The Holy Spirit a "she" - Gender Inclusive Language or political agenda during mass?

[estesbob]

If we want to look at the real problem here, it is that humans have designated a gender for God throughout history. God is not confined to gender as we humans are. The only reason that we call God father is because it is impossible for us to comprehend a gender-less God having a son with Mary. For humans, it only makes sense that a man and a woman have a child. But for God, gender doesn’t matter, God is beyond that.

Also, I can understand calling God a he since Jesus was a man, but just because Jesus was male doesn’t mean that God is exclusively male.

Finally, if we are going to designate genders for God, then it does make sense to refer to the Holy Spirit as a she because it is referred to as such throughout the majority of scripture.

If anyone has a problem with calling God a “she” then they should also have a problem with calling God a “he” because God is NOT confined to any specific gender.

Jesus Called God his “Father” . That would indicate “he” would it not? And if the spirit is a “she” we have some huge theological problems with the Virgin birth, don’t we?

Can you give us some verses where the Holy spirit is referred to as “she”

 

[johnnykins]

A large part of the problem is that GENDER, i.e, masculine, feminine and neuter is, an artifact of linguistics - NOT Biology. Yes, many people confuse gender with sex, but they are unrelated. For example in French the word for book is masculine - but a book has no sex which is a biological attribute. Likewise, in Russian “book” is feminine - but it still has no sex, merely gender. With these languages that use gender it is also usual to use the masculine/feminine pronouns - he/she for masculine/feminine words. In modern English gender corresponds only with sex - a male takes the masculine gender; a female takes the feminine gender and all sexless things take the neuter gender - hence the confusion in English between sex and gender. THAT IS NOT THE WAY IT IS IN OTHER LANGUAGES. ( I won’t get into old constructs such as the feminine applied to ships, etc.)

So Sophia is feminine in Greek and if the pronoun is used would take “she” in a literal translation. It is merely an artifact of linguistics and says nothing - beyond the limited knowledge of readers/translators or the politics of same - about the sex of the Wisdom of God. It conflates two different concepts - sex and gender due to the rules in English being different from the rules in Greek, e.g.

So I suggest a priest who fadodles with pronouns is either ignorant or politically motivated - or both. I could say the same thing for those who get too torqued up about using “She” for Wisdom, implying sex to the “Father” when the term is clearly metaphorical (though for pronoun purposes “He” is totally appropriate and “She” is a linguistic mishmash). Further, the official translations are what should always be used at Mass.

In short - let’s leave the politics out and realize that gender is simply a language effect - and not a commentary on the sex of God.

 

[jmcrae]

Women are created female in the image and likeness of God - I read that in Genesis 1:27. Moses wrote that, and I certainly don’t think we can accuse Moses of being a feminist.

If women can be created in the image and likeness of God, then God must also have a feminine image, in addition to His masculine image. The Scriptures acknowledge this quite freely. So does the Church.

I don’t see a need to fear the feminine side of God, or think that somehow the feminists are taking over, when people acknowledge and use this ancient feminine imagery of God.

 

[rpp]

[Emphasis by me]

I disagree that wisdom = Holy Spirit. I repeat, wisdom is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and it is gendered feminine.

The Holy Spirit is God. God is Masculine.

The Church, in it’s official teachings, share your disagreement.

Referring to the Third Person of the Trinity is a heresy. It was declared such some time in the 10th or 12th century. I will do some research to get the date, the names and the particulars.

Christ is the only member of the Triune God with an actual gender. However, all the persons of the Trinity are referred to using male pronouns. To do otherwise is not correct and diminishes God’s transcendence above all creation.

 

[johnnykins]

The Church, in it’s official teachings, share your disagreement.

Referring to the Third Person of the Trinity is a heresy. It was declared such some time in the 10th or 12th century. I will do some research to get the date, the names and the particulars.

Christ is the only member of the Triune God with an actual gender. However, all the persons of the Trinity are referred to using male pronouns. To do otherwise is not correct and diminishes God’s transcendence above all creation.

Christ was a MALE - that is NOT gender that is SEX. His gender just happens to be masculine because in English a male takes the masculine gender. “GENDER” is simply a category in linguistics. “Father” has a masculine gender simply because the word “Father” is masculine in English (as the word denotes the biological attribute - fatherhood) - not because the Father/GOD has any biological attributes of maleness. It related to the common usage of the word - not the theological usage of the word. The best usage with masculine gender is to take the masculine pronoun - HE. However, under some circumstances the neuter pronoun may be appropriate. But a word with masculine gender and no particular sexual attributes certainly shouldn’t take the feminine - there is no basis for it. With foreign languages it may all depend. “Book” in French has masculine gender - the book has no biological attributes of maleness - it has masculine gender in French and in English the related pronoun could be “he” or “it” - but most certainly not “she”. Likewise “sophia” in Greek has feminine gender but no sex, so the related pronoun in Greek would be feminine but could be translated in English as either “she” or “it” but not “he”.

