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ron77nyc
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look3467
Guest
Friends,
Debate the infallibility of the Catholic Church all you want, the message is still the same, Jesus saves.
Now, a picture of all that has transpired from Adam to Jesus will give us a true picture of what is.
From Adam to Moses, the law and a structured procedural method of worshiping God was instituted by God through Moses via the Levitical Priest hood and the temple of worship.
Why was it so, can you guess?
Could it be in preparation for Jesus to fulfill all the requirements for the salvation of mankind?
Yes! Degree had to be added to sin so that only God in Jesus could be the sola savior of mankind and nothing of mankind’s contribution.
After Jesus had accomplished the redemption process, collective salvation as in God saving Israel from the Egyptians,was changed to individual salvation, as God now can inhabit the hearts individually.
Hence, the temple of God in no longer made with human hands as the Jews still believe it should, but is made with Gods hands in the hearts of each one of us.
Jesus finds rest for His head (Kingdom) in our hearts.
Jesus said: Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Does Jesus have a pillow in your heart?
Peace>>>AJ
Debate the infallibility of the Catholic Church all you want, the message is still the same, Jesus saves.
Now, a picture of all that has transpired from Adam to Jesus will give us a true picture of what is.
From Adam to Moses, the law and a structured procedural method of worshiping God was instituted by God through Moses via the Levitical Priest hood and the temple of worship.
Why was it so, can you guess?
Could it be in preparation for Jesus to fulfill all the requirements for the salvation of mankind?
Yes! Degree had to be added to sin so that only God in Jesus could be the sola savior of mankind and nothing of mankind’s contribution.
After Jesus had accomplished the redemption process, collective salvation as in God saving Israel from the Egyptians,was changed to individual salvation, as God now can inhabit the hearts individually.
Hence, the temple of God in no longer made with human hands as the Jews still believe it should, but is made with Gods hands in the hearts of each one of us.
Jesus finds rest for His head (Kingdom) in our hearts.
Jesus said: Mat 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Does Jesus have a pillow in your heart?
Peace>>>AJ
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elvisman
Guest
Better yet, reach for a Bible and a Catechism - learn more about your faith.
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ron77nyc
Guest
This is what I mean about man made doctrine. Does anybody have confidence in Jesus’ ability to save?
John5:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
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jmcrae
Guest
The entire system is based upon the assumption (faith) that Jesus forgives us of our sins.
This is the essence of the Sacraments - it’s why they work.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Everyone does not go to purgatory, only those in need of purification. I do not doubt St Paul went directly to heaven, after judgment. 2Cr 5:9 …whether we are at home or away we make it our aim to please him 10 …we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body. Absence from the body does not mean our presence with the Lord in heaven is immediate or automatic as judgment is the first thing to come after death and those who have some dead works will go to purgatory, those who have no good works at all will go to hell, their faith is dead.
The soul of the departed goes immediately for personal judgment, Hb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once and after that comes judgment. I have no doubt when Paul died or any person, who has in life continued to grow and be purified of faults and attained holiness of life, enters into God’s rest immediately, after their personal judgment. Baptism forgives all sin and debt due and renders a soul ready to enter into eternal rest immediately after personal judgment. Most people do not maintain that purity, through careless words or other faults, such as being impatience or uncharitable.
