven, so what youre telling everyone is unless we do as you claim we need to do, we will not get into heaven?

No, not at all. I have already emphasized several times that not all worldly pleasures are sinful. All I’m saying is that if you read the lives of canonized saints you will find that most abstained from worldly pleasures and I’m suggesting to people that we try to emulate their examples. I highly recommend watching the following Stations of the Cross by Saint Francis of Assisi for more encouragement:

youtube.com/watch?v=oZ9om4YElns

 

[Robert_Sock]

What specifically is it about The Imitation of Christ that makes you feel that people do not try to put it into practice? Also, what about people putting into practice The Stations of the Cross by St Francis of Assisi?

youtube.com/watch?v=oZ9om4YElns

 

[Bookcat]

People can mock me if they wish, but what I say is in The Imitation of Christ,

One must read the Imitation of Christ with care and with understanding the context and the intended audience, the meaning of the terms used etc etc…as well the full context of the Teachings of the Church.

 

[Bookcat]

The

Is pleasure something to be sought simply as an end in itself? No.

But is pleasure a good given and willed by God in its right and ordered context?

Yes.

Did Saints enjoy things in life?

Yes.

A person who has been baptized into Christ and is living in his grace and life - is a saint. They are holy. Can they too enjoy good things in life?

Yes.

What about those striving to be ever more and more holy?

Yes.

Do they also deny themselves?

Sure.

Are we to live moderately?

Yes

Catechism:

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: “Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart.” Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: “Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites.” In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Are we to avoid sinful pleasures?

Yes.

Did God give us good things to enjoy and be thankful for?

Yes.

As St. Paul notes in Sacred Scripture:

God “richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy”.

~ Saint Paul - 1st Letter to Timothy 6:17

ewtn.com/v/bible/search_bible.asp

Yes we are to enjoy…and yes in an ordered way as God has given.

Doing so in the right way of course (not via sin) - such is part of the will of God for us.

Let us keep that in mind…along with the right understanding of self denial etc.

And let us “and be thankful” too…as Paul tells us.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I agree but I think you need to expand on what you call “Joy in life.” For me, I feel the urge to sacrifice worldly pleasures in order to enjoy the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Anticipating, and working towards, Heaven is also a worthwhile joy.

Our joys.change as we progress. Or perhaps what we thought were joys were only small fixes. Joynof listening tons gentle rain seems deepernto me than joy from a video game. Many worldly pleasures can be easily “sacrificed” she we realize they no longer satisfy as they once seemed to. But a fundamental joy is a simple joy that is not dependent on what we are doing.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Is pleasure something to be sought simply as an end in itself? No.

But is pleasure a good given and willed by God in its right and ordered context?

Yes.

Did Saints enjoy things in life?

Yes.

A person who has been baptized into Christ and is living in his grace and life - is a saint. They are holy. Can they too enjoy good things in life?

Yes.

What about those striving to be ever more and more holy?

Yes.

Do they also deny themselves?

Sure.

Are we to live moderately?

Yes

Catechism:

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: “Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart.” Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: “Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites.” In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

Are we to avoid sinful pleasures?

Yes.

Did God give us good things to enjoy and be thankful for?

Yes.

As St. Paul notes in Sacred Scripture:

God “richly furnishes us with everything to enjoy”.

~ Saint Paul - 1st Letter to Timothy 6:17

ewtn.com/v/bible/search_bible.asp

Yes we are to enjoy…and yes in an ordered way as God has given.

Doing so in the right way of course (not via sin) - such is part of the will of God for us.

Let us keep that in mind…along with the right understanding of self denial etc.

And let us “and be thankful” too…as Paul tells us.

Should a person be willing to sacrifice worldly pleasures in order to “earn” the higher-ordered pleasures of the Holy Spirit? Do not those living a monastic lifestyle expected to sacrifice the worldly pleasure of the senses?

Can you please explain the following scripture from the Bible:

“Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”
-John 12:25

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Sorry, but this is disordered.

St John of the Cross wrote about detachment from pleasures, he was speaking about the detachment of making them an end of themselves.

He was not talking about detaching from the pleasure of having a cool drink of water on a warm day, or the comfort of a fire on a cold winter’s night.

He wasn’t talking about enjoying the taste of the food we eat, but rather, placing a disordered importance in the experience of eating.

Also, sexual intercourse between a wife and her husband is not for the sole purpose of pro-creating, there is also the unitive expression of love between the two. Not every couple can procreate, but God doesn’t demand that they abstain from sexual relations with each other.

We’re not all called to live on locust and wild homey, wear burlap and dump ashes over our heads.

We’re to take what God gives us in gratitude, they are His gifts.

To reject them is to offend God, just as a son would offend his parents for the gifts they gave him at Christmas by rejecting them.

We can enjoy a beautiful sunset and give thanks to God for the pleasure.

