The immaculate misconception

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I think it’s safe to say that contraception involves an act of the will. That makes it a moral decision.
That is not enough. Deciding whether to eat a healthy cereal or a greasy hamburger for breakfast is also an act of will. That does not make it a “moral decison”.
Paragraph 17 is titled “Consequences of Artificial Methods” and talks about three negative consequences to society at large for widespread acceptance of contraceptive sex:
  1. Marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. The history of the past 40 years is on the Church’s side for this one. Infidelity is rampant today. No fault divorce has paved the way for one in every two marriages ending in divorce.
Yes, I am aware of the church’s opinion. There is nothing wrong with divorce - if there are no children. if there are, it leads to a less than ideal state of affairs, but it is not a catastrophy. And the church is wrong. There was as much infidelity in the “golden victorian era”, it was just hidden. There might have been no divorce, but divorce is not bad per se.
  1. Objectification of women. The history of the past 40 years is on the Church’s side for this one as well, and it’s not just men objectifying women. Women objectify men today as well, in large numbers. This was also hard to imagine for most people 40 years ago.
What is this “objectification”? People still love each other. Maybe the love does not last forever, but that is not a problem. To stay in a loveless relationship is much worse than a friendly divorce.
  1. Government imposing contraception. Teaching sex education with the attitude “Kids are uncontrollable beasts, so let’s make sure they use condoms” is one obvious example of this. Distribution of free condoms to students at taxpayer expense, whether or not parents/guardians agree to it, certainly sounds like government imposition of contraception to me.
Those “children” - adolescents really - are are allowed to drive cars - and cars are lethal objects. If they can be trusted to drive, or can join the army where they will be trusted to handle weapons, they can be given condoms, too.

All the church brings up is the usual “O tempora, o mores” type of lamentation of the old generation. All across the ages the old folks were decrying the lowering of “morals”. And yet, we live in the best of times. The good old times are today.
 
No, I genuinely believe that the Old School (by Western standards) tendency to see sexuality as wicked but violence as good (or at least excuseable and useful) is very harmful.
Who runs this Old School that you refer to?

Would you please cite an official Church document that describes sexuality as wicked? I don’t believe you can do so.
 
Yes, but as the Catholic Church is usually quick to remind everyone, we live in a Fallen world where sin touches virtually everything we do. Even perfect behavior is not enough, our thoughts and emotions must be pure too (according to the Church).
Why is this a bad thing?
 
No, I genuinely believe that the Old School (by Western standards) tendency to see sexuality as wicked but violence as good (or at least excuseable and useful) is very harmful.
If the Tacitus and Petronius are believed, the Old School found them both good.

If this morning’s paper is believed, the New School agrees with the Old School.
 
That is not enough. Deciding whether to eat a healthy cereal or a greasy hamburger for breakfast is also an act of will. That does not make it a “moral decison”.
According to Catholic teaching, it does make it a moral decision. If there’s nothing wrong with eating a greasy hamburger (there isn’t) and there’s nothing wrong with eating a healthy cereal (there isn’t), then both objects are good. If there’s nothing wrong with deciding to eat a food for a particular meal which is good (there isn’t), then the intent is also good. That means the act is good whichever choice is made.

Of course that only applies to a single isolated act. Change the object or intent and the answer can change. Someone eating a greasy hamburger for every meal instead of just one is a different object. That object is not eating a balanced diet, which means the person in question is missing out on some of the nutrients needed to be healthy, which is a disordered way of eating. Or, someone who chooses to eat greasy food with the active intent to disregard nutrition has a disordered intent.

The difference should be quite clear.
Yes, I am aware of the church’s opinion. There is nothing wrong with divorce - if there are no children. if there are, it leads to a less than ideal state of affairs, but it is not a catastrophy. And the church is wrong. There was as much infidelity in the “golden victorian era”, it was just hidden. There might have been no divorce, but divorce is not bad per se.
Ah, the old canard that there was as much infidelity in the past as there is today but it was hidden in the past. What a convenient way of ducking out on giving any sort of evidence to back up such a claim.
What is this “objectification”? People still love each other. Maybe the love does not last forever, but that is not a problem. To stay in a loveless relationship is much worse than a friendly divorce.
Objectification is treating someone like an object instead of a person. StarFireKK gave a good explanation of it in one of his posts last night when talking about lust. “You might care enough to make sure it is an enjoyable experience for your partner, but not because you really care if it is but because you want to avoid any complaints/drama/etc from them if it is not. Or…you want to make sure the next time you are “in the mood” they’ll have sex with you.”
Those “children” - adolescents really - are are allowed to drive cars - and cars are lethal objects. If they can be trusted to drive, or can join the army where they will be trusted to handle weapons, they can be given condoms, too.
Another old canard, the claim that if someone can be trusted to drive (but has higher insurance rates because they cause far more accidents than adults), join the army where they handle weapons (under strictly regimented conditions far beyond what a civilian experiences), then they can be trusted to use condoms. If they can be trusted to use condoms, then why is our teen pregnancy rate the highest in the world?
All the church brings up is the usual “O tempora, o mores” type of lamentation of the old generation. All across the ages the old folks were decrying the lowering of “morals”. And yet, we live in the best of times. The good old times are today.
It takes a complete denial of reality to claim that the morals of today are not poor. Since you wish to turn a blind eye to the condition of the world around you and claim that morals today are not worse than they were 40 years ago, I’m going to follow my own advice and shake the dust from my sandals.
 
