The infallable pope

[ron77nyc]

Maybe you’d be better off in a Protestant church. Why remain Catholic if so many complaints?

According to Church law I would be eternally lost if I left the Church. I was born into the Church. They are stuck with me. Maybe I should just be a Catholic who doesn’t care about anything. Then I could go on Christmas and Easter and be considered a good Catholic.

 

[churchcamefirst]

According to Church law I would be eternally lost if I left the Church. I was born into the Church. They are stuck with me. Maybe I should just be a Catholic who doesn’t care about anything. Then I could go on Christmas and Easter and be considered a good Catholic.

So you are only Catholic according to church law? Not because you believe it is the true church? Not because your heart is really in it? What are you so angry about?

 

[rinnie]

If you think I don’t know the Bible then don’t blame me. Blame the Franciscan Brothers who had my complete attention for 4 years and gave me an excellent academic education but did not even suggest opening a bible.

Now come on Ron you know how much the Franciscan Brothers know and how good and loyal they are to the faith. Just because they may not have used the bible does not mean they did not teach the truth. They are just living proof you need them as teachers more than you need to have the bible alone.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Imagine that… A Catholic who knows the Bible sounds like a Protestant.

I know the Bible as well. It is not the Bible that makes you like a Protestant. Rather it’s your objection to certain teachings of the Catholic Church. Objections or protesting Church teaching is what I was implying.

A Catholic who is obedient to the Catholic Church can revere Scripture as much as any Protestant.

You seem to forget that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

 

[ron77nyc]

So you are only Catholic according to church law? Not because you believe it is the true church? Not because your heart is really in it? What are you so angry about?

I was very involved in a Catholic music ministry for many years. I now go to both Protestant and Catholic churches. What I’m so angry about is this: The Catholic Church wants to claim ownership of God. They say you can only receive grace through the sacraments and they are the only ones who have the authority to interpret scripture and give out the sacraments. When you go outside the Catholic Church you see that other denominations have the Holy Spirit and they do receive grace from God and they have a relationship with Jesus that is unencumbered by endless laws. Jesus said come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My burden is easy, my yoke is light. I don’t think he ever intended for us to have so many rules and laws and things to learn. He said “Learn of me.” He comes first. In most of my years as a Catholic He was put on the back burner.

 

[mercygate]

I was very involved in a Catholic music ministry for many years. I now go to both Protestant and Catholic churches. What I’m so angry about is this: The Catholic Church wants to claim ownership of God. They say you can only receive grace through the sacraments and they are the only ones who have the authority to interpret scripture and give out the sacraments. When you go outside the Catholic Church you see that other denominations have the Holy Spirit and they do receive grace from God and they have a relationship with Jesus that is unencumbered by endless laws. Jesus said come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My burden is easy, my yoke is light. I don’t think he ever intended for us to have so many rules and laws and things to learn. He said “Learn of me.” He comes first. In most of my years as a Catholic He was put on the back burner.

When you put Jesus on the front burner, all the “endless laws” will appear to be exactly what they are: articulations of things you are already doing because your will shall be completely conformed to His. The “endless laws” are guideposts, streetlights for those who are walking in the dark.

 

[PerryJ]

I don’t blame them regarding my salvation. I was saved when I received Holy Communion. That’s when I first heard the Gospel preached. That’s when I had faith but didn’t know it’s importance. I blame the Brothers for not teaching the faith. I think they were confused about it also. The Protestants explained the Bible to me and explained the importance of faith in Christ.
I think people on this thread get everything all twisted up. Maybe they are angry.

Don’t be misguided. They teach you their version of the Faith. I was a Protestant. Each faith, each pastor stresses different verses to support their personal beliefs. Protestants get some of the turth; but, not all of it.

 

[ron77nyc]

When you put Jesus on the front burner, all the “endless laws” will appear to be exactly what they are: articulations of things you are already doing because your will shall be completely conformed to His. The “endless laws” are guideposts, streetlights for those who are walking in the dark.

I get what you’re saying. Thanks

 

[Usagi]

No, I don’t want examples. Everyone has examples. I want to know how many infallible declarations have been made by the Church and what they are.

Look for a book entitled Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott. Ott goes through the various propositions of Catholic teaching and identifies the degree of assent demanded of Catholics to each proposition. A proposition listed as de fide (“of the faith”) is infallibly taught and irreformable.