St Francis of Assisi, lived poor, but still enjoyed the nature around him to the point of naming them brothers and sisters. Brother Sun, Sister Moon, comes to mind here.

Jim

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Robert Sock:

Can you please explain the following scripture from the Bible:
“Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.”
-John 12:25

It is a hyperbole, similar to “hating our father and mother, wife and children” Luke 14:26

It is a rhetorical device to grab attention but not to be taken literally.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Sorry, but this is disordered.

St John of the Cross wrote about detachment from pleasures, he was speaking about the detachment of making them an end of themselves.

He was not talking about detaching from the pleasure of having a cool drink of water on a warm day, or the comfort of a fire on a cold winter’s night.

He wasn’t talking about enjoying the taste of the food we eat, but rather, placing a disordered importance in the experience of eating.

Also, sexual intercourse between a wife and her husband is not for the sole purpose of pro-creating, there is also the unitive expression of love between the two. Not every couple can procreate, but God doesn’t demand that they abstain from sexual relations with each other.

We’re not all called to live on locust and wild homey, wear burlap and dump ashes over our heads.

We’re to take what God gives us in gratitude, they are His gifts.

To reject them is to offend God, just as a son would offend his parents for the gifts they gave him at Christmas by rejecting them.

We can enjoy a beautiful sunset and give thanks to God for the pleasure.

St Francis of Assisi, lived poor, but still enjoyed the nature around him to the point of naming them brothers and sisters. Brother Sun, Sister Moon, comes to mind here.

Jim

For whatever it may be worth, every time I forgo worldly pleasures I feel greatly blessed. This does not mean that I shut my heat off in the winter or shut my air conditioning off in the hot summer, but that I live very modestly when it comes to unnecessary pleasures like enjoying football and enjoying and worshiping material things like a luxury car.

 

[Bookcat]

Should a person be willing to sacrifice worldly pleasures in order to “earn” the higher-ordered pleasures of the Holy Spirit?

It is not so earning. Grace remains grace. Even the good we do - is his gift.

Yes sure.

That does not mean though that one must not say drink a beer or go to a movie etc.

 

[Bookcat]

Can you please explain the following scripture from the Bible:

I will do better than that and let then Pope Benedict XVI explain it :

" Jesus said, “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life” (Jn 12: 25). Thus, if we can die to our selfishness, if we refuse to withdraw into ourselves and make our life a gift to God and to our brethren, we too will be able to know the rich fruitfulness of love. And love does not die."

–Pope Benedict XVI

from vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20080423_card-trujillo_en.html

“Dear brothers and sisters, this is the demanding way of the Cross that Jesus points out to all his disciples. On several occasions he said, “If anyone wants to serve me, let him follow me”. There is no alternative for the Christian who wishes to fulfil his vocation. It is the “law” of the Cross, described with the image of the grain of wheat that dies in order that new life may germinate; it is the “logic” of the Cross, recalled also in today’s Gospel: “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life”. “To hate” one’s life is a strong and paradoxical Semitic expression that clearly emphasizes the radical totality which must distinguish those who follow Christ and, out of love for him, put themselves at the service of their brethren. They lose their life and thus find it. There is no other way to experience the joy and the true fruitfulness of Love: the way of giving oneself, of self-giving, of losing oneself in order to find oneself.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090329_magliana_en.html

 

[JimR-OCDS]

For whatever it may be worth, every time I forgo worldly pleasures I feel greatly blessed. This does not mean that I shut my heat off in the winter or shut my air conditioning off in the hot summer, but that I live very modestly when it comes to unnecessary pleasures like enjoying football and enjoying and worshiping material things like a luxury car.

But this is different than your original posts.

Worshiping material things, would be disordered in the spiritual life.

However, you stated that enjoyment in eating, rather than just to maintain life, and that sex was purely for pro-creation, not enjoyment is not what God intended.

We enjoy the flavor of food, that’s why God gave us taste buds, but we don’t put the enjoyment of eating before love of God or neighbor.

Yes, we’re to be open to life, but sexual relations between a wife and husband are more than procreation, it’s also the unitive expression of love between them. It is pleasurable and nothing wrong in enjoying that pleasure.

Modest living is a good virtue, but we don’t have to live in destitution as a means of growing closer to God.

Jim

 

[bardegaulois]

People can mock me if they wish, but what I say is in The Imitation of Christ, and is consistent with the lives of many of the saints! Would John the Baptist watch football while drinking beer and eating pizza? Righteousness comes in many levels and much of our worldly pleasures, although permissible, are stumbling blocks when it comes to living a saintly life!

How would you describe a saintly life?