Sorry, I am not interested in faith based arguments. What actual, specific secular or temporal harm does contraception bring along? That is the question.
You all have been busy on this topic!

As an habitue of a Catholic site, I presume you appreciate the difficulty Catholics have drawing the faith/secular line that you are asking. We just don’t draw it the same way.

For example, because Catholics believe in a literal Kingdom of God, which is perfect, we tend to evaluate things in light of that ideal. We ask “If we do such and such here, how closely can we match the world to the Kingdom?”

A practical example would be the old Truce of God. No one ever thought wars would stop, just that the world might be more peaceful, closer to the ideal.

The ideal from the Catholic perspective is that every person would have one mate. Leave monks and nuns out of the equation for the moment. Each person would be devoted to the mate, and not compete with his or her neighbor for their mate. The purpose of pairing would be to support each other and help care for one’s neighbors as one’s self, as well as begetting children. No lust, no greed, no coveting, no theft. That’s the ideal.

With the ideal in mind (and this is a marked difference between Catholic and modern democratic thought, which as Afghanistan and the EU illustrate, operates in the absence of ideals), Catholics ask what is likely to advance its achievement.

Sexual discipline is required, because without it, people will become accustomed to demanding sexual gratification on their own terms. Sexual discipline is needed for the same reason that fiscal discipline is needed. The person must become conditioned to putting his or her needs on the exact same plane as one’s neighbor, for the good of the general peace. Without practice and application, people cannot achieve the ideal, any more than soldiers can achieve collective bravery in the absence of training.

Based on what you have written, this is the opposite end from which you begin your analysis. You start with a hypothetical “If I am in a dark room, totally alone, and I begin to think about Anita Ekberg, who is harmed?” I reply: you are retarding your development as a chaste person, capable of maintaining the required self control. You see no potential victims. I see a soldier who fails to muster for parade, because he does not foresee the battle.

I grant you that the Catholic ideal may preclude the exuberance one finds in certain “blue films” (if one believes in that kind of thing). However, the ideal also precludes the child prostitution industry and the sad Knox case from Italy, to be more prosaic and topical.

That is probably the clearest I can make the Catholic “secular” argument. Catholics, like communists, have long realized that the rich and powerful find the ideal unattractive. Anyone who remembers Jack and the Beanstalk knows that giants don’t think much of shorter folks.
 
You make laugh Warrenton.
I try!
This is one of the most self-centered things I have read in a while. Without religion and people like you (Catholics) there would be no rules?
Anarchy would reign forever:rolleyes:
What came ye out into the desert to see, my friend?

No, there would be more rules, and even more penalties. Fewer people would make them, and more proles would suffer them. (I won’t use the word “slaves” since it seems to offend the free).
 
Well, I also believe that there is objective (but not absolute) morality. I even described what it is.
I dont believe in absolute morality either. I assume by objective you mean that an action is right or wrong in the same circumstances at different times for everyone. Absolute morality would normally mean as an example it is never OK to kill a human. I believe it is in self defense.

Of course if you believe in objective morality you’re going to have to explain how this morality came to be and how you can know it. Christians have a pretty solid explanation in God. Materialists of course cant explain it nor can they truly believe in objective morality since it would be immaterial.
Except the prisoner’s dilemma is not “all”. Life is not a prisoner’s dilemma. The optimum strategy is a good balance of cooperation and competition. And you might achieve some temporary “peak” of happiness, but other people are not idiots and they will turn against you.
I do not think the prisoners dilemna is a good strategy but only because I believe in God and eternal judgment. If I believed in neither then logic would dictate that I be as sneaky as possible so long as that sneakiness increases my hapiness. I would have no reason to follow the rules other than where that increased my hapiness. I’d have tremendous incentive to ignore the rules surreptiously where it increased my hapiness. Many people live this later way.
Sure. But without a well-developed brain (and mind) one cannot consent at all.
I would say without a mind no one can consent. If the brain is all we have then there is no consent at all. But tying it back to the original issue consent is a moral issue. You declare there is no sexual morality, but I’d like you to conclusively prove to me there is a real, transcendental obligation to care about people’s wills being violated in a material world, if that is what you believe in.
 
THEY CAN!

Having sex because they feel like it isn’t the same as having sex ONLY for the purpose of pleasure.

A married couple has sex as an expression of their love and a celebration of their marriage vows. Part of that love and celebration is being opened to children. In a good marriage those feelings and ideas are always there. Practically speaking, one or both is “in the mood,” flirts and lets nature takes its course. It is fun, playful and loving.

