The Holiness of the Virgin Mary

[FranciscoN2001]

One of the biggest arguments between Catholics and Non-Catholics is over Mary. Catholic tradition says Mary ascended into Heaven, but Protestants argue there is no Biblical or historical proof for this and that they pray that Mary is in Heaven.
In defense of Mary
-Born without Sin
-Mother of Jesus Christ in flesh
-Always said “yes” to God the Father
-Only virgin to give birth in the history of man
-Loved Jesus more than anyone in existence possibly could have
-Had absolute faith that Jesus would resurrect from the dead on the third day

If Mary didn’t go to Heaven we are all doomed, in my opinion.

 

[Dan_Defender]

I agree. Besides, she is mentioned in the book of revelation: the woman crowned with the twelve stars in heaven, etc.

 

[GospelOfMatthew]

”A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, With the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars."

• Rev. 12:1

”You are the glory of Jerusalem you are the splendid boast of our people God is pleased with what you have wrought. May you be blessed by the Lord Almighty forever and ever.”

• Judith 15:9-10

 

[adf417]

Ask any Protestant if all Christians should believe Billy Graham is in heaven and see where this goes.

Peace!!!

 

[Dlee]

Ask any Protestant if all Christians should believe Billy Graham is in heaven and see where this goes.

This is different - protestants would say Billy’s soul is in heaven and will be joined with his heavenly body after Christ’s return and final judgment. Mary’s physical body was assumed to heaven at death - and I understand this is not required belief. One only has to be open to the possibility that not everything we as Catholics believe is recorded in the written Bible - that is where tradition comes in.

 

[Dlee]

A protestant would say Mary’s soul is in heaven.

 

[guanophore]

One of the biggest arguments between Catholics and Non-Catholics is over Mary. Catholic tradition says Mary ascended into Heaven,

No.

Mary is a creature. Only God could ascend into heaven by His own power. Mary had to be assumed - taken up - by her own dear Son.

Protestants argue there is no Biblical or historical proof for this

Protestants suffer from Sola Scriptura, and therefore, have a truncated understanding of the faith of the Apostles, which was whole and entire before a word of the New Testament was ever written.

As far as the historical proof, given the predilection of Catholics for their relics, could anyone believe that, if there were remains here of the mother of the Lord, they would not be venerated?

They ignore the historical proof that is evident in the faith of the Church for 2000 years!

Mary’s physical body was assumed to heaven at death - and I understand this is not required belief.

Not required by whom? For whom?

One only has to be open to the possibility that not everything we as Catholics believe is recorded in the written Bible

This is certainly a start!

 

[Dlee]

Required by the Catholic Church - I thought

 

[ColorMomma]

If she wasn’t assumed, where is her grave? No historical record of such a place.

 

[FranciscoN2001]

Imagine taking seven Old Testament books out of the Bible and then having the nerve to act all sola scriptura and condemn the Catholic Church for having traditions outside of scriptures that the Catholic Church itself put together at the Council of Nicaea

 

[po18guy]

Poor souls they are! Where in the bible does it say that everything must be in the bible? Where in the bible does it dictate what the table of contents is? Where in the bible does it specify the names and numbers of the books? For that matter, where does the bible mention a collection known as the bible?

It does not. That and much more is a man-made idea.

Oh, and Mary was “assumed” into Heaven. Ascension is by one’s own power. Mary is a creature and must be assumed into Heaven by a power outside of herself.

 

[guanophore]

Imagine taking seven Old Testament books out of the Bible and then having the nerve to act all sola scriptura and condemn the Catholic Church for having traditions outside of scriptures that the Catholic Church itself put together at the Council of Nicaea

In defense of our separated brethren, the vast majority have no clue how the canon was formed, nor do they care. Many of them think that Catholics added those books, in direct violation to the Scriptural command not to do so!

“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book…” Revelation 22:18

They are also taught that there are no such things as Sacred Traditions - they are all man made traditions that Jesus condemned and that Catholics are STILL letting them interfere with the Word of God.

 

[Lee1]

I find it hard to imagine that following death of the body any person even going straight to heaven would suddenly become endowed with the knowledge that only God has. Therefore I would suggest that no one knows much more than has been given in the scriptures.

There are few certainties, God exists.

 

[guanophore]

I find it hard to imagine that following death of the body any person even going straight to heaven would suddenly become endowed with the knowledge that only God has.

Are you saying that Catholics believe that Mary has become endowed with knowledge that only God has?

Therefore I would suggest that no one knows much more than has been given in the scriptures.

This is the point that was being made up the thread. If God did not reveal more than was given in the Scriptures, then there would be no scriptures!

 

[Lee1]

Are you saying that Catholics believe that Mary has become endowed with knowledge that only God has?

No I’m not. I’m saying that no mortal knows much at all about the workings of God or His kingdom other than what were told in the scriptures.

I didn’t mention Mary, but She exists according to many saints revelations, and I’ve been helped after praying to her so I have thanked Her assuming that it was Her that helped me.

Everyday I read people stating things as though they are indisputable facts. I’m saying that no one knows much outside of the information given to us in scriptures. To me that body of fact looks like an inverted triangle the tip of which being the information in the bible.

