The Invention of Catholicism?

[jmcrae]

That’s OK but let’s not get sidetracked.

Who is sidetracking? You asked a question, and I answered.

Is this what Jesus had in mind when He trusted Peter with the keys to the kingdom?

It’s not the only thing. It’s a very small part of a much larger picture. The Bishops establish discipline in their Dioceses. The Pope establishes discipline for the whole Church. Discipline guards doctrine.

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself, why do we give up meat on Fridays? (Jesus gave up his “carna” - his meat - on a Friday. ) It’s a concrete, interactive way of helping us remember what Jesus did for us on a Friday so long ago, up there on the Cross.

 

[PJM]

The Church changed its teaching about salvation for those who are not Catholic, those who commit suicide and unbaptized infants. That means they got it wrong the first time.

My dear friend in Christ,

I think you may not quite have a proper understanding?

**The basic dictrines on both issues have not been “reversed.”, **rather “The Church” now admits (listen closely here) the POSSIBILITY, that God in his Mercy and Love, MIGHT, in Divine Justice (God’s call, not the Church’s or your or my call), God Might
in Divine Justice not condem all suicide victims to hell (on the possible grounds of temporary insanity), and that unbaptized infants, never having the personal option of cooperating with Christ for their salvation, may not be in “limbo,” but actually in heaven.

Both postions are taught (if correctly undersood) as being up the Loce and Mercy of God. Not our cll, BUT God’s call

 

[mark_a]

Jesus didn’t lie about anything so don’t try to accuse me of saying that. He said He would be with His church until the end that means even if they don’t follow His word and teach it as He did.

Would you tell us which denoms (and yes, you can call the Catholic Church a denomination if it fits) are the Church?

Please be specific.

 

[codebilly]

I don’t blame myself for that. Most of it happened before I was born because all those devout Catholics who sat in mass every week and heard those readings unexplained in a 3 year cycle never knew “the word was ‘a’ god” is an incorrect translation.

Hey … good thing that Ron77nyc points that out … now when all those old ladies line up to take God’s quiz on that, they have a chance to get in.

Maybe you’ll be in charge of giving the bible quiz entrance exam when you get to heaven.

Maybe God will have you send the old Italian ladies in your neighborhood to hell.

Because, offering a lifetime of simple prayers or grandmother’s devotion counts for nothing … God wants to test your bible knowledge.

 

[elvisman]

You’re in denial about this one.
Nope - you said they ALL stuck together.
Don’t use such sweeping generalizations to describe what a few did - and they should be and many have been punished.
ron77nyc;4819464:

Any discipline that is punishable by death (mortal sin) is not just a discipline and why don’t those bishops who like eating corned beef on discipline themselves on St. Patty’s Day?

One of my confirmation students told me that God wouldn’t send him to hell for watching football on Sundays instead of going to mass.
I told him that he was absolutely right. God doesn’t send you to hell - you go willingly. It’s not the football that is the sin - it’s the direct violation of the 3rd Commandment and the disobedience that makes it a sin. It’s the same thing in this situation. Read Romans where Paul speaks of the obedience of faith several times.
You really need to visit your catechism as well so you can have a clearer picture of Church doctrines and disciplines.

Jesus didn’t lie about anything so don’t try to accuse me of saying that. He said He would be with His church until the end that means even if they don’t follow His word and teach it as He did.

Jesus said that gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18). You say that they did. Ergo, Jesus is a liar according to your logic

 

[dawid]

The church is not supposed to be a group of elders sitting around making up rules for people to follow which they themselves don’t follow. Jesus condemned the Pharisees for doing that.

Jesus knew our human weaknesses when He chose His Apostles - He still instituted Peter as the head of His Church after Peter’s failings.
He also told His disciples that they should “do as the rabbis teach, not as they do”.
The Church hierarchy is also subject to human weaknesses.
The Church’s authority in matters of doctrine and teaching has survived unscathed.

 

[ron77nyc]

Would you tell us which denoms (and yes, you can call the Catholic Church a denomination if it fits) are the Church?

