The Homeless vs. Gay Marriage

[andyandely1997]

But they are completely with the church in the main purpose of their organization: to help ‘the least of these.’ It is utterly foolish to turn your back on a group who care for the needy because they signed their name to some petition. Who suffers for this rigid adherence to some secondary issue?

If the shelter would have kept their focus soley on the homeless, there wouldn’t be any problem. But this homeless shelter chose to throw its support behind gay marriage. And with choices come consequences, although, more & more people in our country make excuses or blame someone else(Catholic Church in this situation) for their woes.

 

[andyandely1997]

The Episcopalians are right. You shouldn’t force someone to listen to your religious beliefs.

No one is forcing anyone to come to the homeless shelter. If a church runs a private homeless shelter, it is their prerogative to preach a sermon on the gospel. If you do not want to listen to it, then do not go to this peticular homeless shelter. Many homeless do not go to shelters because of the rules regarding curfews, alcohol & drugs. But these rules are necessary for a long term recovery. And the gospel is needed for the salvation of our souls.

 

[RHC]

I think so! What if a Muslim group was helping the poor? Would you not want the church to help them out because they don’t believe Jesus is God. That is silly! Did Jesus chastise Roman soldiers because they had different beliefs than him? Did he not help Gentiles because they did not have different beliefs than them? Did the good Samaritan tell the person that he helped that he was wrong in his way? The church could easily say “We don’t agree with your position on gay marriage, but you are working for the greater good, so we can help anyway.”

Just because a group does not hold EVERY belief in common with the Catholic Church does not mean the church should stop funding them…that is just silly.

So, from this logic, the Church should support Planned Parenthood because occasionally they’re doing good…never mind the babies they kill in their abortion clinics or the promiscuous lifestyles they encourage.

Let me turn this around, if I may. Suppose a conservative group was “working for the greater good” - running a soup kitchen or whatever (I have a specific one in mind, but I won’t name names…no, it’s not Catholic). They’re against gay marriage, against abortion, against female pastors, and against homosexuality. Would you willingly support them? Give them your money? After all, they’re working for “the greater good”…

I suspect you would do like most of us and give your money and time to those groups that are more in line with your beliefs. The Church is no different. Furthermore, She has an obligation to encourage people to “sin no more,” as Christ would say.

Your argument of “Jesus taught us to look after the poor and those in prison; therefore, the Church should support this group that has come out in support of gay marriage” falls flat. The Church is not refusing to help the homeless; She is refusing to condone sin. This is clearly in line with Jesus’ teachings and the teachings of ALL of Scripture. She can easily serve the poor and homeless elsewhere in a shelter that is willing to comply with Church orthodoxy.

 

[RHC]

The teachings of our Lord should certainly direct our own moral compass and act as a guide in civil law. But it should not dictate civil law. If this were the case, we would be no better as a country than Iran.

Gay marriage should be federally mandated in the civil world in order to extend those legal and social benefits that opposite sex married couples enjoy to gay couples. This would have absolutely no impact on the lives of Christians or Catholic married couples, children, etc.

“Guide” civil law but not “dictate” civil law? Exactly what does that mean?

The Iran argument is a red herring. Iran follows Sharia, which is religious law. I am not suggesting that we all follow Levitical law. But I am suggesting that man’s law is derived from nature’s law and nature’s God…actually, I am quoting from the Declaration of Independence. “…to which the laws of nature and of nature’s God entitle them…” The Founding Fathers understood that man’s law is derived from God’s, not the other way around.

As for the gay marriage being civilly mandated argument - it is not given to man or the Church or the government to redefine marriage, which is a sacrament. Marriage was instituted by God’s law (natural law) and is and has always been between a man and a woman. It is not given to us to redefine it for our own whims because we didn’t create it in the first place. Marriage follows natural law, which is God’s law. If gay people want to have domestic partnerships, that is a civil matter that can be changed according to the will of the government. Oh wait, they already have domestic partnerships…that’s apparently not enough. They want marriage - holy matrimony. But there’s a problem. Marriage, as a sacrament, is ordained by God, created by God, instituted by God, and blessed by God. We as humans are not able to redefine it because we are NOT God.

If a gay person wants his/her domestic partner to be on an insurance policy, then that is a matter for the insurance company to settle with them. If they are worried about inheritance (disposition of property after a partner’s death), then that is a matter for a lawyer who is adept with wills and probate matters. If it is a concern over guardianship of children, again, a lawyer is a good person to consult.

The point is that most of the legal and social benefits are already available to domestic partners, and those that are not could be. The only thing they will lack is the blessing of holy matrimony, which the Church cannot give because She is not the One who created it in the first place.

 

[Lycorth]

If the Church does not perform it’s social justice mission within the confines of the morality of the Church, why bother?

