The Indult

[mercygate]

Fullsizesedan:

I’m middleaged (48), so I went to the Latin mass for a funeral back in the old days, but its so 1960s, I don’t see how its that relevant today.

I suppose if someone never attended it, how nostaglia could inspire them, but really its old news.

As a Convert, I find TLM absolutely relevant, and nostalgia, of course, is not a factor. TLM is breathtaking in its reverential awe.

Since I am familiar with the texts of the rite, my surprise in attending my first LM since my pre-Catholic days, when it was the only option, was that the congregation is so completely segregated from the process. My Latin is actually quite good, and I had a missal with me, but I could never catch up with the celebrant. He was half a page ahead of me all the time. Only the Sanctus bells helped me figure out where he was. But he was over 90, and he missed or misplaced some of the genuflexions – so maybe he was a little lost elsewhere. This was a low Mass, provided rather grudgingly by the pastor only in response to the bishop’s request.

 

[deogratias]

I think Reverence is the #1 reason most Trads prefer the TLM. It is a hard question to answer, why I prefer it other than to say I find a peace and serenity there and find it more spiritual an experience than most any NOM I have ever attended. I attended a NOM at Holy Ghost in Denver where I had the same sense of reverence and one in Houston on the campus of some University there where a friend took me - totally without abuses and for the most part, “quiet”.

Having just typed this, I would have to say the absence of noise both by the faithful and in the music contribute a lot to my serenity.

The other reason would be the prayers and the humility exhibited by the altar servers - how these young men, some of them very young, learn all those prayers in Latin and all the rubics they must perform is most admirable.

I love the music of a high Mass - I love the chant and the old Traditional Hymns. I love the pomp too.

I love the mystery.

I love the Mass ad orientum where we are all - even the priest, worshiping Christ in the same direction. I love the elevation of the host high above the priest’s head so we can all see and worship Christ. I love the sanctus bells, the breast striking, the genuflecting.

I love that the priest crosses himself 33 times instead of 3.

and I love the consistency of the liturgy.

Well I found more reasons that I thought I could as to why I love the TLM.

 

[ServusChristi]

Thank you for your thoughts so far.

I too am a convert and I find the traditional Mass completely relevant. It seems like sometimes we lose track of the fact that the world must change for the Church, not the other way around. Are we preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and spreading His doctrines, or is the world teaching us its doctrines?

I am not entirely inflexible when it comes to the liturgy, but I do think the presentation of the Novus Ordo, that is the Pauline Rite, is deficient in many regards today. I don’t think these deficiencies are insurmountable though. When and if the Pauline Rite will be fixed remains to be seen.

One of the things I most appreciate about the traditional Mass is the facing of the Priest. When I recall the sacrificial rites in the Old Testament, it reminds me that the Priest faced in toward the holy of holies in order to propitiate God. Could you imagine a Jewish priest facing the people while he sacrificed a lamb? I can’t. As far as I know, the various rites in the Church all have the priest facing the east or the tabernacle, except for the NO.

I’ve read that Cardinal Ratzinger believes this should be changed as part of the ‘Reform of the Reform’. Hopefully many of his ideas will come to fruition.

I also appreciate the head coverings. I am reminded that every woman is a holy creation of God. This doesn’t have to be isolated to the traditional Mass, but sadly it usually is. I have gone to enough Masses where the ladies are scandalously dressed in the house of God, not to mention guys in sports jerseys or T-shirts.

That traditional Mass also brings us back in time. I feel a connection to the ancient and mediaeval patrimony of the Church. It is otherwordly. The old liturgy lifts us upward toward Christ.

I want to worship as my grandfather and great-grandfather did, as Pope Saint Pius X and Blessed Pius IX did, as Saint Therese, Saint Thomas, Saint Ignatius, Saint Francis, Saint Dominic, and most of the Latin father and saints did.

That is why the traditional Mass is more that just a relic of the past. It is the living history of the Catholic Church. I do hope and pray that the indult will be extended generously everywhere to everyone who wants it.

I do believe that the old Mass is the Mass of the future!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Thanks to deogratias and ServusChristi for their comments, I would have to second them.

I am also a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism and have attended both the Indult and the Novus Ordo.

I would simply have to say that I find a spiritual satisfaction with the old Latin Mass that can stay with me for days even after I have attended. With the New Mass I go, and of course believe it is valid, but I simply am not lifted to an encounter with Christ as with the old Mass.

