The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

[Calvin_95]

Also, she is prophesied in the Apocalypse of St. John that she is the Queen of Heaven.

Here is a list of verses and their explanation. It will explain it clearer than I ever could:

The word seed is used over 200 times in the OT in like-manner, so the explanation is fallible from the start. To say Jesus represents “enmity” here is blasphamous. The clear meaning is God will put “hostility” between man and Satan, hostility between God and Satan previously existed.

Does the “Apocalypse of St. John” hold more weight than Scripture in the Catholic church? If not, then why post that which contradicts Scripture?

 

[Calvin_95]

Mary is supremely important to all Christians. However, many Christians, out of some desire to be “not Catholic”, now either ignore her, suppress her memory, or even insult her as nothing more than a womb. They judge God in doing that, but Mary still prays for them.

Both Luther and Calvin, who venerated Mary, would likely be shocked to see how today’s bible Christians demean God’s chosen Woman.

God could just as easily have created a human nature for Jesus from nothing - but He didn’t. He created Mary specifically for one purpose. Something to think about.

Is that in Scripture; Mary prays for who? Why do Catholics tell non-Catholic that they venerate instaed of worship; is it PC? Veneration is worship you know; look it up if you don’t believe me and God spoke something on that issue somewhere in both the OT and NT.

If God created Mary for one purpose, then what about her husband and other children? If the birth was the only purpose, then why do you exhult her as co-mediatrix and “Queen of Heaven”?

 

[Calvin_95]

The proper question should actually read…And the proper answer is again, no.

Mary is the 2nd most unique person in all human history aside from Christ as she is the focus point of so much prophecy of the coming of Christ. To deny or deride her place is to attempt to make less of the plan of God for our salvation. She played a vital role in His coming into the world on our behalf, and she performed/performs her proper role as Giberah/Queen Mother of the Davidic king and Messiah beginning even in John 2.

One man’s opinion. This is all good and I have a feeling most who post here will be reading this more than once.

 

[Calvin_95]

Would you have us remove from divine revelation all mentions of Mary? I refuse.

Actually; MD and I would both appreciate you keeping her in the context of Scripture alone.

 

[davidv]

Actually; MD and I would both appreciate you keeping her in the context of Scripture alone.

Why?

Scripture is not alone - Scripture evens says this.

 

[Calvin_95]

This is an interesting exchange. I have had many, many discussions with Moondweller, as have many of you. He is instigating a discussion here where he will likely come back with condemnation of Mary worship that is not scriptural.

He simply doesn’t understand the communion of Saints, where we all help each other to grow in holiness. He sees intecession of the saints as someone coming between us and God, instead of how we see it, which is someone helping us to find our way to God. He sees the Catholic church in the same light. He sees the church as an entity that comes between us and God, rather than an organization of believers devoted to helping each other get to Heaven.

As InspiritCarol said, no one is required to pray to Mary. As a loving mother to us all, she is there to help those who want help, both as an inspiration on how to live our lives and say “yes” to God, and as a valuable intercessor to her son, As in all things, those that try to go it alone are at a disadvantage to those that seek and accept help.

I am enjoying the insightful discussion. If you already know what MD’s theology is on the topic & do not like it, then you can chose not to participate. I would not concern myself with what men see concerning intercession or prayer or anthing else, but I would be only concerned about what God has to say. Man can only harm the physical, God can harm the physical and the Spiritual soul.

 

[Calvin_95]

Let us pose some conundrums for a mythical CAF member, whom we shall call “MD”. Let MD explain how we would have Christ in the flesh without a mother. Let MD explain how God somehow erred in creating Mary for the purpose of bringing Salvation to the world. Let MD name another handmaid of the Lord. Let MD explain Elizabeth’s words of veneration. Let MD explain why scripture says that even MD’s generation will call her blessed. Let MD explain why Mary’s soul magnifies the infinite Lord. Let MD explain why Jesus remained with Mary for His entire life, from virgin womb to virgin tomb. Let MD explain why or how it was only Mary at the wedding feast who brought about the first miracle. Let MD explain how Mary would know that Jesus could perform a miracle - since it was His first. Let MD explain why a sword would pierce Mary’s soul, so that the thoughts of many hearts would be revealed. Let MD explain just how these thoughts are revealed - and to Whom. Let MD explain why Jesus on the cross gave a new son to Mary. Let MD explain who the Woman in Revelation 12 is. Let MD name a more blessed woman that has ever existed.

