The immaculate misconception

[healonzo]

Dear Spock,

First off, thank you for engaging in a discussion about sexuality. I think it is a good thing.

I think it is best to try to understand Catholic of sexuality from a point of view of Theology of the Body. Do you know of it and more importantly it’s premise?

Also, I think it is important to understand the nature of the human person. Would you agree that a person has sexual desires and those sexual desires are not always healthy?

Thanks, Pax et Bonum

 

[Spock]

Well, unhealthy citizens tend to cost the government money and/or cost society progress. First, you have the cost of the work they would have done if they had not be unhealthy. Second, you have the cost of any worked missed from a family caretaker. Third, you have the actual cost of the care given to them. If the person is on a government program there is actual money lost. But there is also the cost that had the doctors and their staff not wasted time with someone who was unhealthy because of something they could control (i.e. diet, smoking) they could have given care to someone that really needs it. (Cancer, etc) It is simple supply and demand. With more “sick” people the price of giving care goes up.

First of all the “goverment” has no money. The taxpayers have the money and some of them are forced to subsidize others.

It isn’t so simple to say “get rid of the government programs.”

All the unnecessary programs. The goverment has only one basic task, to maintain peace so the individual citizens can pursue their own interests. If someone wishes to drink himslef to death, or smoke himself to death - that is his own business. Other people should not be forced to subsidize such behavior. People keep on building houses on flood-plains, too. Every X years the houses will be swept away in a flood. The goverment takes away the money from those who do not build on the flooded area and “helps” out those who are irresponsible. And guess what, those people will never learn, they will rebuild on the flood plains again and again and again. Why should we sugsidize the stupidity?

You will still have the opportunity cost of the doctor’s spending their time caring for and educating people that could have avoided their situation. Also, where do you draw the line? If someone had an “ok” diet but a ton of stress and had a heart attack or stroke. Should they be refused care? They could have done more to defend against the risks, but they are only human and we all make mistakes. Where does compassion fit into the equation?

It is your job to be compassionate and mine. Not the goverment’s. Yours, because you believe that your God commands you to do it. Mine, because even without such command I am compassionate - due to my upbringing.

Also, government programs have a role in society- people can get some level of care and food so they don’t get so desperate they start robbing and killing people.

Nonsense. To feed the hungry is our job. The hungry people are in our neighborhood. The goverment has one job and only one. To create the necessary number of laws, which will ensure the peace and order within the society. Not feeding the hungry, not “protecting us from our own mistakes”.

But to say that “bad” choices don’t matter to society at large is inaccurate. People generally interfere because they see the larger problem these choices cause.

Get realistic. Of course, if I eat too much beans, I might give you discomfort if you are in the vicinity. But if that relief happens far away from you, it does not affect you in any way. And people generally interfere because they are busybodies, who like to stick their noses where it does not belong to. If I would be inclined to pray, this is the prayer I would utter: “Oh, please Lord, save me from the people who want to save me from myself”.

Of course, all this, while interesting, does not mesh with the topic at hand.

 

[Spock]

I think it is best to try to understand Catholic of sexuality from a point of view of Theology of the Body. Do you know of it and more importantly it’s premise?

Yes, and I disagree with a sizable portion of it.

Also, I think it is important to understand the nature of the human person. Would you agree that a person has sexual desires and those sexual desires are not always healthy?

Of course I agree. Where we probably disagree is which part is “healthy” and which part is not.

 

[LittleSoldier]

It is your job to be compassionate and mine. Not the goverment’s. Yours, because you believe that your God commands you to do it. Mine, because even without such command I am compassionate - due to my upbringing.

I’m not compassionate because my God commands me to be so. I am compassionate (or at least I try to be) because it is the right way to be. Do you honestly think that Christians only do what they are commanded to do? We’re not evil beings held in reign by a loving God! We love, we empathize, we are compassionate because those qualities are good in and of themselves - not because we are ordered to be so. Why would you think anything else? I’m really confused here.

 

[healonzo]

Yes, and I disagree with a sizable portion of it.

Of course I agree. Where we probably disagree is which part is “healthy” and which part is not.

I was hoping you knew TOB.

I don’t know if I should go down this path because we probably disagree about the main things. lol. I guess I’ll ask another question.

What takes primacy the most out of these dimensions: physical, spiritual, emotional, psychological? (with regards to your question)

Thanks. Pax et Bonum.