I also like the idea that I am praying the same prayers as Padre Pio or Joan of Arc or any number of my favorite Saints. I mean, the old Liturgy itself helped them to become holy and I believe it can do the same for others who assist at it.

With the Novus Ordo it seems as if much of it is repeating what has been appointed by a committee.

Also, I believe the beauty, reverence, and formality of the old Latin Mass, along with the strong doctrinal content, is particularly attractive to men (as well as women).

Thanks for this thread.

 

[krazykatlady]

There is no Indult in my state and the closest in any direction is 3-4 hours, one way. We now have a cheap fare airline in my town and I am thinking of flying to Washington, DC once a month to go to TLM at Old St. Mary’s. I can visit daughters while I’m there.

 

[misericordie]

krazykatlady:

There is no Indult in my state and the closest in any direction is 3-4 hours, one way. We now have a cheap fare airline in my town and I am thinking of flying to Washington, DC once a month to go to TLM at Old St. Mary’s. I can visit daughters while I’m there.

How sad their is NO indult Mass there. PLEASE note, you can respectfully request it from your Bishop(Canon Law gives you the right to make your concerns known to the “pastors of souls”). Many Bishops STIll don’t get it, if there are many people who do want to attend the Latin Tridentine Rite Mass, and because of lack of pastoral concern of the bishop for the souls of his flock he chooses NOT to give the indult)because of his personal liberal agenda) he is just going to push those catholics to the SSPX Masses ONLY. Especially those REALLY attached to the Latin Tridentine Mass.
Anyway, for information, and advice on the Latin Tridentine Mass of the INDULT, see Ecclesia Dei’s web site at: www.ecclesiadei.org God bless, and hopefully soon your diocese will give the indult.

 

[misericordie]

deogratias:

I think Reverence is the #1 reason most Trads prefer the TLM. It is a hard question to answer, why I prefer it other than to say I find a peace and serenity there and find it more spiritual an experience than most any NOM I have ever attended. I attended a NOM at Holy Ghost in Denver where I had the same sense of reverence and one in Houston on the campus of some University there where a friend took me - totally without abuses and for the most part, “quiet”.

Having just typed this, I would have to say the absence of noise both by the faithful and in the music contribute a lot to my serenity.

The other reason would be the prayers and the humility exhibited by the altar servers - how these young men, some of them very young, learn all those prayers in Latin and all the rubics they must perform is most admirable.

I love the music of a high Mass - I love the chant and the old Traditional Hymns. I love the pomp too.

I love the mystery.

I love the Mass ad orientum where we are all - even the priest, worshiping Christ in the same direction. I love the elevation of the host high above the priest’s head so we can all see and worship Christ. I love the sanctus bells, the breast striking, the genuflecting.

I love that the priest crosses himself 33 times instead of 3.

and I love the consistency of the liturgy.

Well I found more reasons that I thought I could as to why I love the TLM.

I LOVE your posts here! It is very well argued, and is objective and VERITAS. You have said it better than I could ever expalin the reasons I go too, and more than 19 of my friends.(all of us in our 20’s and 30’s). WELL DONE:clapping:

 

[misericordie]

Again, for those interested in learning more about the Latin Tridentine Mass of the Indult(PONTIFICALLY APPROVED BY POPE JOHN PAUL II), and all related to it, the site is:
[www.ecclesiadei.org](http://www.ecclesiadei.org)

 

[deogratias]

Thank you for your kind words Misericorde. By the way our Latin Community here in the Phoenix Diocese is called Miserecordae Mater because all TLM Communities have a special devotion to Mary and because we feel it is a real act of Mercy that at last we have this licit TLM here - many of us prayed a long time for it. If I could use an analogy, many of us just wandered the desert, thirsty and dry but obedietnly attending the NOM to meet our Sunday obligations, others sought drink at the SSPX and other ilicit TLM’s in the valley which were really not oasis but mirages as I see it. I wanted the TLM.

But I want also to always be faithful to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church of the baptized faithful who believe in the same faith, receive the same sacraments and obey the Pope. The Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter as its rock and foundation. The Church that faithfully preaches the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments licitly and shepherd His people with love and truth.

This is the Church I believe in and this is the Church those who attend the NOM believe in. Our differences are liturgical preferences and not matters of faith.

