The Invention of Catholicism?

[Stephen168]

Their immediate successors did; the Catacombs are full of prayers both for and to the dead. And the Jews of that time had the custom (as some sects still do today) of praying for one year for the souls of the dead, that they might be purified so as to enter into Paradise.

You will no doubt remember that there were many Jews who sat by the Twin Towers for a period of eleven months after 9/11, praying for those who had died there.

And there is:
Hebrew 12:14
Revelation 21:27
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
1 Peter 3:18-20
1 Peter 4:6

 

[1beleevr]

After much thought, and a fair amount of reading, I have come to the conclusion that Christianity is not a religion! Actually, I came to this realization some time ago, but after two weeks as a member of this forum, I am reminded of this fact! Christianity is a personal relationship with God through Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ! Religion, conversely, is man’s attempt to get back to God, which I believe started in the Garden of Eden, when after they realized they were both physically and spiritually naked, Adam and Eve sought to re-connect with their Creator! While religion has its roots in the law, and has a tendency to promote legalism, Christianity is grounded in grace and love! I love reading how Paul, a former Pharisee(one of the strictest Jewish religions) extols the freedom he enjoys because of Jesus! He reminds us of our vulnerability, and constantly points out that the law cannot save us. So should we shelf the law? No, in fact we have a better understanding of the law, because of grace and love! The law doesn’t show us how good we are, rather how bad we are! The law, in fact leads us to Jesus(fulfilled rather than abolished), just like the woman accused of adultery in John 8.

 

[1beleevr]

Since purgatory is an invented word, it would seem that belief or non-belief in such a concept would be a matter of interpretation of scripture! Thank God for free will and discernment! I choose not to believe in it!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Since purgatory is an invented word, it would seem that belief or non-belief in such a concept would be a matter of interpretation of scripture! Thank God for free will and discernment! I choose not to believe in it!

Fortunately for you, it’s existence or nonexistence is not dependent upon your choice of belief.

 

[greggy53]

You presume that it is a question of authority and not a question of truth.

That’s nothing. Protestants have been known to toss out whole books that confict with their theology. (Of course, Catholics complain when they use the Catholic canon in the first place. Who says Catholics can’t have it both ways.)

So the question is not whether people allow their theology to color their translations and interpretations but whether Catholics are immune from this human tendency.

When the truth concerning the correct interpretation of a scripture is at hand we rely on the Church to show us the truth. Which leads us to your last statement. We humans are full of error, but when the Church speaks Infallibly on these matters we can say with absolutley certainty what the correct intrepetation of any scripture is.

 

[PJM]

Since purgatory is an invented word, it would seem that belief or non-belief in such a concept would be a matter of interpretation of scripture! Thank God for free will and discernment! I choose not to believe in it!

Dear freind in Christ,

A question…

Can you see the air you breath? And yet it is their:thumbsup:

Because one choses to believe or not believe does nothing to change the truth.

“What word” has not been invented:shrug:

Purgatory (call it what you like) is a manifestitation of God’s continueing Love and Mercy, and God’s desire to have a persoanl relationship with us.

Futher, it is an element of Hid Divene Justice

 

[mercygate]

Since purgatory is an invented word, it would seem that belief or non-belief in such a concept would be a matter of interpretation of scripture! Thank God for free will and discernment! I choose not to believe in it!

By that logic, you need to ditch the Trinity as well.

 

[jlhargus]

Since purgatory is an invented word, it would seem that belief or non-belief in such a concept would be a matter of interpretation of scripture! Thank God for free will and discernment! I choose not to believe in it!

JL: Trinity is an invented word also. Do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[ron77nyc]

When the truth concerning the correct interpretation of a scripture is at hand we rely on the Church to show us the truth. Which leads us to your last statement. We humans are full of error, but when the Church speaks Infallibly on these matters we can say with absolutley certainty what the correct intrepetation of any scripture is.

We humans are full of error is the truth and the church is made up of humans so we can surely say that the church is always right except when wrong. For centuries it was infallibly declared that you had to accept the authority of Jesus and the pope to be saved. This is no longer held to so rigidly so now we have sedavacantism. Traditional Catholics who think the pope is a heretic.

 

[greggy53]

We humans are full of error is the truth and the church is made up of humans so we can surely say that the church is always right except when wrong. For centuries it was infallibly declared that you had to accept the authority of Jesus and the pope to be saved. This is no longer held to so rigidly so now we have sedavacantism. Traditional Catholics who think the pope is a heretic.

I had to google “sedavacantism” I never heard of it before. I suppose there are a handful of nut jobs out in LA that still believe the earth is flat too…The Church is right when it speaks infallibly. Period. You either accept that or you don’t. Jesus gave St Peter, and the apostles the power to bind in Heaven and on earth. You either take Jesus at his word, or you do the old Protestant two step and dance around it.

