The Invention of Catholicism?

[look3467]

I was raised in a Southern Baptist home in the 50’s and 60’s! And while I don’t espouse that denomination today, I do retain many of the lessons that I learned during my years there! I learned about respecting authority, discipline in reading the Bible, respect and love for others, regardless of their race, color, origin, etc. On May 15, 1967, I publicly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour! Baptized a year later, I began this incredible journey, with Jesus which gets better all the time. And while I have been faithless at times, He has remained faithful! And while was unaware of other"religions" until my late teens and early twenties, I maintained my respect for others, instilled in me by my mother, an incredible daughter of God; who I consider my spiritual mentor. She did then, and continues to reflect Christ in her dealings with others! And while she taught me tolerance and acceptance, she also showed me how grace and mercy work hand in hand, and that having faith in Christ, will inspire one to do good works! She also taught me that hate is a very negative and hurtful thing, like it says in 1John 4:20 " For if we say we love God, but we hate a Christian brother or sister, we are liars, for if we can’t love people we can see, how can we love God whom we can’t see. Bottom line is, who cares where you go to church, or how you take communion(don’t you guys use wafers and wine?)

Our paths are similar and one which has given me and understanding of how God sees all religious organizations in light of His love.

That came about only by my insistence in getting answers to my questions.
I am not satisfied for God has given answers to them.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[johnnydigit]

And when you speak about hierarchy(fathers, bishops, etc.), do you interpret Matthew 23:9 the same way I do? You know, when Jesus said"Call no man on this earth Father(upper case). We all have fathers here on earth, but we only have one Holy Father, and He is not a pope!

please take a moment to read catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
“one must first understand the use of the word “father”…”

 

[fbl9]

Jesus said"Call no man on this earth Father(upper case). We all have fathers here on earth, but we only have one Holy Father, and He is not a pope!

St.Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians1:15"…yet you have not many fathers,For in Christ Jesus,through the gospel,did i BEGET you."in vese 14 St.Paul refers to these (the Corinthians) as his children,in verse 17 St.Paul refers to Timothy as his “DEAREST SON” yet St.Paul was single and a virgin.

 

[mercygate]

St.Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians1:15"…yet you have not many fathers,For in Christ Jesus,through the gospel,did i BEGET you."in vese 14 St.Paul refers to these (the Corinthians) as his children,in verse 17 St.Paul refers to Timothy as his “DEAREST SON” yet St.Paul was single and a virgin.

I am puzzled by 1beelevr’s use of the upper case for “Father.” Since the Greek texts have no upper and lower case letters, it was the English translators who chose to use the upper case for the ‘Father in Heaven’ and the lower case for “call no man on earth your father.” This is not an issue AT ALL.

Jesus’ point in that passage was not about using the word “father” (since He uses Himself, as do Paul, Stephen and John to refer to “fathers in faith”) but that we place no fatherhood above the Fatherhood of God.

It is from the fatherhood of God (St. Paul tells us) that all fatherhood in heaven and earth is named. Non-issue.

 

[jlhargus]

Hey, Bubba: In one of your posts, you were saying that no Protestants were defending their faith! Isn’t better to defend the Cross, where our wonderful Saviour gave His life for us; paying a price we couldn’t afford, for a crime He didn’t commit! And when you speak about hierarchy(fathers, bishops, etc.), do you interpret Matthew 23:9 the same way I do? You know, when Jesus said"Call no man on this earth Father(upper case). We all have fathers here on earth, but we only have one Holy Father, and He is not a pope!

JL: Mt 23: 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. [Notice, “call no man your** father (low case) upon the earth.” So according to your theory Christ forbad the low case father not upper case. Whenever I hear, call no man father, I think this person is ignorant of scripture or this person hopes the Catholic is ignorant.

