The Invention of Catholicism?

[elvisman]

I’m not in that hole alone. I think one of the above said he or she is a catechist.

In the system of salvation you don’t need faith. You just have to keep going to mass and confession and then when you die you will go to purgatory to pay for your sins. I’m not trying to be amusing. That’s how it was taught.

**So, because I mis-typed what I was tring to say, you think that I’m in the same hole as you? **I think not. You are very confused about the beliefs of the Catholic church.

jmcrae simply called me out and when I looked at what I typed, I realized it was misworded. He was right to point that out to me.

You think that you go to purgatory to pay for your sins? Jesus already paid for our sins. We receive temporal punishment - much like a father who forgives his son for joyriding with his friends. Even though he forgives him, he still grounds him. That’s fatherly love.

Purgatory is a state of purgation - of cleansing before we can enter Heaven, because, as I already pointed out - “nothing unclean can enter Heaven” (Revelation 21:27).

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The Catholic Church is the church Christ started but the early church was not Roman Catholic. They had no Roman Catholic doctrine. Nothing about purgatory, communion of saints, eucharist or the trinity

The concepts were there from the beginning and are supportable from Tradition, early writings and scripture.

ron77nyc:

They were believers in the resurrected Christ.That’s all you had to confess to get baptised and that’s all you had to confess to be a candidate for persecution. It is still a requirement today for those who have been chosen by God to be His own.

That’s not the issue. The issue is what doctrines the Church taught to those who professed that belief in Christ. The early Church was Catholic. History shows that it was.

ron77nyc:

There will never be 100% doctrinal agreement. The Pope now agrees with Luther on salvation by faith alone.

I agree that there has never been 100% doctrinal agreement. That does not prove the Catholic Church false. Rather, it supports the argument that Jesus Christ intended to create not just a bible, but a Church to protect and teach what He revealed. The Pope did not agree with the protestant position on salvation. But there have been efforts to reconcile Lutheran and Catholic doctrine on the issue. The Catholic teaching has remained consistent in rejecting the notion that works play no role in salvation.

Peace,
Robert

 

[jmcrae]

Are the 7 churches in the book of revelation all under the authority of one pope?

Well, they were certainly under the authority of one Apostle, or else Jesus would not have bothered to ask St. John to compose those seven letters, and deliver them to those seven churches. Instead, He would have appeared to the leaders of those seven congregations and told them in person - or better yet, under the “me and Jesus” system, He wouldn’t have bothered with letters at all - He would have appeared to each and every individual member of those congregations, and disciplined each of them in person.

But Jesus didn’t do that - Jesus respects the chain of command that He has set in place, so He speaks to St. John, and gets St. John to discipline all seven of those churches, by means of letters delivered to each of them. Jesus expects each of those congregations to have respect for St. John’s apostolic authority, and to do as he tells them to do, without questioning whether he has the right to tell them what to do.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not in that hole alone. I think one of the above said he or she is a catechist.

In the system of salvation you don’t need faith. You just have to keep going to mass and confession and then when you die you will go to purgatory to pay for your sins. I’m not trying to be amusing. That’s how it was taught.

And how would you go to Mass and go to Confession, without faith in Jesus Christ? I think it is physically impossible for someone who has no faith to maintain that kind of personal discipline.

 

[dawid]

Well, since Protestants don’t seem to be up to defending their faith here, let me give it a try.

RESOLVED: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans.

Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity.

Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

Your heading “Resolved” implies that somebody is satisfied with that statement - it would be prudent to state who holds this belief, what its justification is and the source of that authority.

 

[ron77nyc]

So, because I mis-typed what I was tring to say, you think that I’m in the same hole as you? I think not. You are very confused about the beliefs of the Catholic church.

So you mistyped something; that’s no big deal. I think you are knowledgeable and sincere and a true Christian but you’re judging me and you don’t really know me. I went through the system and it failed me so I went to the bible and it made sense so I’m staying with the bible.

You think that you go to purgatory to pay for your sins? Jesus already paid for our sins. We receive temporal punishment - much like a father who forgives his son for joyriding with his friends. Even though he forgives him, he still grounds him. That’s fatherly love.