 

[mercygate]

We humans are full of error is the truth and the church is made up of humans so we can surely say that the church is always right except when wrong. For centuries it was infallibly declared that you had to accept the authority of Jesus and the pope to be saved. This is no longer held to so rigidly so now we have sedavacantism. Traditional Catholics who think the pope is a heretic.

The Church still believes that if you understand Who the Church is and still reject her, then you cannot be saved. The Church teaches that it is through the Church that anyone is saved, even if they do not explicitly understand that. So there’s still “no salvation outside the Church.”

 

[ron77nyc]

The Church still believes that if you understand Who the Church is and still reject her, then you cannot be saved. The Church teaches that it is through the Church that anyone is saved, even if they do not explicitly understand that. So there’s still “no salvation outside the Church.”

Pope Eugene IV is not saying the same thing as Pope Benedict and the catechism.

This is what the catechism says:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Pope Eugene IV ( A.D. 1441 ) " The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart " into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" ( Matt. 25:21), unless before the end of life the same has been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fasting’s, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
" Cantata Domino" Council of Florence

Pope Benedict XVI “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”

 

[ron77nyc]

The Church is right when it speaks infallibly. Period. You either accept that or you don’t.

It’s not easy to accept when their is evidence that some popes contradict other popes.

 

[greggy53]

It’s not easy to accept when their is evidence that some popes contradict other popes.

Well I’m sure you could find much more considering the long history of the papacy. I was looking for the quote from Benedict, and wondering if he was speaking infallibly at the time. I don’t believe the Church has made that a doctrine…I doubt that, considering the how recent the remarks were made. That would be an important distinction

 

[ron77nyc]

Well I’m sure you could find much more considering the long history of the papacy. I was looking for the quote from Benedict, and wondering if he was speaking infallibly at the time. I don’t believe the Church has made that a doctrine…I doubt that, considering the how recent the remarks were made. That would be an important distinction

Of course Benedict, John Paul or any other pope cannot infallibly declare a statement that contradicts what has already been declared but he and the catechism are teaching something that is contrary to the Council of Florence.

 

[greggy53]

Pope Eugene IV is not saying the same thing as Pope Benedict and the catechism.

This is what the catechism says:
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Pope Eugene IV ( A.D. 1441 ) " The most Holy Roman Church believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatic’s cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart " into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" ( Matt. 25:21), unless before the end of life the same has been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fasting’s, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
" Cantata Domino" Council of Florence

Pope Benedict XVI “Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith.”

Some observations about your quotes: The catechism is speaking of the Baptism of desire. One who accepts Christ and for whatever reason has not had the opportunity for baptism. This person would be brought into the Church. The thief on the cross is a good example. The 15th century Pope methinks is speaking directly to heretics, and the like, and calling for their repentance. I would have to read the whole document in order to determine if you haven’t taken what he said out of context. Pope Benedict here is reflecting on something that St Augustine wrote concerning virtuous pagans. Along the lines of what happens to those who lead virtuous lives without ever having heard the good news?

 

[mercygate]

Some observations about your quotes: The catechism is speaking of the Baptism of desire. One who accepts Christ and for whatever reason has not had the opportunity for baptism. This person would be brought into the Church. The thief on the cross is a good example. The 15th century Pope methinks is speaking directly to heretics, and the like, and calling for their repentance. I would have to read the whole document in order to determine if you haven’t taken what he said out of context. Pope Benedict here is reflecting on something that St Augustine wrote concerning virtuous pagans. Along the lines of what happens to those who lead virtuous lives without ever having heard the good news?

The context of the quotation cited from the Council of Florence – is entirely under the title of denouncing heresy and schism.

“. . . all those who are [in this context meaning "who have placed themselves] outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it “abide” = “remain”] do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”

This is consistent with what the Church believes today. If you’re in the Church, then reject her by acts of heresy or schism, or if you fail to persevere in the Church – even should you become a martyr for Christ – you have placed yourself in peril.

Context, context, context.

 

[ron77nyc]

The context of the quotation cited from the Council of Florence – is entirely under the title of denouncing heresy and schism.

“. . . all those who are [in this context meaning "who have placed themselves] outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it “abide” = “remain”] do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”

This is consistent with what the Church believes today. If you’re in the Church, then reject her by acts of heresy or schism, or if you fail to persevere in the Church – even should you become a martyr for Christ – you have placed yourself in peril.

Context, context, context.

Why would pagans and Jews have to place themselves outside the Catholic Church. They were born that way?

 

[mercygate]

Why would pagans and Jews have to place themselves outside the Catholic Church. They were born that way?

Excellent question; in the context of that passage, I believe it points to pagans and Jews IN THE SOCIETY where they would have the opportunity to reject Christ. The possibility of salvation for these people, in today’s language, would come under the heading of “invincible ignorance.”

 

[ron77nyc]

Excellent question; in the context of that passage, I believe it points to pagans and Jews IN THE SOCIETY where they would have the opportunity to reject Christ. The possibility of salvation for these people, in today’s language, would come under the heading of “invincible ignorance.”

Excellent answer.