 

[Spock]

I’m not compassionate because my God commands me to be so. I am compassionate (or at least I try to be) because it is the right way to be. Do you honestly think that Christians only do what they are commanded to do? We’re not evil beings held in reign by a loving God! We love, we empathize, we are compassionate because those qualities are good in and of themselves - not because we are ordered to be so. Why would you think anything else? I’m really confused here.

The reason is simple. Many catholic posters said before, that IF they did not believe in God, and did not FEAR his retribution, they would engage is murders, tortures, all sorts of sexual escapades… they do not try to do all that, BECAUSE they fear God. They said that they are compassionate BECAUSE they are commanded to do it. So I would like to believe that you are compassionate because you think it is the “right thing to do” but I am am leery, seeing the other side of the coin. Mind you, those posters offered their stance free of coersion. I have every reason to believe that they do not behave as “monsters” because they fear God… so I would like to believe you… but it is not easy. And I have to add: there was no post denouncing those posters… their posts were left unchallenged, which is very frightening.

And there is an even more sinister side of this coin: "if you, the believers would honestly think that your God orders you to do torture, rape and commit mayhem, then you would do exactly that. You believe whatever God commmands you to do is moral, proper and just to do… so do not be surprised if I doubt your your claim here… it is your sincere belief that to be compassionate and helpful is what your God commands you to do… but if you would honestly and sincerely believe the contrary - you would do that too. That is the reason I value those “cafeteria catholics” so much… they do not follow mindlessley what the Vatican says, they think for themselves, and they are not willing to accept the orthodoxy. Remember the slogan from 1984: “orthodoxy is unconsciousness”!!!

 

[Spock]

I was hoping you knew TOB.

What is TOB???

I don’t know if I should go down this path because we probably disagree about the main things. lol. I guess I’ll ask another question.

What takes primacy the most out of these dimensions: physical, spiritual, emotional, psychological? (with regards to your question)

Again, I need clarification. The word “spiritual” is totally meaningless for me. Emotional and psychological are part of “physical”.

 

[LittleSoldier]

The reason is simple. Many catholic posters said before, that IF they did not believe in God, and did not FEAR his retribution, they would engage is murders, tortures, all sorts of sexual escapades… they do not try to do all that, BECAUSE they fear God. They said that they are compassionate BECAUSE they are commanded to do it. So I would like to believe that you are compassionate because you think it is the “right thing to do” but I am am leery, seeing the other side of the coin. Mind you, those posters offered their stance free of coersion. I have every reason to believe that they do not behave as “monsters” because they fear God… so I would like to believe you… but it is not easy. And I have to add: there was no post denouncing those posters… their posts were left unchallenged, which is very frightening.

And there is an even more sinister side of this coin: "if you, the believers would honestly think that your God orders you to do torture, rape and commit mayhem, then you would do exactly that. You believe whatever God commmands you to do is moral, proper and just to do… so do not be surprised if I doubt your your claim here… it is your sincere belief that to be compassionate and helpful is what your God commands you to do… but if you would honestly and sincerely believe the contrary - you would do that too. That is the reason I value those “cafeteria catholics” so much… they do not follow mindlessley what the Vatican says, they think for themselves, and they are not willing to accept the orthodoxy. Remember the slogan from 1984: “orthodoxy is unconsciousness”!!!

Wow - you really don’t understand, do you?

I have never read from any poster on this or any other forum that they would do all those horrible things except that they’re afraid that God will punish them. Murders? Torturing? C’mon. That is absolutely ridiculous. Did you report these posts? Did you respond to these posts? Anyone who posts that he/she wants to engage in these activities is either psychotic or is a troll but needs professional help in either case.

I’m not surprised that you value Cafeteria Catholics. They have one foot out the door of an organization that you appear to loathe. I know about Cafeteria Catholics because I used to be one. It’s what happens sometimes when Catholics become lazy and don’t want to learn *why * the Church teaches what she does or who think they can change Church dogma or doctrine to fit what they want it to be. But the Church encourages us to question our faith. I have always been taught to question Catholic teaching by the Church herself. The Catholic Church is unlike many churches who demand unquestioning, mindless obedience and acceptance from their members. I question a lot of Church teachings. I do it all the time here on CAF.

As for belief, I can’t be forced to believe anything. I don’t think anyone can.

If “God” commanded me to murder someone I would head for the nearest psychiatric hospital ASAP. If “God” commanded me to rape someone I would first of all wonder why He would be commanding a woman to rape someone (I know it’s possible and I know it is done but I don’t think it would be that easy) and then I would head for the nearest psychiatric hospital.