Those who have some works judged imperfect, hay or straw, though they are saved, will pass through God’s judgment of fire. HEB 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire. 1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it…it shall be revealed by fire 15 If any man’s work shall be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be saved yet so as by fire. Spiritually painful, they will suffer loss, pay back ever penny, as our Lord tells us. That would be for sins forgiven after baptism, where restitution has not been fully done, or for careless words and faults Mt 12:36 I tell you on the day of judgment men will render account **for every careless word they **utter 37 for by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. Jms 3:2 For **WE ALL MAKE MANY MISTAKES and if any one makes NO MISTAKES **in what he says **HE IS A PERFECT MAN **able to bridle the whole body also. 8 but no human being can tame the tongue a restless evil full of deadly poison 9 With it we bless the Lord and Father and with it we curse men who are made in the likeness of God MT 5:22 But I say… whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment and whoever shall insult his brother shall be in danger of the council but whoever shall say you fool shall be in danger of hell fire… 24…first be reconciled to your brother… 25 Agree with your adversary quickly **while you are in the way **with him lest at any time the adversary deliver you to the judge… and you are **cast into PRISON **26 …I say to you You shall by no means come out…till you have paid the last penny. God judges what debt is due. MT 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a certain king which would take account of his servants…32 Then his lord after he called him said to him you wicked servant I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellowservant as I had pity on you? 34 his lord was wroth and delivered him to the tormentors till he pay all that was due him 35 **SO LIKEWISE shall my heavenly Father do also to you **if you **FROM YOUR HEARTS *forgive not his brother their trespasses. * Not forgiving all from the heart as Christ forgave all. Likewise our Father will do to you, till you pay all due. Where will he send them? not heaven as heaven is not a prison and no one wants to leave heaven, to hell? no because no one ever gets out of hell. So there must be another temporary place, we call it purgatory, the scripture calls it prison.
LK 12:37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes …40 Be ready…45 But if that servant say in his heart My lord delays his coming and begin to beat the servants to eat and drink to be drunk 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for him and cut him in sunder and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers 47 And that servant which knew his lord’s will did not prepare himself nor did according to his will shall be beaten with many stripes 48 But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes For to whom much is given much is required. * First the servant who stays awake goes to heaven, second servant beats the others and goes to hell, third servant who knew better, but was spiritually lazy, receives more stripes in purgatory than the fourth . The fourth servant will receive less stripes as he did not have full knowledge or understanding of his actions*
Continued:
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jlhargus
Guest
Hb12: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; BUT HE FOR OUR PROFIT, that we might be PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS.
Our Lord chastises us here on earth so we will not need to be chastised after death. Unfortunately, just as a child, most of us correct our faults for awhile but soon forget. That’s why purgatory is a great mercy.
Our Lord chastises us here on earth so we will not need to be chastised after death. Unfortunately, just as a child, most of us correct our faults for awhile but soon forget. That’s why purgatory is a great mercy.
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NDfan
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I’m not speaking of the Apostles Jmcrae. I’m speaking of the Jews that attended Pentecost and were baptized into Christ that day. They left and started churches on their own without Apostolic oversight the church in Rome being one of them.
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NDfan
Guest
Perhaps we need a thread to discuss purgatory. Not if it exists. But to teach clearly what the church teaches it is and is not.
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elvisman
Guest
My mistake. I mean unconfessed venial sin.
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Bubba_Switzler
Guest
I think it does exemplify (though not prove) my claim regarding the invention of Catholicism. The fact that this is not claimed as a dogmatic truth is a noteworthy distinction but not a dispositive one. One need only witness the heated arguments that arise at the suggestion of allowing married priests to see how dearly this is held.
Now you might claim that everything that the Catholic Church has invented post Acts has been matters of discipline and not dogma but I think we’ve already discussed other examples (e.g. the dogma of the Holy Trinity, Transubstantiation, etc.) that contradict that.
However, priestly celibacy is an important matter in another respect, In Part 2 I argued that it was the destruction of the Jewish Temple and the Jewish priesthood that catalyzed Christian theology with respect to the priesthood.
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jmcrae
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No, the Jews who “attended Pentecost” (were present at the events of Pentecost) didn’t go out straight away and establish Churches without Apostolic oversight.
First, they were trained and catechized. They lived communally with the Apostles, sharing all that they had with one another.
Then, some of them were ordained as Deacons to serve the poor, when it became too much for the Apostles to do this.
Later, the Apostles were scattered, and established Churches and set up Bishops in various places, and some of these were the places that St. Paul was writing to after 60 AD (keep in mind that nothing was written before that time - the first word of the New Testament was the opening line of St. Paul to the Thessalonians, in 63 AD, when he began to be imprisoned).
The reason St. Paul kept emphasizing his Apostolic connections was because at that time, Apostolic authority was extremely important. Given that they wouldn’t listen to Paul or read his letters unless they were sure he had Apostolic authority, it doesn’t make sense that they would allow someone to set up a church and preach there every Sunday, without also having Apostolic authority.