 

[1beleevr]

Okay, now stand very still while I carefully remove that plank from your eyes!(Matthew 7:3-5) My whole point for bringing up Matthew 23:9, was because to me it is blasphemous to call the pope Holy Father(this is God’s title) I believe that is what Jesus meant! Of course, we all have had earthly fathers, but we only have ONE Holy Father, who sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins! His name is not Benedict XV1! This whole thing started with a discussion at work with a good friend at work, who happens to be catholic! He asked me why I couldn’t, or wouldn’t call his pope, “Holy Father”. Two reasons at least, I replied,1) I’m not catholic, and2) he is just a mortal man, not my Holy Father; that would be God!

 

[PJM]

St.Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians1:15"…yet you have not many fathers,For in Christ Jesus,through the gospel,did i BEGET you."in vese 14 St.Paul refers to these (the Corinthians) as his children,in verse 17 St.Paul refers to Timothy as his “DEAREST SON” yet St.Paul was single and a virgin.

:clapping: A+ **For your teaching:tiphat: **

However I wonder what grade your pupil will get for understanding

May God Bless you both, very well done!

 

[jlhargus]

Okay, now stand very still while I carefully remove that plank from your eyes!(Matthew 7:3-5) My whole point for bringing up Matthew 23:9, was because to me it is blasphemous to call the pope Holy Father(this is God’s title) I believe that is what Jesus meant! Of course, we all have had earthly fathers, but we only have ONE Holy Father, who sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins! His name is not Benedict XV1! This whole thing started with a discussion at work with a good friend at work, who happens to be catholic! He asked me why I couldn’t, or wouldn’t call his pope, “Holy Father”. Two reasons at least, I replied,1) I’m not catholic, and2) he is just a mortal man, not my Holy Father; that would be God!

JL: It is your prerogative to believe as you want, no problem that’s fine. But using Mt23:9 as though it forbids calling any man father or Holy Father, in my view not trying to offend you, is lame. Judges 17:10 Stay with me, Micah said to him. Be father and priest to me, and I will give you ten silver shekels a year, a set of garments, and your food. 11 So the young Levite decided to stay with the man, to whom he became as one of his own sons. Priest’s are spiritual fathers, head of the household of God. We are Abraham’s spiritual seed not his natural seed. Just a Paul identifies himself as spiritual father, 1 COR 4:14 I write not these things to shame you but as MY BELOVED SONS, I warn you 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ YET HAVE YE NOT MANY FATHERS FOR IN CHRIST JESUS I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU THROUGH THE GOSPEL.

Yes we call the pope=papa, Holy Father because he is the visible spiritual head of the family of God on earth. That does not mean he is personally holy, some have been scoundrels. It is his office as successor of St Peter that is holy. Have you ever referred to yourself or anyone else as a saint. Saint means holy, it is not blasphemous to call a person saint or holy. Holiness is what God wants of all his people, his holiness that he shares with his people. Lk1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his HOLY PROPHETS, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to OUR FATHERS, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to OUR FATHER ABRAHAM, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 **IN HOLINESS **and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. Hb12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. Hb12:14 Follow peace with all men, and HOLINESS, WITHOUT NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD.

 

[jlhargus]

Well, since Protestants don’t seem to be up to defending their faith here, let me give it a try.

RESOLVED: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans.

Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity.

Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

JL: Scripture is ALWAYS correct and authoritative, we all agree, but interpretations are not ALWAYS correct or authoritative and we have thousands and still splitting denominations claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of the Word of God. Teaching contradicting doctrine. How can that be? if all are led by the same Spirit teaching from the same bible the same sole authority. How can a sole authority scatter, Christian people? Can that really be a sole authority? Some claim, individuals have the ability thru the Spirit to interpret the Word of God authoritatively. Some call themselves non-denominational, a fellowship that has no connection to others. Why? Is it because they can’t agree, with anyone, using that same sole authority.