God will not command me to do any of the horrendous actions you have listed because He can’t. He is omnipotent but He cannot go against His very nature and His nature is loving.

And there is one thing you should know about me: I do not lie. When I say that I try to be compassionate and kind because it’s the right way to be I mean exactly that. Of course I suppose I could be lying when I say I don’t lie but it seems kind of sad that you refuse to believe that I want to be a kind person yet you accept the claims of people who say they want to murder and torture without seeming to question those claims.

 

[LittleSoldier]

(Thank the Lord - if there is one - that millions of catholics - the so-called cafeteria catholics - thumb their nose at Rome!)

I would like to remind you that when you became a member of CAF you agreed to follow the forum rules. One of these rules is that you treat the Catholic Church with respect. You’re straddling the line here and I think that perhaps you may have stepped over it.

I would like to ask you the same question that I asked from Cephas, is the proclaimed catholic view - namely: every act of everyone affects everyone else? - really what the church teaches? Officially or semi-officially? Or is that just your opinion? Is there some church document which substantiates this?

It is Church teaching. I am looking for the actual document. It is referenced in Peter Kreeft’s book Catholic Christianity, which does have a *Nihil obstat *and Imprimatur. I’m not very good at finding Church documents but I’m doing my best here.

 

[Spock]

I have never read from any poster on this or any other forum that they would do all those horrible things except that they’re afraid that God will punish them. Murders? Torturing? C’mon. That is absolutely ridiculous. Did you report these posts? Did you respond to these posts? Anyone who posts that he/she wants to engage in these activities is either psychotic or is a troll but needs professional help in either case.

Amazing, but it happened, and not just once. Of course I did not report them, why should I have done such a thing? And whether they are psychotic or not, it is not my place to decide. They did not seem to be.

God will not command me to do any of the horrendous actions you have listed because He can’t. He is omnipotent but He cannot go against His very nature and His nature is loving.

The point was “IF… he did order, what would you do”? After all he DID order Abraham to kill his own son and only in the last moment did he stay the process - if you believe the Bible. He ordered the the full-blown genocide a few times, and he personally slaughtered all the humans and all the animals - if you believe the Bible. So it is not unheard of. The hypothetical question is a valid one. So, suppose you did get the order, and you ran to the nearest hospital, and you did get a clean bill of health… what would you do then?

And there is one thing you should know about me: I do not lie. When I say that I try to be compassionate and kind because it’s the right way to be I mean exactly that. Of course I suppose I could be lying when I say I don’t lie but it seems kind of sad that you refuse to believe that I want to be a kind person yet you accept the claims of people who say they want to murder and torture without seeming to question those claims.

I did noy say that I don’t believe you, I only said that I had my reservations. I was just as astonished to see those posts as you are now. I asked for clarification and they affirmed that it was not a joke.

I would like to remind you that when you became a member of CAF you agreed to follow the forum rules. One of these rules is that you treat the Catholic Church with respect. You’re straddling the line here and I think that perhaps you may have stepped over it.

Respect does not mean agreement. Nowhere and never have I said that the church is “the whore of the devil” or anything similar to that. I did say that I find many things the church teaches irrational and illogical. Is that “disrespect”? I don’t think so.

It is Church teaching. I am looking for the actual document. It is referenced in Peter Kreeft’s book Catholic Christianity, which does have a *Nihil obstat *and Imprimatur. I’m not very good at finding Church documents but I’m doing my best here.

I appreciate your effort. I will not be surprised if you find something along those lines, I am simply curious. And - by the way - if you are successful then I will add this new find to the list what I find irrational and illogical.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Depicting nudity by itself is not a problem for the Church, many saints and hermits went nude or practically so. In Catholic days many of the peasants worked in the nude, certainly communal bathing was common. There were mass bathings in holy rivers, and one can occassionally find stereoscope photos of them from the turn of the last centuries. To contemporary eyes, they resembled huge wet tee shirt contests. Many old churches have paintings or sculpture of nudes, some depict saints or biblical characters, others are merely decorative.

But the use of the nude body to stimulate erotic arousal is a different matter.

Maybe you would have enjoyed being a Catholic before the 20th century. I certainly would have.

Don’t be so sure
Remember the horrible state of medicine for one thing.

As for the nudity aspect, I have often gotten impression that the Catholic Church is okay with nudity in art as long as the figures depicted are not attractive and/or likely to inspire lust.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

This question reminds me of a saying that I heard ascribed to Prime Minister Gladstone, something to the effect that “all actions are moral actions.”