I don’t think you go to purgatory to pay for sins. I’m just stating what was taught and what many Catholics still believe.

 

[ron77nyc]

And how would you go to Mass and go to Confession, without faith in Jesus Christ? I think it is physically impossible for someone who has no faith to maintain that kind of personal discipline.

Many people I know are part of the “system” without believing that Jesus rose from the dead. They have some belief in God but are not convinced about Jesus. They do it because it’s a nice tradition or because their wives want them to do it. It’s a place to get married and have a “christening” as some call it. As one co-worker told me: “It’s a classy thing to do.”

 

[mercygate]

I’m not in that hole alone. I think one of the above said he or she is a catechist.

In the system of salvation you don’t need faith. You just have to keep going to mass and confession and then when you die you will go to purgatory to pay for your sins. I’m not trying to be amusing. That’s how it was taught.

Looking at this in a rational light, I would suggest that faith would be preseumed to develop through exposure to the sacraments. A confession, for example, would not be valid without faith. You’re in a better position to exercise good judgment now. You kind of owe it to yourself at least to re-visit some of what you were taught in light of what the Church actually teaches. Whether or not you return to the Church (and I don’t see that happening any time soon) you are much too intelligent and responsible to let this stand as it was for you when you were a teenager.

 

[mercygate]

Many people I know are part of the “system” without believing that Jesus rose from the dead. They have some belief in God but are not convinced about Jesus. They do it because it’s a nice tradition or because their wives want them to do it. It’s a place to get married and have a “christening” as some call it. As one co-worker told me: “It’s a classy thing to do.”

So what? How does that affect your personal conviction, your belief in and love for Jesus Christ. I know a Baptist who believes that when babies die they become angels. By your logic that would mean all Baptists are ignorant sentimentalists.

 

[ron77nyc]

Well, they were certainly under the authority of one Apostle, or else Jesus would not have bothered to ask St. John to compose those seven letters, and deliver them to those seven churches. Instead, He would have appeared to the leaders of those seven congregations and told them in person - or better yet, under the “me and Jesus” system, He wouldn’t have bothered with letters at all - He would have appeared to each and every individual member of those congregations, and disciplined each of them in person.

But Jesus didn’t do that - Jesus respects the chain of command that He has set in place, so He speaks to St. John, and gets St. John to discipline all seven of those churches, by means of letters delivered to each of them. Jesus expects each of those congregations to have respect for St. John’s apostolic authority, and to do as he tells them to do, without questioning whether he has the right to tell them what to do.

Who was the one pope or bishop of all these churches? Was it John?

 

[mercygate]

Who was the one pope or bishop of all these churches? Was it John?

The seven churches of Revelation were in communion with one another (and with all the Churches); They were not “more” autocephalous than they would be today, if they still existed.

The consoldidation of the Roman papacy became more defined over time as a result of pressures both from within and from outside of the Church. People make it out to be some demonic Roman plot. The clarification of the position of the Petrine See shared a history of development similar to other definitions that emerged with greater clarity as the Church faced challenges. The doctrine of the Trinity is not “wrong” because it was not articulated before 325 A.D. Petrine centrality is not “wrong” because it emerged gradually beginning with Clement and moving toward Victor, through Gregory . . .

 

[ron77nyc]

Looking at this in a rational light, I would suggest that faith would be preseumed to develop through exposure to the sacraments. A confession, for example, would not be valid without faith. You’re in a better position to exercise good judgment now. You kind of owe it to yourself at least to re-visit some of what you were taught in light of what the Church actually teaches. Whether or not you return to the Church (and I don’t see that happening any time soon) you are much too intelligent and responsible to let this stand as it was for you when you were a teenager.

I’ve returned to the Church many times since I was a teenager. I never left. My local parish has excellent priests. I just don’t believe that Jesus ever wanted his followers to “teach the system.” He wants them to preach the gospel. The truth of the gospel gets buried under the system but it’s always there and at times muffled out and hard to distinguish.

 

[mercygate]

I’ve returned to the Church many times since I was a teenager. I never left. My local parish has excellent priests. I just don’t believe that Jesus ever wanted his followers to “teach the system.” He wants them to preach the gospel. The truth of the gospel gets buried under the system but it’s always there and at times muffled out and hard to distinguish.