Please be specific.

I hope this is specific enough.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[ron77nyc]

Hey … good thing that Ron77nyc points that out … now when all those old ladies line up to take God’s quiz on that, they have a chance to get in.

Maybe you’ll be in charge of giving the bible quiz entrance exam when you get to heaven.

Maybe God will have you send the old Italian ladies in your neighborhood to hell.

Because, offering a lifetime of simple prayers or grandmother’s devotion counts for nothing … God wants to test your bible knowledge.

I’m not worried about the old Italian ladies in my neighjborhood. They were strong Catholics. I’m worried about the people I know now and their families who got sucked into a cult by a slick talking Watchtower representative who is trained to specifically target Catholics because they know these people don’t know the bible. I hardly ever here of a Protestant falling for that nonsense. A Protestant will say. “Let’s see what my bible says.”

 

[greggy53]

That’s what Catholis say, but we don’t read in Acts that the apostles were conducting Catholic mass services. In other words, the claim that Catholics find justification for the Real Presence in the NT is consistent with the claim that the justification was invented after the end of Acts.
Titus Flavius Vespasianus? I call him “your majesty”.

What?? St Paul certainly understood and believed in the real presence…
1 Corinthians
“The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?”

If thats not communion then the Pope ain’t Catholic!

 

[mercygate]

Are we absolutely certain about the gender of the child, whom some claim was st. ignatius of Antioch, who supposedly sat in Jesus’s lap? Could the child have been a female? Let’see; Jesus died around 33 AD, and the best estimates are that ignatius was born somewhere around 35 AD! Hmmmmm!

I’m putting my nickel on the idea that the notion that Ignatius was the child Jesus took into His arms was Ignatius comes under the heading of “pious invention.” I don’t buy it for a second. After all, the guy is Ignatius of Antioch. Not Ignatius of Capernaum.

 

[CoachSTL]

Bubba,

Catholocism is not a religion “invented” by men. Catholocism is an invented word meaning universality. This word is recorded as used by St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 107 AD in a letter to the Smrynaens. The word Catholic represented the need to identify the true Teachings of Christ and the true Church. There were many heretical teachings during this time, as there are today, and the Church “Fathers” needed to be able to identify the one true church established by Christ.

This Teaching of Christ is universal and passed on from the Apostles. Christians are “catholic” because they have made a covenant with God to beleive all that Jesus taught us. A Christian is Catholic (unified) in Christ’s Body because they follow all of the truth of Christ’s Teaching.

Prayerfully,

coachstl

 

[mercygate]

Substituting scripture readings at mass for bible study is like telling a child who always wanted piano lessons “We always played music in the house.”

I was born into Catholicism and I went to Mass every Sunday. I attended one of the best Catholic high schools in New York in the 1960’s just after Vatican II and the good brothers were seeking new ways to teach religion but no one ever considered teaching the bible. I realize bible studies are becoming more common in Catholic churches but still not easy to find. If you have one at your church you are very fortunate. The American Catholic church today is ahead of the rest of the Catholics in the world concerning the bible. My comments are directed more at the history of Catholicism than Catholicism today.

It is pointless to say that the Catholic Church “always” had Scripture studies. It has not.

While there has been an indulgence for reading Scripture since the mid-19th Century, few laymen in times past availed themselves of it – although the clergy have been well-trained in Scripture since Trent.

Your generation suffered disastrously at the hands of well-intentioned innovators in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. Many of the “reforms” have been corrected, and the Church is now back on a much more even keel . . . You might want to sniff it out from a less strident perspective.

The best Bible study I have ever seen is Catholic (Jeff Cafins) – and there is one major Protestant Bible study that is now marketing a study that, if not directly stolen from Cavins’ Time Line, certainly mimics it.

 

[codebilly]

I’m not worried about the old Italian ladies in my neighjborhood. They were strong Catholics. I’m worried about the people I know now and their families who got sucked into a cult by a slick talking Watchtower representative who is trained to specifically target Catholics because they know these people don’t know the bible. I hardly ever here of a Protestant falling for that nonsense. A Protestant will say. “Let’s see what my bible says.”