A good example of a tradition of men made a doctrine of God would be Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura was invented around 1520 when men started to build a tower to heaven. This Tower of Babel caused confusion among people they could no longer understand one another scattering into different groups as they no longer spoke the same Christian faith, but each according to his own understanding. Dividing the people of God into thousands of contentious groups pulling in deferent directions and trying to convert the other to their interpretations of scripture, nullifying the Word of God. As a former Protestant myself, I recall, when talking to a person from another denomination, hearing over and over, “That’s your interpretation not mine”, as if the Word of God can be interpreted anyway one wants. In as many contradicting ways, as there are people who pick up scripture, and decide it says something else. The old “your truth is not my truth”, it is really sad and tragic. Going out from one group to form another, only to have that repeat over and over again. How many Christians has Sola Scriptura united? I know of none. How many has Sola Scriptura divided? How many more will it produce even this year?

Paul asked “is Christ divided?” Why then all these denominations claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit using the bible as sole authority. Paul calls on Christians to “speak the same thing, be of one mind” such divisions are contrary to the gospel. Those same sola scriptura people reject the teaching of that sole authority they claim as their authority. Rejecting that one Apostolic Fellowship sent by Christ, that fellowship he sent to baptize and teach all nations. That apostles fellowship he promised Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of Truth comes he will GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH. The sent fellowship Christ said, Jn 14:26 The Holy Spirit he SHALL TEACH YOU all things and BRING ALL things to your remembrance WHATSOEVER I have said to you . Mt28:16:-20 Christ sent by the Father sent the apostles, saying all authority in heaven and earth has been given me. GO THEREFORE make disciples of all nations TEACHING, BAPTISING, I AM WITH YOU TILL THE END OF THE AGE. Jn15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you The servant is not greater than his lord If they have persecuted me they will also persecute you IF THEY HAVE KEPT MY SAYING THEY WILL KEEP YOUR’S ALSO. Jn17:18, AS THOU HAST SENT ME INTO THE WORLD, EVEN SO HAVE I ALSO SENT THEM INTO THE WORLD. The sent fellowship to whom Christ said, you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my witnesses to the ends of the earth, Acts1:8. The sent fellowship to whom he said LK 10:16 HE THAT HEARETH YOU HEARETH ME; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR Us=Church, the apostles and their successors, whom God has called to speak and lead the one fellowship in truth, with authority, by laying on of hands in an unbroken line from the apostles to the bishops till the end of time, Mt 28:20. How? through successors by laying of hands in an unbroken line from apostles to bishops to bishops to the present even to the end of the age, Why? To make men see what is the fellowship of the mystery hid in God, that now to principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph 3:9-11. Sent forth by the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands
CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY the PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 God has given us THE SPIRIT OF POWER TITUS 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS IN EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. ACTS 14:23 when they had ORDAINED ELDERS IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. ACTS 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE YOU OVERSEERS to feed the church of God purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the ELDERS THAT RULE well be counted worthy of double honour especially they WHO LABOUR IN THE WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 TIM4:13 Till I come ATTEND TO READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH the LAYING ON THE HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED TO yourself to the DOCTRINE CONTINUE IN THEM for in doing this YOU SHALT both SAVE YOURSELF AND THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.

This sent fellowship he prayed would be sanctified in truth. The sent fellowship which Christ prayed would be ONE so the world would believe the Father sent him, Jn 17:18-21, the sent Apostolic Fellowship to which all continued in stedfast union in FELLOWSHIP, DOCTRINE, BREAKING OF BREAD, and PRAYERS, Acts 2:41-42, the sent fellowship to whom Christ said, he who receives any one whom I send receives me and he who receives me receives him who sent me, Jn13:20. The sent fellowship which is the household of the living God THE CHURCH the PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH, 1Tm 3:15.

Scripture tells us, to be a valid minister one must be sent, Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT they be SENT? LK 22:29 I appoint you a kingdom as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel 31 Simon Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that your faith fail not when you are converted, strengthen your brethren. [When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not. this was said in the presents of the other apostles, who must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter who alone was given the keys of the kingdom and the promise his faith will not fail, the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church]

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment. Lk 24:48 you are witnesses of these things 49 I SEND the promise of my Father upon you WAIT in Jerusalem TILL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH.

