The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

[InspiritCarol]

+JMJ+
Of course Jesus didn’t have to die. He is God. If He wanted to He could just have said so and all debts of man due to sin would be forgiven. If Jesus really wanted to save us from our sins through suffering He can just as easily use a pin prick, for since He is God, He is Perfect, anything He does is of Infinite value.

More heresy. Please take a step back and pray first. Your lack of concern as you reorder the universe is staggering. Please tell me where it says in the Bible or the Catechism that Jesus didn’t have to die for our sins. I appreciate that you are coming from a sound heart, centered in Christ, but you are not displaying that with statements like these. It is much safer to make your arguments with Bible verses. Then all can relate and understand.

That is why His Crucifixion is so stunning, so mind boggling, so awe and fear inspiring: that is how willing God is to show the depths and breadth of His love for us. Jesus was not forced by the Father to sacrifice Himself, nor was the Father coerced by the Son. It was by mutual agreement by all of the Trinity to give the world Himself and let Himself suffer the worst way to die to show how much He loves us.

See. Now THIS tells me that you get it, but I urge caution with your statements. They definitely send the wrong impression.

And why not? Is how Jesus lived less important than how He died?

I hate playing referee, but I have to say I think all that was intended was that this discussion was heading down that annoying, fruitless minutia route.

 

[nuntym]

More heresy. Please take a step back and pray first. Your lack of concern as you reorder the universe is staggering. Please tell me where it says in the Bible or the Catechism that Jesus didn’t have to die for our sins. I appreciate that you are coming from a sound heart, centered in Christ, but you are not displaying that with statements like these. It is much safer to make your arguments with Bible verses. Then all can relate and understand.

See. Now THIS tells me that you get it, but I urge caution with your statements. They definitely send the wrong impression.

Of course I do get it, InspiritCarol. What I was trying to say is just as Jesus’ dying on the Cross was the Trinity’s decision on how to save mankind, Mary was the Trinity’s decision on how to “start the ball rolling,” so to speak.

Yes, God could have used another virgin if Mary did not consent to being Jesus’ mother, but the mere fact (if you could say that “mere”) that she consented AND did the job perfectly places her in an important, irreplaceable role in the economy of salvation.

I hate playing referee, but I have to say I think all that was intended was that this discussion was heading down that annoying, fruitless minutia route.

Annoying? Oh I DO hope so. It is also quite annoying for me to see others trying to minimize Mary in the role of our salvation through, in my eyes, annoying, fruitless minutia.

God bless!

 

[paul_c]

Hey Paul C…i would not even bother…look at post #30 and 34…i was trying to start a meaningful dialogue…based on what his definitions were…look at his response in #34…i do not think he is here to talk…he is here to bash catholicism and make everone adhere to what he believed…which i would term self-righteousness…and score points for whereever he came from…

our responsibility here is to answer questions with Catholic Answers. Remember, There are many people reading these posts who may benefit more than the person the post is actually addressed to. Also remember, that posters like MD and Calvin 95 actually help others because they give us a forum to teach the Catholic faith. Without them, these threads die off very quickly because in most Cases, the Catholics are all in agreement

 

[pablope]

our responsibility here is to answer questions with Catholic Answers. Remember, There are many people reading these posts who may benefit more than the person the post is actually addressed to. Also remember, that posters like MD and Calvin 95 actually help others because they give us a forum to teach the Catholic faith. Without them, these threads die off very quickly because in most Cases, the Catholics are all in agreement

Paul C…thanks for setting me straight…i was thinking of this and I thought it was uncharitable of me…yes, you are right…others will benefit…it could be that MD and Calvin95 are used by God to send out his message…

 

[po18guy]

our responsibility here is to answer questions with Catholic Answers. Remember, There are many people reading these posts who may benefit more than the person the post is actually addressed to. Also remember, that posters like MD and Calvin 95 actually help others because they give us a forum to teach the Catholic faith. Without them, these threads die off very quickly because in most Cases, the Catholics are all in agreement

Well said. Many are those who are not strong in their Catholic faith and who come here in a personal search for the truth. Many non-Catholics also read these threads, while oftentimes only the most anti-Catholic of them will post a challenge. All eyes examine our responses and look for reason, clarity and yes, charity. One thing that we must pay mind to in our responses is that confidence can appear as arrogance. And, it is confidence that leads us to a strenuous defense of our faith. I note that is is not the most deeply rooted and fervent of Catholics who leave the faith - it is the lukewarm and the poorly catechized. Conversely, in the non-Catholic world, it is often those who most love our Lord and seek Him with all their hearts who leave their faith tradition and enter the Catholic faith. Famous examples abound.