Is it bad that a Catholic school refused to enroll a kindergartner because they knew that was a "guarantee’ to take the child as a student through the 8th grade, and at some point the child would be taught that her ‘parents’ were in an immoral relationship against Church teaching?

Is is bad that Catholic Charities in DC changes it’s benefits to have them be in compliance of the secular law as well as Church teaching?

Is it bad that the Church is trying to remain true to Catholic teaching, even though some ordained members are causing scandal?

Is it right that gay people are demanding that all social institutions change to accommodate them? Is it right that gay people are doing everything they can to force acceptance of their minority lifestyle?

Bravo!

The Catholic Church has a moral mission to the world. It is not merely here to try and be the world’s Santa Claus. Helping the poor is a virtue but Christ told us that the poor will always be amongst us - and He did not come to establish an international welfare network but to die for the salvation of souls.

 

[Bishop93]

Why is gay marriage more important than helping the homeless, especially in this day and age, where so many people are hurting financially? It’s not as though the Church herself is suddenly on the gay marriage bandwagon. If this organization does good work helping those who are most vulnerable, why can’t the Church continue to fund a successful program, even if those who run the program take a position contrary to the Church’s on one issue?

If this group suddenly came out pro-death penalty, I suspect that their funding would not be cut off. It’s always about gays. So pathetic. Reading some of the comments about homosexuality in this thread is just…sad.

Perhaps the Diocese of Portland, and the CCHD, will take that money and give it to a different organization to help the same population in Maine. I certainly hope so.

This was exactly my point^^^…People are always so worried about gays and the people who support gays that they let that overcome simple human compassion.

If homosexuality is a sin then–Sin is sin…Why do we treat one sin differently than another sin?

Jesus taught compassion and charity to sinners and believers alike.

He didn’t say to only treat the straight people with compassion and charity he said ALL people even sinners.

Seems like a lot of people have forgotten this.

 

[Lycorth]

What people are forgetting is that homosexuality is a sin and gay “marriage” is sacrilege.

Why shouldn’t people drop the obsession with gay marriage? Why should the Church be the one to bend over backwards (no pun intended) just to accommodate a few sodomites?

Being poor and homeless doesn’t condemn one to Hell. Engaging in homosexual behavior does.

 

[Michaeljc4]

The Catholic Church has a moral mission to the world. It is not merely here to try and be the world’s Santa Claus. Helping the poor is a virtue but Christ told us that the poor will always be amongst us - and He did not come to establish an international welfare network but to die for the salvation of souls.

You are very, very confused, my friend. “The world’s Santa Claus”? An “international welfare network”? Have you read the Gospels? You should. I think you’d find a lot to reflect on.

 

[hellopeople]

This was exactly my point^^^…People are always so worried about gays and the people who support gays that they let that overcome simple human compassion.

If homosexuality is a sin then–Sin is sin…Why do we treat one sin differently than another sin?

Jesus taught compassion and charity to sinners and believers alike.

He didn’t say to only treat the straight people with compassion and charity he said ALL people even sinners.

Seems like a lot of people have forgotten this.

You are forgetting that a lot of the people on these forums, and apparently other some people in the hierarchy of the church, like to think that they are better than everyone else.

 

[Lycorth]

You are very, very confused, my friend. “The world’s Santa Claus”? An “international welfare network”? Have you read the Gospels? You should. I think you’d find a lot to reflect on.

I have. I’d suggest you do the same. Study the Tradition of the Church while you’re at it.

The Church has a moral obligation to oppose sin. Homosexuality is a sin. The Church has every right to oppose that.

 

[Michaeljc4]

You may want to give it another shot. Apparently you missed some of it.

Here are some good starting points:

Deut. 26:5-9. The Egyptians treated us harshly and afflicted us, and imposed hard labor on us. Then we cried to the LORD, the God of our fathers, and the LORD heard our voice and saw our affliction and our toil and our oppression; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror and with signs and wonders; and He has brought us to… this land flowing with milk and honey.

Luke 4:16-21. And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read… “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He appointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, to proclaim the favorable year of the LORD… Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Ps. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor.

Is. 25:4. For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress.

Ps. 10:14. The unfortunate commits himself to You; You have been the helper of the orphan… O LORD, You have heard the desire of the humble; You will strengthen their heart, You will incline Your ear to vindicate the orphan and the oppressed.

Is 41:17. The afflicted and needy are seeking water, but there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them Myself, as the God of Israel I will not forsake them.

Luke 6:20-21. Blessed are you who are poor, for yours in the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

James 2:5. Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. “Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys.”

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, “Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise.”

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

 

[Michaeljc4]

(continued):

Prov. 22:9 He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.

Jer. 22:16 “Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?” declares the LORD.

Deut. 15:10. You shall give generously to [your poor brother], and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Jer. 7:5-7. “For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.”