The short answer is that I do not know. I seem to recall that scholastic philosophy allows for neutral actions. When I have some time, I will try to find the answers. I wish some of our Orthodox friends would post on this thread. They tend to have a strong grip on “classical” Christian philosophy.

I am sorry. You are correct in my general worldview, but that is not why I selected the metaphor. I was searching for an easily understood simile for how a seemingly neutral act - even an omission - could impact people other than the actor, and the lazy soldier came to mind as an image that might be familiar to you. I did not mean to offend.

Thank you for the kind words. Rather than prudish, though, I would prefer to say “authoritarian.” Perhaps that word would cover your objections to the nature of Catholic sexual morality equally well? “Prudish” connotes squeemishness. We’re strict, but we’re not squeemish. The Little Office of the Blessed Virgin contains remarkably frank references to sexuality and reproduction (I expect it’s one of the reasons it has gone out of fashion).

Like the communists, or maybe even more like the Spartans, Catholics think reproduction serves a corporate purpose as well as a personal one. Hence, the corporate body (for us, the Church) has the “secular right” to legislate, or regulate, sexual practices.

In searching for an apt “secular” analogy, I recognize that to the extent my countrymen decline to have children, so much more frequently will I share space with aliens, and so forth. But of course, this only addresses the “right” to make rules, and not whether the specific rules are in themselves good or bad. Your “individual rights” based critique on that issue remains valid, and persuasive to many, whether or not they are free thinkers.

I would disagree with that.
I think that traditionally (as a group) Catholics are very squeamish when it comes to sex.
But I admit that its just a personal opinion:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Now you are venturing into the territory of our fallen natures and our inclination towards sin. Catholics believe you cannot be perfect or sinless without the Grace of God. That is why when Saints were in danger of giving into sin they would pray for God to give them the strength to resist.

So what do Catholics do? We know that more than likely we are all going to have an impure thought (or uncharitable thought or fill in the blank with your choose sin thought.) That’s why we have the Act of Contrition and the Sacrament of Reconciliation (i.e. Confession.) We acknowledge we sinned, we apologize to God for having offended him, and we resolve to do better next time.

That doesn’t mean we will never fall into that sin again but that we will make an honest effort to battle it. Think of it as a math problem where the teacher doesn’t give you credit for the right answer but for showing your work. If you get the right answer but show none of the work you will get less “points” than a person that showed his work but got the wrong answer. That’s what Catholics call “struggling with sin.”

Most Catholics cheerfully admit they are not perfect and are a “work-in-progress.” It is just a different mentality. You see the strict standards and say “I can never do that, why bother?” Most Catholics say “Wow, that’s hard. I’ll give it my best shot and ask God to help me and we’ll see what happens.”

The thing that I find so adhorrent about Christianity is the principal that due to these imperfections (even if their just thought crimes) we all deserve to be tortured forever and ever.

Infinite punishment for limited crimes is the height of injustice.

Now I know that according to Christian theology we can escape our* just punishment *by being servile and worshipful towards God. But that doesn’t make the basic principal of Christianity any less horrible.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

What is TOB???

Again, I need clarification. The word “spiritual” is totally meaningless for me. Emotional and psychological are part of “physical”.

I believe he is referring to Theology of the Body.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Wow - you really don’t understand, do you?

I have never read from any poster on this or any other forum that they would do all those horrible things except that they’re afraid that God will punish them. Murders? Torturing? C’mon. That is absolutely ridiculous. Did you report these posts? Did you respond to these posts? Anyone who posts that he/she wants to engage in these activities is either psychotic or is a troll but needs professional help in either case.

I’m not surprised that you value Cafeteria Catholics. They have one foot out the door of an organization that you appear to loathe. I know about Cafeteria Catholics because I used to be one. It’s what happens sometimes when Catholics become lazy and don’t want to learn *why * the Church teaches what she does or who think they can change Church dogma or doctrine to fit what they want it to be. But the Church encourages us to question our faith. I have always been taught to question Catholic teaching by the Church herself. The Catholic Church is unlike many churches who demand unquestioning, mindless obedience and acceptance from their members. I question a lot of Church teachings. I do it all the time here on CAF.

As for belief, I can’t be forced to believe anything. I don’t think anyone can.

If “God” commanded me to murder someone I would head for the nearest psychiatric hospital ASAP. If “God” commanded me to rape someone I would first of all wonder why He would be commanding a woman to rape someone (I know it’s possible and I know it is done but I don’t think it would be that easy) and then I would head for the nearest psychiatric hospital.