Fair enough.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t blame myself for that. Most of it happened before I was born because all those devout Catholics who sat in mass every week and heard those readings unexplained in a 3 year cycle never knew “the word was ‘a’ god” is an incorrect translation.

If it’s any comfort to you, many JWs are former Protestants who had the same deficit in their learning. The main line churches are awash in the same widespread ignorance that we are.

FWIW, I teach 6th grade CCD. The whole year is BIBLE. The entire OT plus Acts. Seventh grade is NT.

 

[mercygate]

That’s OK but let’s not get sidetracked. Is this what Jesus had in mind when He trusted Peter with the keys to the kingdom?

You are referring to the precepts and disciplines of the Church. They fall under the Church’s pastoral mandate to guide people in living a life that will be consistent with the Gospel. They are not obstacles but more like railroad tracks.

 

[mercygate]

Hey … good thing that Ron77nyc points that out … now when all those old ladies line up to take God’s quiz on that, they have a chance to get in.

Maybe you’ll be in charge of giving the bible quiz entrance exam when you get to heaven.

Maybe God will have you send the old Italian ladies in your neighborhood to hell.

Because, offering a lifetime of simple prayers or grandmother’s devotion counts for nothing … God wants to test your bible knowledge.

We don’t need to demean Ron77nyc’s concerns. His observations are neither unique nor are they entirely without foundation.

 

[ron77nyc]

It is pointless to say that the Catholic Church “always” had Scripture studies. It has not.

While there has been an indulgence for reading Scripture since the mid-19th Century, few laymen in times past availed themselves of it – although the clergy have been well-trained in Scripture since Trent.

Your generation suffered disastrously at the hands of well-intentioned innovators in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. Many of the “reforms” have been corrected, and the Church is now back on a much more even keel . . . You might want to sniff it out from a less strident perspective.

The best Bible study I have ever seen is Catholic (Jeff Cafins) – and there is one major Protestant Bible study that is now marketing a study that, if not directly stolen from Cavins’ Time Line, certainly mimics it.

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it.

 

[mercygate]

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it.

I’ve always had a soft spot for you.

As a convert, I stayed OUT of the Catholic Church for decades because the well-intentioned reforms of Vatican 2 were being implemented with such wanton disregard for their true intent. Things are better now; and the young priests coming up are much more stable than the gentlemen of my generation, who are still out there strumming on their guitars.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What?? St Paul certainly understood and believed in the real presence… 1 Corinthians
“The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?” If thats not communion then the Pope ain’t Catholic!

Here is the problem. I would be curious as to what translation you are using but here is the “New International Version”:

16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

1 Corinthians 10:16-17

That sounds more general, less transsubstantial.

You can flip through various translations here:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2010:16-17;&version=46;

As with other citations given in this thread, the distinction is subtle and depends on the meaning of the original Greek.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Catholocism is not a religion “invented” by men. Catholocism is an invented word meaning universality. This word is recorded as used by St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 107 AD in a letter to the Smrynaens. The word Catholic represented the need to identify the true Teachings of Christ and the true Church. There were many heretical teachings during this time, as there are today, and the Church “Fathers” needed to be able to identify the one true church established by Christ. This Teaching of Christ is universal and passed on from the Apostles. Christians are “catholic” because they have made a covenant with God to beleive all that Jesus taught us. A Christian is Catholic (unified) in Christ’s Body because they follow all of the truth of Christ’s Teaching.

The question is when, for example, did particular beliefs and practices come about. It is easy enough to identify new beliefs and practices in Catholicism. For example, unil Vatican II mass was conducted in Latin with the priest turning his back to the congregation. After Vatican II the Church instituted new practices. Similarly, belief in the Immaculate Conception was not a (general) belief in the early Church.

Protestants cut themselves off from most the post Acts innovations of the Catholic Church through sola scriptura. What distinguishes Protestans from Catholics are (primarily) the post Acts innovations.