As to the devotion of Catholics and Orthodox to Mary, may MD equate it with the devotion and veneration that MD gives to the bible (IF this mythical “MD” is Christian). Let MD ponder: Mary does not save us - her Child Jesus does. The bible does not save you - Jesus does. Mary worship is a sin. Bible worship is a sin. Mary points to Jesus. The bible points to Jesus. Mary is mother of the Word incarnate. The bible tells us of both Mary and the Word Incarnate. Mary is sinless. The bible (with proper interpretation) is inerrant. Mary is in prophecy. The bible is not. Mary prays for us in the presence of God. The bible does not. MD’s problem is not Catholicism, Catholics, or even Mary.

This MD’s problem clearly is the bible, and that Catholics believe all of it.

Let us pray that “MD” will experience an increase in faith that will lead to understanding.

So w/out Mary there is no salvation?

 

[Calvin_95]

Why?

Scripture is not alone - Scripture evens says this.

Read Psalm 119, then come back and make that statement. Thanks.

 

[davidv]

You said "Mary was chosen by God (from the beginning of humanity ";

Who came first Jesus or Mary? If Jesus was God; why do you put Mary as a restriction on God? I thought Jesus was God; so why would there be no Jesus w/out Mary?

Relevance? These questions seems to be based on faulty presumptions.

 

[pablope]

Is that in Scripture; Mary prays for who? Why do Catholics tell non-Catholic that they venerate instaed of worship; is it PC? Veneration is worship you know; look it up if you don’t believe me and God spoke something on that issue somewhere in both the OT and NT.

If God created Mary for one purpose, then what about her husband and other children? If the birth was the only purpose, then why do you exhult her as co-mediatrix and “Queen of Heaven”?

I think there lies the disagreement…the word “Venerate”…looks like for you, it is worship. For us Catholics, venerate does not mean worship.

Does “praying” also mean worship to you?

 

[Calvin_95]

Relevance? These questions seems to be based on faulty presumptions.

Always easy to lift up the straw man when one is forced with an obvious error. It is always easier and best to admit errors in one’s logic and reasoning? Everyone makes errors.

 

[Calvin_95]

I think there lies the disagreement…the word “Venerate”…looks like for you, it is worship. For us Catholics, venerate does not mean worship.

Does “praying” also mean worship to you?

According to your own church; veneration is whorship and Merriam Webster also agrees. Praying means “to ask”; was there some point and if you don’t want to answer the question, then don’t post a response with a non-answer. What is the point in that?

 

[pablope]

According to your own church; veneration is whorship and Merriam Webster also agrees. Praying means “to ask”; was there some point and if you don’t want to answer the question, then don’t post a response with a non-answer. What is the point in that?

Trying to understand your point of view. And I hope you would do the same.

As for the Church’s definition of veneration…i am not sure it is as you say it is. I will have to look it up. Maybe, show us here where you got your definition of veneration and/or worship according to the CC?

 

[Calvin_95]

Trying to understand your point of view. And I hope you would do the same.

As for the Church’s definition of veneration…i am not sure it is as you say it is. I will have to look it up. Maybe, show us here where you got your definition of veneration and/or worship according to the CC?

What is the difference; you will continue to worship. If you want to know type in “Christian Worship” in Google, then look for the Catholic site.