God will not command me to do any of the horrendous actions you have listed because He can’t. He is omnipotent but He cannot go against His very nature and His nature is loving.

And there is one thing you should know about me: I do not lie. When I say that I try to be compassionate and kind because it’s the right way to be I mean exactly that. Of course I suppose I could be lying when I say I don’t lie but it seems kind of sad that you refuse to believe that I want to be a kind person yet you accept the claims of people who say they want to murder and torture without seeming to question those claims.

Actually God commanded people murdered all the time in the Old Testament (assuming you accept that as a source). And He seemed at best indifferent to the way that Israelite men raped Jewish women, slaves, and foreigners.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I would like to remind you that when you became a member of CAF you agreed to follow the forum rules. One of these rules is that you treat the Catholic Church with respect. You’re straddling the line here and I think that perhaps you may have stepped over it.

It is Church teaching. I am looking for the actual document. It is referenced in Peter Kreeft’s book Catholic Christianity, which does have a *Nihil obstat *and Imprimatur. I’m not very good at finding Church documents but I’m doing my best here.

That’s horrible.

Every act is a moral act (and therefore worthy of regulation).

What I eat, how I read, the colors I choose, the way I go to the bathroom, all the business of the Church and its busybodies…

Makes me more glad than ever that I’m not a Catholic.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I would disagree with that.
I think that traditionally (as a group) Catholics are very squeamish when it comes to sex.
But I admit that its just a personal opinion:shrug:

 

[LittleSoldier]

Amazing, but it happened, and not just once. Of course I did not report them, why should I have done such a thing? And whether they are psychotic or not, it is not my place to decide. They did not seem to be.

I’m requesting links to these posts. Thank you.

The point was “IF… he did order, what would you do”? After all he DID order Abraham to kill his own son and only in the last moment did he stay the process - if you believe the Bible. He ordered the the full-blown genocide a few times, and he personally slaughtered all the humans and all the animals - if you believe the Bible. So it is not unheard of. The hypothetical question is a valid one. So, suppose you did get the order, and you ran to the nearest hospital, and you did get a clean bill of health… what would you do then?

This is *exactly *what I expected you to write! First of all, there is a huge difference between killing and murder. You have used the word “killing” with respect to Abraham and the word “murder” with respect to me. God would not order me to murder anyone. If I received what was allegedly a clean bill of health (which would surprise me because I would obviously be delusional, not to mention a clear threat to others) I would disregard the command because it did not come from God.

As to Abraham and a reference to the flood (please correct me if I am wrong), I honestly don’t know why God did what He did because I am not an OT Bible scholar (and I’m pretty weak on the NT, too) but there is a huge difference between God taking lives which belong to Him and *my *taking of an innocent life. Please don’t compare my actions (putative or real) to the actions of God. God is divine; I am not.

I did noy say that I don’t believe you, I only said that I had my reservations. I was just as astonished to see those posts as you are now. I asked for clarification and they affirmed that it was not a joke.

You implied strongly that you did not believe me. Please provide a link to these posts.

Respect does not mean agreement. Nowhere and never have I said that the church is “the whore of the devil” or anything similar to that. I did say that I find many things the church teaches irrational and illogical. Is that “disrespect”? I don’t think so.

I believe the phrase is “whore of Babylon.” But when one brings up things like how one respects Cafeteria Catholics *because they thumb their noses at Rome *it is more than disagreement. It is disrespect to the Catholic Church.

I appreciate your effort. I will not be surprised if you find something along those lines, I am simply curious. And - by the way - if you are successful then I will add this new find to the list what I find irrational and illogical.

In that case I will cut my search short until someone who really wants to understand Church teaching (and my personal belief that I came to when I was not a practicing Catholic) *and * has an open mind requests that particular document.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Not to take the thread off-topic, but is there a “/font” showing up on my posts? It’s not showing up when I post them but it is showing up when I am quoted. Weird. If it’s there I’ll try to see what I’m doing wrong.

 

[LittleSoldier]

That’s horrible.

Every act is a moral act (and therefore worthy of regulation).

What I eat, how I read, the colors I choose, the way I go to the bathroom, all the business of the Church and its busybodies…

Makes me more glad than ever that I’m not a Catholic.

I’m sorry; I think I may have misunderstood the question. Please let me clarify. Of course there are actions which are neutral (and I think I have already stated so in this thread). What the Church teaches is that every sin hurts everyone and every good act helps everyone.

I’m sorry that I misunderstood. I shouldn’t have because the question was clear.