 

[condan]

misericordie:

Before I go into an in depth explanation to your question, what is it you mean by “you would leave the church because you can’t have it your way”? If you mean attending the Latin Tridentine Mass is “leaving the Church” I suggest you read Pope John Paul II’s Letter: “Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei”, in which he not only supports the Latin Tridentine Mass, but exhorts all Bishops to offer the INDULT for the Mass in their Dioceses, and to be genourous in so doing. On the other hand, if you mean those who frequent the SSPX Masses, Cardinal Ratzinger has said that, “they are not OUTSIDE the Church, and if a Catholic attends the SSPX Tridentine Latin Mass at one of their chapels on a SUNDAY, they fulfill their SUNDAY obligation.” Hence, please explain what you mean by: “You woulod leave the Church because you won’t get your way”??

I did not know that. Thank you!

 

[condan]

ServusChristi:

Thank you for your thoughts so far.

I too am a convert and I find the traditional Mass completely relevant. It seems like sometimes we lose track of the fact that the world must change for the Church, not the other way around. Are we preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and spreading His doctrines, or is the world teaching us its doctrines?

I am not entirely inflexible when it comes to the liturgy, but I do think the presentation of the Novus Ordo, that is the Pauline Rite, is deficient in many regards today. I don’t think these deficiencies are insurmountable though. When and if the Pauline Rite will be fixed remains to be seen.

One of the things I most appreciate about the traditional Mass is the facing of the Priest. When I recall the sacrificial rites in the Old Testament, it reminds me that the Priest faced in toward the holy of holies in order to propitiate God. Could you imagine a Jewish priest facing the people while he sacrificed a lamb? I can’t. As far as I know, the various rites in the Church all have the priest facing the east or the tabernacle, except for the NO.

I’ve read that Cardinal Ratzinger believes this should be changed as part of the ‘Reform of the Reform’. Hopefully many of his ideas will come to fruition.

I also appreciate the head coverings. I am reminded that every woman is a holy creation of God. This doesn’t have to be isolated to the traditional Mass, but sadly it usually is. I have gone to enough Masses where the ladies are scandalously dressed in the house of God, not to mention guys in sports jerseys or T-shirts.

That traditional Mass also brings us back in time. I feel a connection to the ancient and mediaeval patrimony of the Church. It is otherwordly. The old liturgy lifts us upward toward Christ.

I want to worship as my grandfather and great-grandfather did, as Pope Saint Pius X and Blessed Pius IX did, as Saint Therese, Saint Thomas, Saint Ignatius, Saint Francis, Saint Dominic, and most of the Latin father and saints did.

That is why the traditional Mass is more that just a relic of the past. It is the living history of the Catholic Church. I do hope and pray that the indult will be extended generously everywhere to everyone who wants it.

I do believe that the old Mass is the Mass of the future!

How beautifully put! Agree totally.

 

[misericordie]

deogratias:

Thank you for your kind words Misericorde. By the way our Latin Community here in the Phoenix Diocese is called Miserecordae Mater because all TLM Communities have a special devotion to Mary and because we feel it is a real act of Mercy that at last we have this licit TLM here - many of us prayed a long time for it. If I could use an analogy, many of us just wandered the desert, thirsty and dry but obedietnly attending the NOM to meet our Sunday obligations, others sought drink at the SSPX and other ilicit TLM’s in the valley which were really not oasis but mirages as I see it. I wanted the TLM.

But I want also to always be faithful to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The Church of the baptized faithful who believe in the same faith, receive the same sacraments and obey the Pope. The Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter as its rock and foundation. The Church that faithfully preaches the Gospel faithfully, administer the sacraments licitly and shepherd His people with love and truth.

This is the Church I believe in and this is the Church those who attend the NOM believe in. Our differences are liturgical preferences and not matters of faith.

YOU ARE TOTALLY RIGHT AND I AGREE HERE WITH YOU. YES, though we are traditional, and love the Latin Tridentine Mass, we MUST attend the INDULT TLM, and not seperate from Pope John Paull II, Rome and Lawful Church authority. We MUST attend valid AND LICIT TLM.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Concerning the Sunday obligation, I was under the impression that it is fulfilled by attending an SSPX Mass if and only if there is no non-schismatic Mass available. Not just if there is no Tridentine Mass, but no Catholic Mass at all. So I would like to see the context from which Ratzinger was quoted. As for me, I’ve only ever been to one indult Mass (celebrated years ago for my parish’s 125th anniversary), so I’m rather unfamiliar with it. I’m thinking of trying to get one established up at school, though, if for nothing else than in the interests of appreciating the full (legitimate) diversity the Church has to offer. I’m drawn to the sense of sacred of the old rite and would love a chance to experience it more.