An interesting issue might arise with an oddity such as boats often having feminine gender in English, but in French the word for boat is masculine - then how would you translate the related pronoun? I suggest either “it” or “she” - the gender attributable in English. In any case there is no maleness - only an issue of masculine v. feminine.

 

[johnnykins]

Women are created female in the image and likeness of God - I read that in Genesis 1:27. Moses wrote that, and I certainly don’t think we can accuse Moses of being a feminist.

If women can be created in the image and likeness of God, then God must also have a feminine image, in addition to His masculine image. The Scriptures acknowledge this quite freely. So does the Church.

I don’t see a need to fear the feminine side of God, or think that somehow the feminists are taking over, when people acknowledge and use this ancient feminine imagery of God.

You are confusing “female” - a sexual attribute with “feminine” - a gender specific term on one account, and a reference to attributes of females on another. The issue is not that both men and women are made in the image and likeness of God - they are. The issue is not that God must have attributes that are reflected in both men and women, including in some respect the sexual differences between them - He does. The issue is the absurdity of contorting English in a confused understanding of gender (again - it’s only a linguistic issue) as it relates to sexuality. It’s a first cousin issue to those who refer to “herstory” instead if “history” - it’s inanity, for political purposes.

Also, there is the issue of a priest changing Church authorized translations illicitly.

 

[jmcrae]

You are confusing “female” - a sexual attribute with “feminine” - a gender specific term on one account, and a reference to attributes of females on another.

God created women in His image, feminine, I think?

Also, there is the issue of a priest changing Church authorized translations illicitly.

I was assuming that this took place during the homily; not during the readings.

 

[EasterJoy]

In Greek, “agio pnevmati” is gramatically neuter.

In English, using the grammatically feminine for a gender-neutral object of personality has essentially vanished, wouldn’t you say? In the course of making the easily offended happy, nobody calls an island or a ship a “she” any more. The earth is referred to that way, but more and more this is in way of worship of the planet’s female aspect.

I would go so far to say that in current American English, the feminine case is almost always meant as emphatically female. The masculine is meant that way by many. This is really too bad. English is the loser for it.

The Church, in it’s official teachings, share your disagreement.

Referring to the Third Person of the Trinity is a heresy. It was declared such some time in the 10th or 12th century. I will do some research to get the date, the names and the particulars.

Christ is the only member of the Triune God with an actual gender. However, all the persons of the Trinity are referred to using male pronouns. To do otherwise is not correct and diminishes God’s transcendence above all creation.

One of the great things about studying foreign languages is getting the concept that gender in language is not equivalent with physical, psychological, emotional, or any other kind of gender in that person, place, or thing that is being spoken of.

God is generally referred to in the masculine because the neuter evokes the idea of a thing and the feminine evokes the idea of the unequivocal female. It wasn’t that long ago that you could read normal everyday English and see the word “he” referring either to the unequivocal male OR to a person whose gender was not specified. Will those days return in my lifetime? I heartily doubt it.

IMHO, it took some people with way too much time on their hands to conclude that this usage made women invisible. Now we have the tedious usage where one feels compelled to put in “he or she”, where once “he” would have sufficed, in order to not anger someone out there who has a bad temper and a habit of making trouble.

Because of that, we have these fights over whether God is masculine or feminine in which the real quarrel is over whether God is male or female! Of course God is neither, but this is precisely why the use of the unequivocal feminine pronoun won’t work.

 

[beckycmarie]

The Holy spirit is neither male nor female. So you can call it ‘it’ .

The Holy Spirit is just as important as God and Jesus. Whether we call it male or female and making a debate is splitting hairs!!!
:

It is correct that the Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, since only humans can be male or female. God and Angels are pure spirit and therefore do not have genders.

The Holy Spirit is, however, a masculine spirit, so it is more appropriate to refer to the Holy Spirit as “Him” than as an “it” or a “she.”

 

[rpp]

In English, using the grammatically feminine for a gender-neutral object of personality has essentially vanished, wouldn’t you say? In the course of making the easily offended happy, nobody calls an island or a ship a “she” any more. The earth is referred to that way, but more and more this is in way of worship of the planet’s female aspect.

I would go so far to say that in current American English, the feminine case is almost always meant as emphatically female. The masculine is meant that way by many. This is really too bad. English is the loser for it.

One of the great things about studying foreign languages is getting the concept that gender in language is not equivalent with physical, psychological, emotional, or any other kind of gender in that person, place, or thing that is being spoken of.

God is generally referred to in the masculine because the neuter evokes the idea of a thing and the feminine evokes the idea of the unequivocal female. It wasn’t that long ago that you could read normal everyday English and see the word “he” referring either to the unequivocal male OR to a person whose gender was not specified. Will those days return in my lifetime? I heartily doubt it.

IMHO, it took some people with way too much time on their hands to conclude that this usage made women invisible. Now we have the tedious usage where one feels compelled to put in “he or she”, where once “he” would have sufficed, in order to not anger someone out there who has a bad temper and a habit of making trouble.