You evident missed Chapter 2 - On Personal Humility, then:

The more complete and excellent your knowledge, the more severe will be God’s judgement on you, unless your life be the more holy. Therefore, do not be conceited of any skill or knowledge you may possess, but respect the knowledge that is entrusted to you. If it seems to you that you know a great deal and have wide experience in many fields, yet remember that there are many matters of which you are ignorant. So do not be conceited,(Rom 11:20) but confess your ignorance. Why do you wish to esteem yourself above others, when there are many who are wiser and more perfect in the Law of God? If you desire to know or learn anything to your advantage, then take delight in being unknown and unregarded.

A true understanding and humble estimate of oneself is the highest and most valuable of all lessons. To take no account of oneself, but always to think well and highly of others is the highest wisdom and perfection. Should you see another person openly doing evil, or carrying out a wicked purpose, do not on that account consider yourself better than him, for you cannot tell how long you will remain in a state of grace We are all frail; consider none more frail than yourself.

Inordinate personal pleasures are not your spiritual problem, Robert. Your pride in your dislike of modest personal pleasures is. And that is a far greater spiritual malady than enjoying an occasional football game or pint of beer.

 

[Robert_Sock]

You evident missed Chapter 2 - On Personal Humility, then:

The more complete and excellent your knowledge, the more severe will be God’s judgement on you, unless your life be the more holy. Therefore, do not be conceited of any skill or knowledge you may possess, but respect the knowledge that is entrusted to you. If it seems to you that you know a great deal and have wide experience in many fields, yet remember that there are many matters of which you are ignorant. So do not be conceited,(Rom 11:20) but confess your ignorance. Why do you wish to esteem yourself above others, when there are many who are wiser and more perfect in the Law of God? If you desire to know or learn anything to your advantage, then take delight in being unknown and unregarded.

A true understanding and humble estimate of oneself is the highest and most valuable of all lessons. To take no account of oneself, but always to think well and highly of others is the highest wisdom and perfection. Should you see another person openly doing evil, or carrying out a wicked purpose, do not on that account consider yourself better than him, for you cannot tell how long you will remain in a state of grace We are all frail; consider none more frail than yourself.

Inordinate personal pleasures are not your spiritual problem, Robert. Your pride in your dislike of modest personal pleasures is. And that is a far greater spiritual malady than enjoying an occasional football game or pint of beer.

You’re being awfully judgemental here. Talk about twisting things to your own advantage!

 

[Robert_Sock]

But this is different than your original posts.

Worshiping material things, would be disordered in the spiritual life.

However, you stated that enjoyment in eating, rather than just to maintain life, and that sex was purely for pro-creation, not enjoyment is not what God intended.

We enjoy the flavor of food, that’s why God gave us taste buds, but we don’t put the enjoyment of eating before love of God or neighbor.

Yes, we’re to be open to life, but sexual relations between a wife and husband are more than procreation, it’s also the unitive expression of love between them. It is pleasurable and nothing wrong in enjoying that pleasure.

Modest living is a good virtue, but we don’t have to live in destitution as a means of growing closer to God.

Jim

I was very clear in saying that not all worldly pleasures are unlawful, but that it was saintlike to forego them to gain the higher-ordered pleasures of the Holy Spirit and to experience the joy in believing in the World-to-Come. For example, St Paul is clear that in today’s life husband and wife should avoid sex as if they were not married.

 

[bardegaulois]

You’re being awfully judgemental here. Talk about twisting things to your own advantage!

To my advantage? Robert, I say this for your advantage. I shouldn’t have to, though; a spiritual director, a necessity for anyone wishing to live a more ascetic life, should be saying such things. Has he not, or are you too holy to submit to an agent of the Church in this regard?

The academic, the deacon, and the Carmelite on this post are in accord here, Robert. Though your motivation in desiring to live more ascetically is good, the way you are going about it, as evidenced by your posts on this subject, is likely to lead you to ruin. Your pride here is unmistakable. For the sake of your own soul, please do this properly.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is not so earning. Grace remains grace. Even the good we do - is his gift.

Yes sure.

That does not mean though that one must not say drink a beer or go to a movie etc.

I never implied that it is in any way unlawful to do such things, but that it’s more saintlike to avoid them.

 

[Robert_Sock]

It is a hyperbole, similar to “hating our father and mother, wife and children” Luke 14:26

It is a rhetorical device to grab attention but not to be taken literally.

Well, I for one despise this lowly life and I feel it be foolish to love it.

 

[bardegaulois]

Well, I for one despise this lowly life and I feel it be foolish to love it.

Yep. Gnosticism. I knew it. Your pride is now leading into heresy. Next thing you know, you’ll be saying that the physical world is too mean and paltry for the Divine, Who did not think it foolish to love our lowly estate, to inhabit and denying the Incarnation. We’ve been here before, and we’ve done that.

Understand that what you’re preaching here is not Catholicism. Indeed, it’s not even any form of credal Christianity. You really need to go have a talk with an intelligent cleric sometime.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Did anybody have the chance to view and comment upon The Stations of the Cross by St Francis of Assisi?

youtube.com/watch?v=oZ9om4YElns