Naturally, not all such propositions come from direct declarations by the Pope. Some are straight from Scripture; others are matters of longstanding tradition; still others were defined at ecumenical councils, and finally, a few were solemnly defined by papal pronouncement.

The following site claims to list all the de fide propositions from Ott’s work, though I cannot personally certify that theirs is the complete list. Still, you may be happy to know that someone out there has attempted such a thing.

traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Dogmas_of_the_Church.html

(Disclaimer: I know nothing else about that site, except that it obviously claims to be a “traditionally Catholic” one, and I make no warrant as to its contents. It is possible that the moderators will delete the link if the site’s contents are found objectionable.)

Usagi

 

[PerryJ]

I was very involved in a Catholic music ministry for many years. I now go to both Protestant and Catholic churches. What I’m so angry about is this: The Catholic Church wants to claim ownership of God. They say you can only receive grace through the sacraments and they are the only ones who have the authority to interpret scripture and give out the sacraments. When you go outside the Catholic Church you see that other denominations have the Holy Spirit and they do receive grace from God and they have a relationship with Jesus that is unencumbered by endless laws. Jesus said come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My burden is easy, my yoke is light. I don’t think he ever intended for us to have so many rules and laws and things to learn. He said “Learn of me.” He comes first. In most of my years as a Catholic He was put on the back burner.

I certainly hope you are not giving these message to the Protestants you go to Church with as these statement are not correct. Other denominations do have the Holy Spirit. Catholics do not state that other faiths can not go to heaven. They state they do not have the fullness of the Truth. That is true. How can it be otherwise as they do not agree with each other.

Protestants also have laws. It just depends on which faith and which pastor you have that determines them. Some Protestant religions have more laws and are more severe in punishment than others. Some are liberal and let you do anything. Others have elders of the Church that punish transgression. I know of an elder at a Protestant Church that approached a man about his infidelity with his wife. He was going to kick him out of the Church. All the while he was stealing. The approach you seemed to be taking is the Catholic Faith is flawed; but, Protestants live in happy society were everyone loves one another. That is nonsense. Protestant Churches have the same failings as we do. Maybe you went to a parish that is very nice. Wonderful.

God wants people willing to follow his teachings. Sometimes this means sacrifice. Are there times I would love to go back to the easy life I had as a Protestant. Yes. In my denomination we didn’t have to self sacrifice. We could sin as much as we wanted wake up in the morning and profess I am sorry and everything was okay. Now I go to my fellow man profess my sins and the Lord forgives me. It is much easier to sin if you can do it in secret. Back then I could believe in the Prosperity gospel and make as much money as I wanted becaused God loved me and would provide everything I wanted. I could say once save always saved. I didn’t need to worry about today because I was forever saved. Nice idea. That is not how it works. Christ died on the cross and says follow me. Sometimes that means we have to sacrifice to show our love. People brought sin and misery in this world. It is our responsibility to help fix it. I don’t want to go back to everything is nice in the world and have blinders on. I am here to help fix it. Do you want it nice and touching or do you want to help your fellow man and fix the mess we created.

 

[ron77nyc]

I certainly hope you are not giving these message to the Protestants you go to Church with as these statement are not correct. Other denominations do have the Holy Spirit. Catholics do not state that other faiths can not go to heaven. They state they do not have the fullness of the Truth. That is true. How can it be otherwise as they do not agree with each other.

Protestants also have laws. It just depends on which faith and which pastor you have that determines them. Some Protestant religions have more laws and are more severe in punishment than others. Some are liberal and let you do anything. Others have elders of the Church that punish transgression. I know of an elder at a Protestant Church that approached a man about his infidelity with his wife. He was going to kick him out of the Church. All the while he was stealing. The approach you seemed to be taking is the Catholic Faith is flawed; but, Protestants live in happy society were everyone loves one another. That is nonsense. Protestant Churches have the same failings as we do. Maybe you went to a parish that is very nice. Wonderful.

God wants people willing to follow his teachings. Sometimes this means sacrifice. Are there times I would love to go back to the easy life I had as a Protestant. Yes. In my denomination we didn’t have to self sacrifice. We could sin as much as we wanted wake up in the morning and profess I am sorry and everything was okay. Now I go to my fellow man profess my sins and the Lord forgives me. It is much easier to sin if you can do it in secret. Back then I could believe in the Prosperity gospel and make as much money as I wanted becaused God loved me and would provide everything I wanted. I could say once save always saved. I didn’t need to worry about today because I was forever saved. Nice idea. That is not how it works. Christ died on the cross and says follow me. Sometimes that means we have to sacrifice to show our love. People brought sin and misery in this world. It is our responsibility to help fix it. I don’t want to go back to everything is nice in the world and have blinders on. I am here to help fix it. Do you want it nice and touching or do you want to help your fellow man and fix the mess we created.