‘If God did not reveal more than was given in the Scriptures, then there would be no scriptures!’
Sorry, I don’t understand this.

 

[guanophore]

I’m saying that no mortal knows much at all about the workings of God or His kingdom other than what were told in the scriptures.

If this is true, then there would be no point to establishing a Church, since she does not know enough to guide us into heaven. There would also be no point in having the guidance of the Fathers, Doctors and saints who have gone one before us, as they cannot guide us either!

I didn’t mention Mary, but She exists according to many saints revelations, and I’ve been helped after praying to her so I have thanked Her assuming that it was Her that helped me.

This seems odd. You are saying that the workings of God cannot be known outside the Scripture, yet you are asking intercession from someone who is a minor figure in the book of the Acts of the Apostles?

I’m saying that no one knows much outside of the information given to us in scriptures.

You say this, but admit your actions are otherwise?

To me that body of fact looks like an inverted triangle the tip of which being the information in the bible.

As important as the Scriptures are, Catholics are not “people of the book”.

Therefore I would suggest that no one knows much more than has been given in the scriptures.
[/quote]

Sorry, I don’t understand this.

Please refer to posts 9 & 10 above.

 

[Lee1]

If this is true, then there would be no point to establishing a Church, since she does not know enough to guide us into heaven. There would also be no point in having the guidance of the Fathers, Doctors and saints who have gone one before us, as they cannot guide us either!

I think perhaps this comment is an oft used device of stretching a point to break it. Moderation and compromise is better.
Jesus started our Church, he said two things, love God, love your neighbour. He also told us how difficult it would be to gain salvation and gave us some ideas about how we could best achieve it.
You’re saying that Father’s, Doctors and saints have guided us in the right way, I’m saying that I have no way of knowing that is true. I can only guess or use a positive bias when reading what they say, but these were all humans, mortals. Some of what they say may make sense but only if I want it to, bias in other words, not facts.

I prayed to Mary because we are told that She was the Mother of God by the Church and scripture. I asked Her, She appeared to help. That’s all I can say.

Why doesn’t God just tell us repeatedly one generation after another exactly how things are? Everyone says freewill would be compromised, ok. Then someone like say St Pio pops up in history, what happened to his freewill? And many other saints also, similarly they were also used by God to do His will in various ways. So by that I’d think that the reason why we aren’t all given in depth information to prevent ambiguity isn’t about compromising our freewill. And I have no idea why either. Which is of course cue for yet more guesswork, and on a different thread.

 

[Lee1]

As important as the Scriptures are, Catholics are not “people of the book”.

I take it you mean that we are not people of one book, the bible.
No I’ve noticed, there is the Catechism as well. And many other books.

And what is their basis? The words of Jesus and His apostles. So many books.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Dlee, the Assumption of Mary body and soul into Heaven is a Dogma of the Church and this is most certainly a required belief!

I think you may be confusing it with the belief that Mary experienced physical death on earth before being assumed body and soul into heaven. It is not necessary to believe that she was physically dead and was then assumed body and soul into Heaven. She may have simply completed the course of her life on earth and then been assumed body and soul into Heaven without actually dying. It’s fine to believe either way. But you MUST believe she was assumed body and soul into Heaven. It’s a required dogma.

 

[guanophore]

I think perhaps this comment is an oft used device of stretching a point to break it. Moderation and compromise is better.

I suppose that depends upon your point of view. The Catholic Church does not have the liberty to reject what has been entrusted to her by the revelation of God.

Jesus started our Church, he said two things, love God, love your neighbour. He also told us how difficult it would be to gain salvation and gave us some ideas about how we could best achieve it.

This seems like a bit of a readers digest version. He did much more than “give us some ideas”. One of them is that we cannot achieve our own salvation. Another is He established a Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

You’re saying that Father’s, Doctors and saints have guided us in the right way, I’m saying that I have no way of knowing that is true.

If you cannot know these Truths entrusted to the Church, then you also cannot “know” things about the Scriptures (see posts 9&10 above).

I can only guess or use a positive bias when reading what they say, but these were all humans, mortals. Some of what they say may make sense but only if I want it to, bias in other words, not facts.

You are in company with most Protestants, who reject the part of Revelation that was not committed to writing in the Holy Scriptures. One has to wonder, however if you cannot trust what the Church teaches about these things as “facts”, then how can one accept the Scriptures, when they are based upon it?

I prayed to Mary because we are told that She was the Mother of God by the Church and scripture.

Really? Where do the Scriptures say that Mary was the Mother of God?

Why doesn’t God just tell us repeatedly one generation after another exactly how things are?

Jesus left His Church to guide the faithful of each generation into the One Truth.

the reason why we aren’t all given in depth information to prevent ambiguity isn’t about compromising our freewill. And I have no idea why either. Which is of course cue for yet more guesswork, and on a different thread.

I think it is related to trust, and whether or not one will accept the authority that Jesus appointed.

As important as the Scriptures are, Catholics are not “people of the book”.

More accurately, the person and work of Jesus. The Scriptures give witness to this work, as does the Sacred Tradition.