 

[misericordie]

Andreas Hofer:

Concerning the Sunday obligation, I was under the impression that it is fulfilled by attending an SSPX Mass if and only if there is no non-schismatic Mass available. Not just if there is no Tridentine Mass, but no Catholic Mass at all. So I would like to see the context from which Ratzinger was quoted. As for me, I’ve only ever been to one indult Mass (celebrated years ago for my parish’s 125th anniversary), so I’m rather unfamiliar with it. I’m thinking of trying to get one established up at school, though, if for nothing else than in the interests of appreciating the full (legitimate) diversity the Church has to offer. I’m drawn to the sense of sacred of the old rite and would love a chance to experience it more.

It is so greta you want to get one established for your school if I am correct?  I go on SUNDAYS to the Tridentine Latin Mass, (of the INDULT: The licit one) and on weekdays I go to the Novus Ordo, in a parish which offers the Novus Ordo Mass following ALL the liturgical laws, and rubrics, well, because for now, the Tridentine Latin  Mass of the Indult is offered ONLY ON Sundays, in this Archdiocese.  Hopefully in the future, it will be offered on weekdays too(low Mass)?
 I am very happy that you have some interest in The Tridentine Latin Mass of Indult.  Have you seen the Ecclesia Dei Coalition's site:  They can help with the Archdiocesan/Diocesan process of getting an Indult Mass.   [www.ecclesiadei.org](http://www.ecclesiadei.org)

 

[misericordie]

By the way, for all those here who are interested in finding an INDULT Tridentine Latin Mass close to your area, the Coalition in support of Ecclesia Dei, offers a directory of parishes which do, in all ther USA.
For listings of the catholic Tridentine Latin Mass OF THE INDULT: [www.ecclesiadei.org](http://www.ecclesiadei.org)

 

[deogratias]

I know you mean to be helpful but isn’t this about the umpteenth time you have posted their web site?

 

[misericordie]

deogratias:

I know you mean to be helpful but isn’t this about the umpteenth time you have posted their web site?

Yes you are right: I AM TRYING TO BE HELPFUL. , Hopefully, helping those who are interested in LEARNING more on the Tridentine Latin Mass of the INDULT, is NOT a sin???

 

[deogratias]

No one said it was sinful and I am sorry that my post offended you. But you did post that web site in two consecutive replies. Posting it so frequently could be construed by some to be spamming.

I have started a new thread titled What are your Favorite LInks. Perhaps you would want to post it there and then you would not have to repeat it so often. (Just trying to be helpful)

 

[Mandi]

misericordie:

Yes you are right: I AM TRYING TO BE HELPFUL. , Hopefully, helping those who are interested in LEARNING more on the Tridentine Latin Mass of the INDULT, is NOT a sin???

I don’t always read all threads, so I see nothing wrong with posting the same thing in various threads. Sometimes I find I repeat myself but feel the subjects require the same answer or thought.

It would appear to me that deogratias does not encourage attendance at an Indult Mass??? Which is very interesting considering he has chosen a Latin pen name???

The Latin Mass is the MOST Beautiful thing on the planet!
I say post your site again!

 

[deogratias]

Mandi:

I don’t always read all threads, so I see nothing wrong with posting the same thing in various threads. Sometimes I find I repeat myself but feel the subjects require the same answer or thought.

It would appear to me that deogratias does not encourage attendance at an Indult Mass??? Which is very interesting considering he has chosen a Latin pen name???

The Latin Mass is the MOST Beautiful thing on the planet!
I say post your site again!

My goodness Mandi - this is definitely an example of selective reading and assumption on your part and it is quite obvious that you do not read all the threads or your statement about my not encouraging attendance at the Indult Mass would stand as it is, outrageous. If you would bother to read all my many posts, you would see that there is no greater supporter of the Indult Mass than I am.

I not only support the Indult TLM, I attend every Sunday and if it was offered daily, I would go then also.

That does not mean that I can’t question the need to repeatedly post the same link and I do believe it is discouraged in forum rules if I read them correctly. I would like an apology.