 

[ron77nyc]

I certainly hope you are not giving these message to the Protestants you go to Church with as these statement are not correct. Other denominations do have the Holy Spirit. Catholics do not state that other faiths can not go to heaven. They state they do not have the fullness of the Truth. That is true. How can it be otherwise as they do not agree with each other.

God wants people willing to follow his teachings. Sometimes this means sacrifice. Are there times I would love to go back to the easy life I had as a Protestant. Yes. In my denomination we didn’t have to self sacrifice. We could sin as much as we wanted wake up in the morning and profess I am sorry and everything was okay. Now I go to my fellow man profess my sins and the Lord forgives me. It is much easier to sin if you can do it in secret. Back then I could believe in the Prosperity gospel and make as much money as I wanted becaused God loved me and would provide everything I wanted. I could say once save always saved. I didn’t need to worry about today because I was forever saved. Nice idea. That is not how it works. Christ died on the cross and says follow me. Sometimes that means we have to sacrifice to show our love. People brought sin and misery in this world. It is our responsibility to help fix it. I don’t want to go back to everything is nice in the world and have blinders on. I am here to help fix it. Do you want it nice and touching or do you want to help your fellow man and fix the mess we created.

It’s a jungle out there isn’t it. I know all about the false teachings of the Protestants. The Catholic Church says if a baptized Catholic leaves he loses his salvation.

 

[Usagi]

From the aforementioned list, I suspect the two of most interest to you (and most controversy of late) would be these:

VI:20. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

IX:6. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.

I did some extra looking into that second one, because it sounds very Feeneyite (a position I know has been condemned), and that is indeed the dogma. However, baptism of desire and baptism of blood (the two commonly believed ways of receiving the grace of the sacrament without the sacrament itself) are also mentioned in the further explanation/history of the dogma. The efficacy of baptism of desire and baptism of blood is of a lower order of certainty (sententia fidei proxima) and so does not appear on the list of de fide propositions.

The former proposition is not denied by the Church today, though a different “direction” is usually taken in stating it. Rather than “Anyone who is not a knowing, visible member of the Catholic Church is unsaved,” it’s more “Anyone who is saved is a member of the Catholic Church, even if not knowingly or visibly so.”

That’s a big shift, yes, but I believe there are reasons for it. We now live in a world in which generations of people have been brought up in non-Catholic Christian traditions. It’s no longer a matter of dealing with just rebellious heretics who ought to know better. Now we have Christians outside the visible bounds of the Catholic Church who are validly baptized and, as you say, obviously enjoy certain gifts and graces of God. They may be material heretics (that is, they believe heretical things), but very few would qualify as formal heretics (that is, those who obstinately deny what they know the Church teaches). Thus, while never denying that all the truth and grace they possess comes through the bits they took from us, we choose in this era to emphasize those shared points and then work on clearing up the points of difference through peaceful discussion, rather than the name-calling and violence that often characterized earlier eras.

Considering that recent dialogues with some of the really ancient breakaway groups have revealed that they don’t actually hold the heresies we always thought they did, but rather that we were both trying to protect the same truth and differed over the wording that was best to insure that protection, I think we may have hit upon something there.

Usagi

 

[ron77nyc]

From the aforementioned list, I suspect the two of most interest to you (and most controversy of late) would be these:

VI:20. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

IX:6. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception for salvation.

The former proposition is not denied by the Church today, though a different “direction” is usually taken in stating it. Rather than “Anyone who is not a knowing, visible member of the Catholic Church is unsaved,” it’s more “Anyone who is saved is a member of the Catholic Church, even if not knowingly or visibly so.”

Considering that recent dialogues with some of the really ancient breakaway groups have revealed that they don’t actually hold the heresies we always thought they did, but rather that we were both trying to protect the same truth and differed over the wording that was best to insure that protection, I think we may have hit upon something there.