Lustful sex is like (I hate this term but it is accurate) mutual masturbation. It is all about making sure you get what you are looking for. It is all about your pleasure, your stress relief, your ego. You might care enough to make sure it is an enjoyable experience for your partner, but not because you really care if it is but because you want to avoid any complaints/drama/etc from them if it is not. Or…you want to make sure the next time you are “in the mood” they’ll have sex with you.

Nothing is wrong with having a sex drive, nothing is wrong with finding your spouse attractive, nothing is wrong with not intending to conceive when you have sex (provided you aren’t using contraceptives,) and nothing is wrong with enjoying it.
The traditional attitude of the Catholic Church (and devout Catholics for that matter) argues against your interpretation.

The Church has usually argued against any depiction, promotion, or even discussion of sex, nudity, and sexuality in the public sphere. Treating the whole subject as something that needs to be hidden, not openly discussed, and certainly not celebrated.
 
  1. Objectification of women. The history of the past 40 years is on the Church’s side for this one as well, and it’s not just men objectifying women. Women objectify men today as well, in large numbers. This was also hard to imagine for most people 40 years ago.
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Women have always been objectified as sex objects and breeders. It just seems much worse in the modern era because we have gotten so openly commercial about the whole thing (e.g. sex sells).

Besides the opposite of our post-Sexual Revolution world is often worse.

Women are even more objectified as sex objects and breeders in conservative Islam (in fact women are often regarded as nothing but that in these settings). But under Sharia Law, a woman’s body and sexuality belongs firmly to a her father and/or husband, not her.
 
Your allegations need justification…

**With equal facility I could state that your lack of religion demands **total dedication to **your own point of view **and the rules and principles you command and endorse. Your lack of religion is all about extremes. No need for self-restraint at all! 😉
No you couldn’t.

There have been countless Popes, theologians, and parish priests over the centuries who have urged people to greater piety, sacrifice, effort, etc. This appears to be the norm, regardless of how pious or poor the people the Church is preaching to actually are.
 
**Who runs this Old School that you refer to?
**Would you please cite an official Church document that describes sexuality as wicked? I don’t believe you can do so.
I was referring to the old Victorianeque standards that dominated in the West until the Sexual Revolution. This ideal still holds a lot of sway in America, which is why there was such an uproar over Janet Jackson flashing a breast during the Superbowl a few years ago, but no similar uproar over the increasingly graphic depictions of violence on TV and in movies.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Yes, but as the Catholic Church is usually quick to remind everyone, we live in a Fallen world where sin touches virtually everything we do. Even perfect behavior is not enough, our thoughts and emotions must be pure too (according to the Church).

Why is this a bad thing?
Because it means that escaping sin is all but impossible, and if you’re attempting to get free of sin you’re setting yourself up to fail.
 
If the Tacitus and Petronius are believed, the Old School found them both good.

If this morning’s paper is believed, the New School agrees with the Old School.
I was not talking about the Roman Empire or the ancient Greeks.
 
According to Catholic teaching, it does make it a moral decision. If there’s nothing wrong with eating a greasy hamburger (there isn’t) and there’s nothing wrong with eating a healthy cereal (there isn’t), then both objects are good. If there’s nothing wrong with deciding to eat a food for a particular meal which is good (there isn’t), then the intent is also good. That means the act is good whichever choice is made.

Of course that only applies to a single isolated act. Change the object or intent and the answer can change. Someone eating a greasy hamburger for every meal instead of just one is a different object. That object is not eating a balanced diet, which means the person in question is missing out on some of the nutrients needed to be healthy, which is a disordered way of eating. Or, someone who chooses to eat greasy food with the active intent to disregard nutrition has a disordered intent.

The difference should be quite clear.

Ah, the old canard that there was as much infidelity in the past as there is today but it was hidden in the past. What a convenient way of ducking out on giving any sort of evidence to back up such a claim.

Objectification is treating someone like an object instead of a person. StarFireKK gave a good explanation of it in one of his posts last night when talking about lust. “You might care enough to make sure it is an enjoyable experience for your partner, but not because you really care if it is but because you want to avoid any complaints/drama/etc from them if it is not. Or…you want to make sure the next time you are “in the mood” they’ll have sex with you.”

Another old canard, the claim that if someone can be trusted to drive (but has higher insurance rates because they cause far more accidents than adults), join the army where they handle weapons (under strictly regimented conditions far beyond what a civilian experiences), then they can be trusted to use condoms. If they can be trusted to use condoms, then why is our teen pregnancy rate the highest in the world?

It takes a complete denial of reality to claim that the morals of today are not poor. Since you wish to turn a blind eye to the condition of the world around you and claim that morals today are not worse than they were 40 years ago, I’m going to follow my own advice and shake the dust from my sandals.
In many ways Westerners are much more moral than they were in the 1950s (who were far more moral than people in the 1850s).

For one thing, we made racism a dirty word.
Today no one wants to be called a racist (sometimes even if they are) but in the past people wore that label with pride.
 
Not really. Children under a certain age - and that age DOES vary - are simply not developed enough to give a meaningful consent. And that is a biological fact, without any “philosophical” mumbo-jumbo.
How is the ability to give a meaningful consent measured? What brain anatomy/physiology is necessary? Why does the age vary? :confused:
 
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