 

[po18guy]

Is that in Scripture; Mary prays for who? Why do Catholics tell non-Catholic that they venerate instaed of worship; is it PC? Veneration is worship you know; look it up if you don’t believe me and God spoke something on that issue somewhere in both the OT and NT.

Please read and ponder the Greek terms “douleia” and “latreia”.

I must ask if you are really following the bible here. Where does it say that everything must be in scripture, or that everything actually is in scripture? It doesn’t. Saint Paul says to hold fast to both oral and written traditions. The bible has only half of what Saint Paul says were are to keep. Theology cannot be complete without both oral and written tradition (paradosis in Greek).

If God created Mary for one purpose, then what about her husband and other children? If the birth was the only purpose, then why do you exhult her as co-mediatrix and “Queen of Heaven”?

Catholics look at scripture in a completely different and more original manner than some others do. You may think the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, the Church, or any number of other things. Catholics believe that she is Mary.

p.s. “Calvin”? You mean the Jean Calvin that strongly believed in, and argued for the perpetual virginity of Mary? Hmmm…

 

[pablope]

What is the difference; you will continue to worship. If you want to know type in “Christian Worship” in Google, then look for the Catholic site.

What is the difference…that way, you will not be so judgemental…you will be more Christ-like in treating others…that hopefully, you will develop an air of humility and understanding, instead of an air arrogance.

See, you are looking at non-catholic sites, which would not accurately reflect what Catholics believe. You do not even want to consider our point of view, just your point of view…and there in lies your arrogance.

 

[ncgolf]

Who came first Jesus or Mary? If Jesus was God; why do you put Mary as a restriction on God? I thought Jesus was God; so why would there be no Jesus w/out Mary?

God chose that his Son was to be born of woman. How does this restrict God? It seems God chose this … and Mary accepted.

I can see why you are so confused.

 

[mo2169]

No matter which way you look at it, we (Catholics) do deviate (one way or another) from the main point (Jesus) and find all sorts of other alternatives… The thing that bothers me the most is the amount of times at mass or any other religious gathering, when a Saint, or Mary is mentioned (or thought of) comparing to the amount of times that Jesus is.

I understand the importance of Mary and all others who were chosen by God for their specific duties throughout time, but we need to understand that Jesus is our living God (See Holy Spirit). All others are below God - so I don’t understand why we do not act accordingly.

Do we not understand the He is the way?

 

[Spirithound]

What is Catholicism without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic faith without Mary?

Doctrinally, anything we say about Mary is a conclusion of Christology. For example, Mary is Mother of God because Jesus is God.

Who came first Jesus or Mary? If Jesus was God; why do you put Mary as a restriction on God? I thought Jesus was God; so why would there be no Jesus w/out Mary?

Mary came first. “Jesus” is the name that was given to the Second Person of the Trinity only after the Incarnation.

Does the “Apocalypse of St. John” hold more weight than Scripture in the Catholic church? If not, then why post that which contradicts Scripture?

The “Apocalypse of St. John” is a fancy name for the Book of Revelation. It is Scripture.

 

[Spirithound]

No matter which way you look at it, we (Catholics) do deviate (one way or another) from the main point (Jesus) and find all sorts of other alternatives… The thing that bothers me the most is the amount of times at mass or any other religious gathering, when a Saint, or Mary is mentioned (or thought of) comparing to the amount of times that Jesus is.

I understand the importance of Mary and all others who were chosen by God for their specific duties throughout time, but we need to understand that Jesus is our living God (See Holy Spirit). All others are below God - so I don’t understand why we do not act accordingly.

Do we not understand the He is the way?

Have you ever been to Mass? There is an opening prayer. Sometimes it makes reference to a saint, but it is addressed to God. There are readings, about God. During the Eucharistic prayer, there is an option for saints to be invoked; the prayer is still addressed to God. Then we receive Holy Communion, which is Jesus Christ Himself. Then there is a closing prayer, which may make reference to a saint, if it is their feast. But it is still addressed to God.

Please let us know how many times you think a saint is named in Mass?