Usagi

Jesus said that he would not lose any that the Father gave Him. So Jesus knows who belong to Him. We are all saved by grace and not by anything else. When we stand at the judgement we are all guilty of sin and anyone who is forgiven does not deserve it.

 

[mercygate]

Jesus said that he would not lose any that the Father gave Him. So Jesus knows who belong to Him. We are all saved by grace and not by anything else. When we stand at the judgement we are all guilty of sin and anyone who is forgiven does not deserve it.

Ain’t that the truth!

 

[Usagi]

Jesus said that he would not lose any that the Father gave Him. So Jesus knows who belong to Him. We are all saved by grace and not by anything else. When we stand at the judgement we are all guilty of sin and anyone who is forgiven does not deserve it.

Absolutely agreed.

Nothing that we do – not church membership, not sacraments, not charitable works, nothing – can earn us the favor of God or any “right” to Heaven.

On the other hand, if God has provided us a Church and sacraments to help us along the way, and places us in situations where we can help others and grow in sanctity through our works, we would be foolish not to take advantage of these opportunities.

Usagi

 

[rinnie]

I was very involved in a Catholic music ministry for many years. I now go to both Protestant and Catholic churches. What I’m so angry about is this: The Catholic Church wants to claim ownership of God. They say you can only receive grace through the sacraments and they are the only ones who have the authority to interpret scripture and give out the sacraments. When you go outside the Catholic Church you see that other denominations have the Holy Spirit and they do receive grace from God and they have a relationship with Jesus that is unencumbered by endless laws. Jesus said come to me all who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. My burden is easy, my yoke is light. I don’t think he ever intended for us to have so many rules and laws and things to learn. He said “Learn of me.” He comes first. In most of my years as a Catholic He was put on the back burner.

Ron as a fallen Catholic we could say, No offensive please. How can you possibly go to a protestant church and receive the Eucharist. Please no offense to any protestant faith, I am talking to you only Ron as a Catholic. This is what my Dad told me, I married a protestant and he said I could go to his church, BUT, and this is a big BUT, he said I must go to the Catholic Church in order to receive the Holy Eucharist. I believe that the protestant faith, (forgive me if i am wrong, but this is what my protestant friends tell me) the eucharist is a kind of rememberence of Christ, (forgive me, someone help me here i cant find the correct words.) Anyway Ron they do not believe that the Eucharist is the living Christ. Let me try another way in the Catholic Church when we receive the Eucharist that is Christ himself, That is it. Now am sorry Ron I can go and become a preacher tommorow, I can study the bible, But i cannot give you the Eucharist. I do not have the gift of HOLY ORDERS. Do you understand what i am saying? Jesus passed this on to his apostles. Do you see what i am saying? Please no offense to any other Religion, But only to you Ron, as a Catholic you must realize this. This is something that Christ himself did, he breathed on the Apostles and gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit, Do you believe this Ron? And then he gave them the POWER to pass this on. I understand Protestants do not believe this, thats okay, but Ron I am asking do you believe this?

 

[rinnie]

And one more thing ron, how could you possibly go to a Roman Catholic Church and receive the Eucharist, EVERY SUNDAY, DAY IN AND DAY OUT. THIS IS MY BODY WHICH HAS BEEN GIVEN UP FOR YOU, This is my Blood, How could you possibly say Christ was put on the back burner. Im not quite picking up what you are laying down Ron. This is said every single day of the week. every single mass. Never has it been skipped. This is the Catholic Mass, the Eucharist, when the door is opened CHRIST IS PRESENT. Hes there RON. How could Christ possibly be put on the back burner. THIS IS THE MASS. The most important thing, Jesus promised HE would be there, And he is.

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron as a fallen Catholic we could say, No offensive please. How can you possibly go to a protestant church and receive the Eucharist…Do you believe this Ron? And then he gave them the POWER to pass this on. I understand Protestants do not believe this, thats okay, but Ron I am asking do you believe this?

Yes. I believe the Eucharist is the real presence of Christ when received from a priest. If a Protestant minister does not believe this - if I am only receiving a symbol and just remembering what Christ has done I don’t see anything wrong with that.

 

[mercygate]

Yes. I believe the Eucharist is the real presence of Christ when received from a priest. If a Protestant minister does not believe this - if I am only receiving a symbol and just remembering what Christ has done I don’t see anything wrong with that.

Only one of those two positions can be true. Is it the subjective belief of the minister that determines whether or not Christ is present in the eucharist? Or is there an objective truth?