While we are saddened and dismayed by those whose anti-Catholicism may blind them to the fulness of God’s revealed truth, our weapons remains the correct teaching of the Church, combined with reason and logic - just as the early fathers used in leading others to the truth. We are almost always confronted by a shallow theology, which did not exist more than about 100 years ago - more than 500 years ago at the most. But, our Christian brothers and sisters (as well as non-Christians) are not always incorrect in what they say. A partial truth, combined with a seeking heart, will lead to the fulness of truth. Let us try to respond to them as though they were at the door of our parish and we were planning to invite them in. The Rabbinic practice of answering a question with a question, as demonstrated by our Lord, is a time-honored method which is intended to provoke thought in the mind and heart of the challenger.

So, opposition can be seen as an attack of sorts, but even more, is an opportunity

 

[Corki]

our responsibility here is to answer questions with Catholic Answers. Remember, There are many people reading these posts who may benefit more than the person the post is actually addressed to. Also remember, that posters like MD and Calvin 95 actually help others because they give us a forum to teach the Catholic faith. Without them, these threads die off very quickly because in most Cases, the Catholics are all in agreement

Excellent pont. Many of these points are exactly what our children and friends are being presented with by those trying to attack their faith. It’s good to see concise replies that we can all use to strengthen our responses and our teaching.

 

[JustaServant]

What is Catholicism without Mary? IOW, is there a Catholic faith without Mary?

Your question MD is illogical. It’s like asking if there could be salvation without the incarnation.
I’m pretty certian of the motivation behind your question however.
So, why don’t you just come out and say it?

 

[moondweller]

Your question MD is illogical. It’s like asking if there could be salvation without the incarnation.
I’m pretty certian of the motivation behind your question however.
So, why don’t you just come out and say it?

Why don’t you just answer the question. Is there a Catholic faith without Mary? I didn’t ask if Jesus would have been born without Mary, nor challenge the fact that she bore Him, but, “is there a Catholic faith without Mary?” Now before you answer, think about the question. All I’ve gotten so far is just a bunch of defense answers…

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Why don’t you just answer the question. Is there a Catholic faith without Mary? I didn’t ask if Jesus would have been born without Mary, nor challenge the fact that she bore Him, but, “is there a Catholic faith without Mary?” Now before you answer, think about the question. All I’ve gotten so far is just a bunch of defense answers…

Catholic Faith is the totality of Revelation, moondweller. If a Catholic willingly and knowingly removes the Church’s infallible recognition of Mary’s role in our salvation from his/her Faith, then he/she has rejected Faith.

If the Catholic Church willingly and knowingly removes its recognition of Mary’s role in our salvation from its professions of faith, then it has deviated from Sacred Scripture, Tradition, and the proclamations of its Magisterium, and thus it ceases to be the Catholic Church, for it has rejected Truth which it should be defending and proclaiming.

Note the term I used: recognition. No Catholic is required to foster a special relationship with the Blessed Virgin. Each, however, is required, according to his/her capability, to recognize the role of Mary in our salvation as proclaimed by the Catholic Church through Scripture, Tradition, and the teachings of the Magisterium.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Why don’t you just answer the question. Is there a Catholic faith without Mary? I didn’t ask if Jesus would have been born without Mary, nor challenge the fact that she bore Him, but, “is there a Catholic faith without Mary?” Now before you answer, think about the question. All I’ve gotten so far is just a bunch of defense answers…

Moondweller,
This is really a meaningless exercise. The Catholic Church teaches the totality of truth about salvation. Your can’t exclude part of the truth and ask if its still the whole truth.