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ron77nyc
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That’s just the point. We are not saved by a system. Jesus didn’t intend for people to develop a system of salvation. The sacraments only work if we believe in the resurrection of Jesus. If we don’t (as some Catholic and Protestants. No one can come unless the Father draws him) then we are following a system of rules to earn salvation. If we believe in Him we can know He will bring us to eternal life. He will not abandon us for sinning and if we sin we have an Advocate. We don’t have to worry about committing a sin and dying before we get to confession. It’s not a football game. It’s a God who knows us intimately. It seems as though they are still teaching that we lose our salvation every time we sin.The entire system is based upon the assumption (faith) that Jesus forgives us of our sins.
This is the essence of the Sacraments - it’s why they work.
It is God’s plan of salvation not God’s system of salvation.
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mercygate
Guest
Oh dear. You truly were left in a catechetical hole by your teachers. Unfortunately, I believe many Catholics think that you’ll go to hell if you “die before you get to confession.” I don’t think many Catholics believe the Sacraments confer grace if you do not believe in Christ.
As for “knowing” we are saved: yes – we “know” it. Scripture tells us we now know that salvation comes through faith. But the Greek word for “know” means something like “hopeful assurance” or “confidence.” It does not mean absolute, certain, infallible, personal knowledge that I have received the grace of final perseverance. It allows for the virtue of Hope.
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ron77nyc
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The only sinless ones were Jesus and Mary. We have no way of knowing who will be purged and who won’t be purged in the next life. It’s beyond our comprehension and it’s foolish for us to speculate about it. That’s probably why Jesus didn’t talk about it.
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ron77nyc
Guest
I’m not in that hole alone. I think one of the above said he or she is a catechist.
In the system of salvation you don’t need faith. You just have to keep going to mass and confession and then when you die you will go to purgatory to pay for your sins. I’m not trying to be amusing. That’s how it was taught.
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mangy_dog
Guest
Wrong again,
You are just a link in a long line of erroneous comments.
The term katolikos was fist used by Ignatius of Antioch. Only because he saw how and what the church instituted by Christ Himself had become…Universal. And not only become - but had been since the beginning - because Jesus is God and He alone gave the authority to Peter, the first pope of the catholic church.
Ignatius of Antioch replaced Cyril who was Bishop before him. St. Peter was the one who consecrated Ignatius after the death of Cyril - and Cyril was the first to coin the term “christians” referring to the followers of Jesus Christ.
NO my friend,…it was way before the time you indicate and alledge in your blog.
Not you, not anyone will prevail against the one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first pope…264 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI. And the gate of hell will not prevail against it. And definitely not you.
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ron77nyc
Guest
Are the 7 churches in the book of revelation all under the authority of one pope?
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johnnydigit
Guest
i’ve thought about that one. it is similar to the eastern orthodox. afaik, they do not have one authority. they have the patriarchs, all governing their own area, as is described in Acts. so really, it seems to me the Orthodox are what protestants should be. anyways, even this organization does not seem to be the most ideal.
all logic and faith tells me there needs to be an authority in order to be fully united as one, and with Peter and all the Old and New Testament scripture and Jewish tradition that supports his authority (esp. Matt 16:18), the Catholic hierarchy is the only one that fits Jesus’ plan.
as to not having specific mention at the time, i believe the structure has evolved and solidified since then. in the beginning there were problems, and even at the end of Acts the churches still had problems, which were the very target of Paul’s letters. so whether Paul specifically knew it or wrote it, the only natural outcome after Acts would have become, “the authority of one, holy, apostolic, and Catholic Church is the only way we can deal with this,” and fortunately that’s what the earliest Christians (Apostolic and Church Fathers) were compelled to write.
if Paul didn’t write it in the letters or Gospels, would you believe it if he preached it orally or wrote it somewhere else that didn’t make it into the Bible? what if one of the other Apostles wrote it, would you believe it? what if the close disciples of the Apostles wrote it, would you believe it? well they did - St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Polycarp - both close disciples of St. John the Apostle. i think St. Ignatius was made bishop by the laying of hands of St. Peter himself, after Peter was the bishop there for two years, then moving to Rome.
the other churches may or may not have officially declared their submission to Peter at the time but it would still be the only inevitable recourse once things started to grow really out of hand.
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