You sound like a man who could make a big difference.

Do you teach CCD? Participate/lead men’s spirituality groups? I find that men (of all traditions) are hungry for the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit in thier lives. We have a couple of young (under 45) guys in our parish who are AMAZING. Cornerstone weekends are also a great way to foster a sense of gospel commitment.

 

[elvisman]

So you mistyped something; that’s no big deal. I think you are knowledgeable and sincere and a true Christian but you’re judging me and you don’t really know me. I went through the system and it failed me so I went to the bible and it made sense so I’m staying with the bible.

That’s just it. IF you appealed to the Bible, you’d have no alternative but to stay Catholic.

The problem with some people who read Scripture without knowledge of the Church is that they have their own interpretation of Scripture. They reject the authority of the Church and wind up breaking off into their own set of renegade beliefs.
This is the tragedy of Protestantism.

I don’t think you go to purgatory to pay for sins. I’m just stating what was taught and what many Catholics still believe.

It’s too bad that you had poor catechesis when you were younger.
However, as an adult, you can no longer blame the bad teaching you had as a youngster. You can study the Catechism for yourself and see that it is in concert with the Scriptures.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Your heading “Resolved” implies that somebody is satisfied with that statement - it would be prudent to state who holds this belief, what its justification is and the source of that authority.

It’s a tentative theory to be explored in the spirit of intellectual pursuit. It does not imply that anyone is satisfied with it, only that in this thread I have argued for it. (And I have given my reasons throughout.)

 

[1beleevr]

Wow, it seems like just yesterday, I joined this forum and it has been two weeks already! I have enjoyed ineracting with everybody, and have felt feelings of excitement, dismay, boredom, joy and confusion! It’s kinda like when a group of kids come to a playground; and one or more kids try to establish the playground as their territory, and the other kids are asking, " why can’t we all just enjoy this place, put our differences aside and try to love one another, as Jesus loves the church(the body of believers)! That is the one emotion I have not seen or felt mush of in this forum:love. Even though Jesus, Himself, tells us in Matthew 22:39, and John 13:34-35, that the second greatest commandment, is to love others as we love ourselves!!! It’s not about calling someone bitter, deluded or confused if they don’t agree with your position; it’s about accepting them as they are, and showing them the respect and love that Christ meant for us to share. As a follower of Christ(no religion or denomination) I strive to avoid judging others, although I do occasionally slip and judge them! I then confess my sins directly to Him(1John 1:9), and He acts as my Advocate to God the Holy Father!Matthew 15:26:thumbsup:

 

[jmcrae]

Who was the one pope or bishop of all these churches? Was it John?

No; it was Clement. But John was the local authority for them, and, since all of the churches involved were in his territorial jurisdiction, he was the one responsible for them, just as a local Bishop is responsible for all of the parishes in his Diocese, and doesn’t have to ask the Pope’s permission to discipline them, when it’s necessary.

 

[Lapell]

Many people I know are part of the “system” without believing that Jesus rose from the dead. They have some belief in God but are not convinced about Jesus. They do it because it’s a nice tradition or because their wives want them to do it. It’s a place to get married and have a “christening” as some call it. As one co-worker told me: “It’s a classy thing to do.”

And well, they are validly baptized, I guess, except that they won’t get as much from it as they would if they would be committed to live their lives as good Christians, with (and because of) the knowledge about Jesus as their Lord, their Saviour and their…God! If they knew more and better about our faith, it would be many times better. They just have no idea, in being so superficial about it, how good it really is to live in Jesus the Christ. They might not be truly ready to…

 

[Lapell]

And all the Commandments are about loving God and loving others as we love ourselves, or even better, loving them the way Jesus has loved (and still loves) us…

 

[jmcrae]

Wow, it seems like just yesterday, I joined this forum and it has been two weeks already! I have enjoyed ineracting with everybody, and have felt feelings of excitement, dismay, boredom, joy and confusion! It’s kinda like when a group of kids come to a playground; and one or more kids try to establish the playground as their territory, and the other kids are asking, " why can’t we all just enjoy this place, put our differences aside and try to love one another, as Jesus loves the church(the body of believers)!

It’s a debating forum.

Welcome aboard!