Is. 58:10. “And if you give yourself to the hungry, and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness, and your gloom will become like midday. And the LORD will continually guide you, and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and give strength to your bones; and you will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.”

Luke 14:12-14. “When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Luke 12:44. “Sell your possessions and give alms; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, “All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Ezek. 16:49ff. “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.”

Is. 10:1-3. “Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights… Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?”

 

[Michaeljc4]

(continued)

Luke 1:52ff. [Mary’s Magnificat.] “He has brought down rulers from their thrones, and has exalted those who were hungry. He has filled the hungry with good things; and sent away the rich empty-handed.”

Ezek. 22:29,31. “The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice… Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads,” declares the Lord GOD.

Jer. 5:28f. “[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?” declares the LORD. “On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?”

James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. …Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

Luke 6:24. “But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.”

Luke 16:19-25. “Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.’
But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony…’”

Prov. 29:7. The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern.
1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world’s goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Luke 6:33ff. “And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same.”

2 Cor 9:7. Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

Mt. 6:2-4. “When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.”

Mt. 6:24. “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money.”

1 Tim. 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang.

Gal. 2:9ff. Recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John… gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. They only asked us to remember the poor-- the very thing I also was eager to do.

Lev. 19:15. “You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor nor defer to the great, but you are to judge your neighbor fairly.”

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need.

Acts 4:32-35. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need.

 

[Michaeljc4]

(continued)

Eph. 4:28. Let him who steals steal no longer; but rather let him labor, performing with his own hands what is good, in order that he may have something to share with him who has need.

2 Cor. 8:9. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Prov. 14:31. He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, but he who is gracious to the needy honors Him.

Mt. 25:31-46. “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
Then they themselves will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Likewise, you may want to read up on the preferential option for the poor, one of the wonderful traditions of the Church.

 

[Bishop93]

You are forgetting that a lot of the people on these forums, and apparently other some people in the hierarchy of the church, like to think that they are better than everyone else.

Yeah,but there are people like that in almost all religions.

People get set in their ways and it’s hard overcome tradition even if it’s flawed.

Then you’ve got your plain ole’…Hardheads.

 

[Elizabeth502]

So he adhered to the code intensely and intensively, but he changed the code…that doesn’t really make sense. He didn’t follow the code as it was understood at the time, so did he really follow the law? I don’t think he did. He had the authority to change it.

He did not come close to changing it in the way you fantasize, rationalize, and hope for. He saw morality as something that had to be comprehensive rather than selective. Selective is how people who challenge the moral code prefer to interpret Jesus’ words, but that’s simply ahistorical.

To be honest, for such a self proclaimed “biblical scholar” (and might I add extremely arrogant with your assertion of the title) you seem to be missing the message completely…weren’t the pharisees scholars of scripture as well?

No, actually. The Pharisees misunderstood scripture. Jesus corrected them. It’s His correct interpretation that I follow, but thanks for the insults anyway.

A biblical scholar is one who has the background and formal training, and therefore knows what he/she is talking about. A scholar is one with many years of study behind him or her and much reading from many corners, including Protestant (which I have) and Jewish (which I have). It means you understand the literature in the context of the culture and the languages in which it was written, not that you interpret it sentimentally or with 21st century perspectives.

He was considered radical as in root, not as in revolutionary.

 

[Jermosh]

“Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.” (John 8:11)

Yes, Christ sat with sinners, but He did not enable them in their sin. Christ came to free us from our sin. “And after that John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying: The time is accomplished, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:14-15)

Christ calls all to repentance. If an organization is unrepentant along with going against the gospel, are we still required to support them? “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” (Matthew 10 14:15)

Giving someone charity is not enabling them to sin, He was crystal clear with this fact in the Sheep and Goats message. Using your logic and others, we should bring back prison sentancing for being Gay again.

 

[Bishop93]

Giving someone charity is not enabling them to sin, He was crystal clear with this fact in the Sheep and Goats message. Using your logic and others, we should bring back prison sentancing for being Gay again.

Maybe we should start stoning people to death again for working on Sabbath?

We need to stone those Atheist too for denying Christ,huh?

Get real…Golly lol

 

[PaulinVA]

Once again, we are talking how to help the homeless, not whether to help the homeless.

We are talking about the best way to use the money that Catholics have donated. Perhaps there is a government contract involved. Any way you look it, Catholics are all for helping the homeless. We just are picky about the people we work with. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Jermosh]

Once again, we are talking how to help the homeless, not whether to help the homeless.

We are talking about the best way to use the money that Catholics have donated. Perhaps there is a government contract involved. Any way you look it, Catholics are all for helping the homeless. We just are picky about the people we work with. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is not what Scripture says, not only with the Sheep and Goats message. But St Paul tells us directly that we should lavish our enemy with love.

No where in the Gospels does it put limits on our charity, so why are we.