Mary is clearly part of the Church that Jesus founded. Why would you want to diminish that? Perhaps you should just play out your hand and tell us why you would ask such a question…

 

[Pax]

Why don’t you just answer the question. Is there a Catholic faith without Mary? I didn’t ask if Jesus would have been born without Mary, nor challenge the fact that she bore Him, but, “is there a Catholic faith without Mary?” Now before you answer, think about the question. All I’ve gotten so far is just a bunch of defense answers…

MD in Christ,

Your question is quite odd. That is like asking: “Is there a gospel of Luke without Mary?”

God bless.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If I had a computer program that contained all the known words in all languages, that would be a complete program.

Now, suppose I had a computer program that had all the known words in most languages, but missed a couple in some of the more ‘obscure’ languages. It would be a pretty good program, but it wouldn’t be complete. In fact, it would be ‘as good’ as the complete program in many of the languages and I probably wouldn’t even realize that this program wasn’t complete. . .until I actually experienced the true complete program.

But suppose that I considered myself a hot-shot linguistics person. Suppose that I had made that second, incomplete program and that, due to personal error (not malicious and not negligent) I simply did not get all the words.

And suppose that, out of pride, I then proceeded to claim that the first program had ‘made up’ words, had ‘added on’ words that didn’t exist, etc. Just in order to bolster my own claim, and just to keep from acknowledging that I might have been the one to make the error, I attack the people behind the ‘first’ program. I don’t even bother to go back and try the research again to see if I DID make an error, instead, I assume that any error is on the part of the other person.

Some (not all) Protestants are looking at Christian teaching on Mary from the position of the ‘second computer program’. Because their faith tradition does not ‘have’ the position found in the ‘first’ program (Catholicism/Orthodoxy), they consider it an ‘error’, an ‘add-on’. They don’t consider that they might have been the ones who made the error in ‘cutting this off’ way back when. . .

 

[Calvin_95]

Please read and ponder the Greek terms “douleia” and “latreia”.

You do not need to convince me that you worship statues, relics, Mary and dead saints; I’m convinced, but that means nothing, nothing. I would be concerned about how God sees it though.

I must ask if you are really following the bible here. Where does it say that everything must be in scripture, or that everything actually is in scripture? It doesn’t. Saint Paul says to hold fast to both oral and written traditions. The bible has only half of what Saint Paul says were are to keep. Theology cannot be complete without both oral and written tradition (paradosis in Greek).

Everything is not in Scripture; but all that God chose to reveal to the Christian is; to all others man has added to the Word of God, which God warned about doing in at least 2 places and maybe even a third. So again it matters not what I think; I always concern myself about what my Father thinks.

Catholics look at scripture in a completely different and more original manner than some others do. You may think the Woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, the Church, or any number of other things. Catholics believe that she is Mary.

Tha is not a “news-flash” and is expected.

p.s. “Calvin”? You mean the Jean Calvin that strongly believed in, and argued for the perpetual virginity of Mary? Hmmm…

So now Calvin has some weight? Huummm; what did he call the pope and the entire system? hummm Like all men he was not perfect, but I assure you no man except for Jesus was perfect.

Who is “Jean Calvin” anyway?

 

[Calvin_95]

What is the difference…that way, you will not be so judgemental…you will be more Christ-like in treating others…that hopefully, you will develop an air of humility and understanding, instead of an air arrogance.

See, you are looking at non-catholic sites, which would not accurately reflect what Catholics believe. You do not even want to consider our point of view, just your point of view…and there in lies your arrogance.

The pot calling the kettle black when they cannot refute what God has said. I guess that is arrogance from you perspective.

Actually; I used both Catholic and non-Catholic sites. EWTN, Catholic.org, NewAdvent, Catholic Encyclopedia, Baltimore Catechism, Ludwig Ott, Vatican site to name most of them.

 

[Calvin_95]

God chose that his Son was to be born of woman. How does this restrict God? It seems God chose this … and Mary accepted.

I can see why you are so confused.

That’s right, the humble slave of Christ, a sinner in need of a Savior chosen by God. Good Biblical theology. I can see why you are so confused.

 

[Calvin_95]

Doctrinally, anything we say about Mary is a conclusion of Christology. For example, Mary is Mother of God because Jesus is God.

Mary came first. “Jesus” is the name that was given to the Second Person of the Trinity only after the Incarnation.

Then Jesus cannot be God; since God always existed. Bad theology.