Because of that, we have these fights over whether God is masculine or feminine in which the real quarrel is over whether God is male or female! Of course God is neither, but this is precisely why the use of the unequivocal feminine pronoun won’t work.

This is a very good explanation. Very even handed. Thank you.

 

[rpp]

It is correct that the Holy Spirit is neither male nor female, since only humans can be male or female. God and Angels are pure spirit and therefore do not have genders.

Hmm… My kitty is male.

 

[beckycmarie]

Hmm… My kitty is male.

And that’s what happens when you don’t proofread your stuff before you post.

What I was trying to say is that God and his angels are pure spirit and are not male and female. But they can be feminine or masculine spirits.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I’ve heard it argued here that to refer to the Holy Spirit as female is a heresy. Could one of you tell me what the heresy’s name, exactly, is?

I looked up “Modalism,” the only actually named heresy this was suggested as being, but this definitely isn’t Modalism. Modalism denies the Trinity. It says nothing about the masculinity or femininity of the Spirit. So I’d like to know this.

 

[THurifer2]

And that’s what happens when you don’t proofread your stuff before you post.

What I was trying to say is that God and his angels are pure spirit and are not male and female. But they can be feminine or masculine spirits.

This is troubling…for a minute I was thinking on saving money on my 6 month old lab…he is scheduled to be neutered next week.

Perhaps that is what we should be doing to our language on the Holy Spirit…neutering it that is.

 

[THurifer2]

I’ve heard it argued here that to refer to the Holy Spirit as female is a heresy. Could one of you tell me what the heresy’s name, exactly, is?

I looked up “Modalism,” the only actually named heresy this was suggested as being, but this definitely isn’t Modalism. Modalism denies the Trinity. It says nothing about the masculinity or femininity of the Spirit. So I’d like to know this.

The mode of female is a heresy. It is a mode applied to a particular. The HS is outside of gender.

SOme thing of the HS as a paritcular “mode” or Characteristic of the one GOD. JW call it the “force” (like the force in Star Wars)…that is modalism as well. The Mode of “force” instead of a distinct person…of the same Godhead.

 

[wjm]

Hey folks… my first post… woo hoo!

So, to redirect this discussion slightly… I have heard it said that much of what we do as Catholics is predicated on following the customs and norms of the groups in which we find ourselves (e.g., when in an American church, you should kneel from the Sanctus through the Doxology, while when in other Latin Rite churches, you should kneel from the Epiclesis through the Mysterium Fidei). Violating these norms (e.g., to kneel too early for the consecration in a European church), while not inherently sinful, may display a sense of pride and disobedience if you have knowledge of the norms. With that in mind, what is considered to be the norm or custom that we should follow when choosing a pronoun to describe the Holy Spirit? Should we choose “He” or “She” or “It”? Ignoring whether the use of an uncommon or abnormal pronoun is more or less accurate or inherently sinful, I would think that violating the norms of the Church in this regard may indicate a certain level of pride, disobedience or rebellion that we would want to avoid. So, if “He” is the norm (just guessing… please correct me if I’m wrong here), shouldn’t we all use the pronoun “He”?

 

[nsm]

Congratulations on your first post and thanks for responding!

This is exactly my question as well - even though things can be argued on theological grounds aren’t there certain norms that govern usage? While the “she” reference was made during the homily, I really needed some teaching on why it was being used. It just felt as if it were being inserted in just to make a statement.

Yet, at the same time I want to be sensitive to my parish priest. It must be extremely difficult to wade through people’s different sensibilities. One thing I remember hearing on Father Corapi was that he was pulled aside in an airport by a woman who was incensed about the abuse scandal and the woman said, “I’m mad at you priests.” He responded that he was mad too, but he asked the woman how much she had prayed for the priesthood.

I know that our priest prays the liturgy of the hours for all of us, and I feel like he was responding to the loud voices of several outspoken members of the flock in including the gendered language. I feel like the last thing he needs is for people to come up to him and say, I found such and such in the catechism. Yet, I think that no matter how many theological arguments are given gender inclusive language politics are divisive.

Has anyone had experience in dealing with this in their own parishes. What did you do? Thank you thank you for all of your wonderful responses!!!

 

[LittleDeb]

Has anyone had experience in dealing with this in their own parishes. What did you do? Thank you thank you for all of your wonderful responses!!!

My pastor was the subject of one of Karl Keating’s e-letters for his not so appropriate “inclusiveness.” Yeah. That was a fun one to get in my inbox!

But I agreed with Karl not my pastor. I had to just “let that one go.”

 

[drafdog]

If you are really interested, you should read Genesis 1:26-28. God is clearly both male and female since humanity is created specifically in God’s image as male and female. If we perceive God as Father and Jesus as Son, then the remaining member of the Trinity embodies the feminine aspect of God, if only by default if not as expressed in the wisdom literature.

Matthew

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, God is clearly spirit. Spirit can be masculine or feminine, but not ‘male’ or ‘female’.

There is a difference.