The “Apocalypse of St. John” is a fancy name for the Book of Revelation. It is Scripture.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Calvin_95]

Sola Scriptura is a doctrine created by Protestants that is not actually found in the Bible. Therefore, it is a teaching not found in the Bible that teaches someone to reject teachings not found in the Bible. So it is a doctrine that tells us to reject itself. Such a contradictory premise cannot be true, and likewise cannot truly come from God.

Are you suggesting that Psalm 119 teaches Sola Scriptura? That can’t possibly be true, or we would have to throw out every book in the Bible written after Psalm 119!

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually teaches on this topic:
Venerate means to “honor”. The Greek work for the honor that is due God alone is latria, which is understood in modern English as “worship.” The honor that we can give to fellow creatures is dulia. Mary is awarded by Catholics a special type of honor called hyper-dulia, acknowledging her as the mother of Jesus and likewise acknowledging the special role she played in salvation history, but the Catechism expressly teaches that this honor is still not the latria due God alone.

The 10 Commandments call us to honor our fathers and mothers, don’t they? Whatever you consider this kind of honor to be is in keeping with the honor Catholics give to Mary. The only difference is in terms of the manner of hyper-dulia that I described above.

And let me also add that Mary is the mother of every Christian, including you. Here’s why:

1. As taught in the New Testament, Jesus is the head of his Church, and we Christians make up the body.
2. The head of the Church, Jesus, has a mother: Mary.
3. The mother of the head is likewise the mother of the body. Therefore, Mary is the mother of every Christian.

Seeing as the 10 Commandments require us to honor our mothers, then what do you do, Calvin, to honor Mary? And what does your own church do? Get a school girl to dress up like her once a year at the Christmas pageant and then ignore her at all the other times during the year?

I got my info from an OFFICIAL vat approved site; and they say veneration is what it is worship, but that just grinds you for some reason. It is not what I see and know that counts. My opinion means nothing; God’s means everything.

 

[Calvin_95]

And let me also add that Mary is the mother of every Christian, including you. Here’s why:

1. As taught in the New Testament, Jesus is the head of his Church, and we Christians make up the body.
2. The head of the Church, Jesus, has a mother: Mary.
3. The mother of the head is likewise the mother of the body. Therefore, Mary is the mother of every Christian.

Seeing as the 10 Commandments require us to honor our mothers, then what do you do, Calvin, to honor Mary? And what does your own church do? Get a school girl to dress up like her once a year at the Christmas pageant and then ignore her at all the other times during the year?

Here is the problem 1) she is a creature and no more important than me or Joseph or Paul or Peter, we are all chosen of God and God shows no partiality and His love is perfect to all He has chosen, but that would mean you have to know Him and to know Him is to understand and to love Him for who He actually is. 2) What about Mary’s mother, Mary’s grand mother, great grand mother, great great grand mother; you see taking it to the nth degree we come back to Adam and Eve, which brings us straight to God as the Creator of all creatures. Are all these mother’s of God? No! God is not a creature and therefore has no mother in the sense you seem to think of it.

 

[Calvin_95]

+JMJ+

If Jesus died another way, i.e. not by the Cross, is there no salvation?

Mary is as important as the Cross of Christ, for it is through Mary that Jesus entered the world, and it is with Mary that Jesus lived for 30 years, and Mary accompanied Jesus to His death, as it was through the Cross that we are saved.

God bless.

That is blasphemous; it is the resurrection where Jesus proved He defeated death and the penalty of death and allows God to justify the ungodly. You missed the whole thing.

 

[Calvin_95]

You see, Calvin, you and Moondweller have separated yourself from the Church and all her traditions, with the exception of scripture. Why, however, should we be subject to your self-imposed limitations? And just because you don’t accept help from the Church or from Mary, why shouldn’t we? That is purely your option, and it is indeed self limiting. As for me, I’ll take as much help as I can get on the road to Heaven. You know why we venerate Mary and the Saints, its because they are already in heaven and following them leads us there as well…

Praise God; His grace abounds. It is purely God’s Word. Jesus said I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE–> NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME. Can’t get any clearer than that can it? So much for Mary as co-mediatrix for there is no mediator between man and God which we can be saved. To believe that though you have to pick one authority over another. I choose the biblical authority. To each his/her own way; for me and my houshold we have chosen the narrow road and have entered by the narrow door, which is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.