I cannot find a valid minister in the New Covenant who was not sent by laying on of hands in the apostolic line. The independents I find are those who go out from the apostolic fellowship of their own authority, Act 15:24 We heard some persons FROM US (Apostolic Fellowship) have troubled you WE gave them no instructions. They are teaching their own opinion of scripture that one must be circumcised and follow the OT law, even if validly ordained, they must be sent (authorized) by that fellowship, the church, else they go out on their own authority, not God’s. Another example of those who do not belong to that one fellowship the difference being they did not go out from the fellowship. Mk 9:38 …John said Master we saw one casting out devils in your name…HE DOES NOT FOLLOW US … WE forbad him because HE DOES NOT FOLLOW US 39 Jesus said Forbid him not… 40 he that is not against US is on OUR part. This person has faith and knowledge of Christ, but not the fullness of truth and knowledge of the gospel. He is a separated brother in an imperfect spiritual union with the Church, though he does not follow or listen to that fellowship out of sincere conviction.

Catholics do not rely on man or self as those who are sola scriptura must. Relying on their own or another man’s interpretation and understanding of scripture for their salvation. Catholics rely on Christ and those whom Christ has called and set in his body the Chruch and given the Holy Spirit to guide them in ALL TRUTH. HB 13:7 Remember them which have the RULE over you WHO have SPOKEN TO YOU THE WORD OF GOD WHOSE FAITH FOLLOW…1Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, ESPECIALLY they WHO LABOUR IN THE WORD AND DOCTRINE, Hb 3:17 OBEY YOUR LEADERS and SUBMIT to them THEY ARE KEEPING WATCH OVER YOUR SOULS as MEM WHO WILL have to GIVE ACCOUNT…

 

[ClementRome]

Well, since Protestants don’t seem to be up to defending their faith here, let me give it a try.

RESOLVED: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans.

Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity.

Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

so your saying the Church was a failure after Acts?

Thats contrary to the promise of the Holy Spirit guiding his Church till the end of time.

 

[CoachSTL]

Well, since Protestants don’t seem to be up to defending their faith here, let me give it a try.

RESOLVED: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans.

Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity.

Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

Bubba,

You have it backwards. The main element of Christianity that distinguishes it from Protetantism is it’s history. Christ’s Teaching started with him, and exists today, unbroken and consistent, and will be so until the end of the earth. It is consistent because it is Sacred.

Protestantism is an invention, started by Martin Luther, in the 1500’s that attempts to justify it purpose in Christ through personal biblical interpretation. The multiple invented “christian” religions is proof of this invention today. Everyone of them is founded upon a man, or groups of men’s invented biblical interpretation.

Christians became Catholic. The word was invented sometime prior to 80 AD. There was not an invented Catholic Church that became Christian. Christians became identified as catholic to distinguish them from the heretical teachings of the time.

This is history! This is what is meant by Sacred Tradtion.

Prayerfully,

Coachstl

 

[1beleevr]

JL: It is your prerogative to believe as you want, no problem that’s fine. But using Mt23:9 as though it forbids calling any man father or Holy Father, in my view not trying to offend you, is lame. Judges 17:10 Stay with me, Micah said to him. Be father and priest to me, and I will give you ten silver shekels a year, a set of garments, and your food. 11 So the young Levite decided to stay with the man, to whom he became as one of his own sons. Priest’s are spiritual fathers, head of the household of God. We are Abraham’s spiritual seed not his natural seed. Just a Paul identifies himself as spiritual father, 1 COR 4:14 I write not these things to shame you but as MY BELOVED SONS, I warn you 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ YET HAVE YE NOT MANY FATHERS FOR IN CHRIST JESUS I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU THROUGH THE GOSPEL. Lest we forget, the pope is only the visible head of God on earth for catholics! While he might be recognized and respected for being a man of God, his authority is pretty much restricted to his church.

Yes we call the pope=papa, Holy Father because he is the visible spiritual head of the family of God on earth. That does not mean he is personally holy, some have been scoundrels. It is his office as successor of St Peter that is holy. Have you ever referred to yourself or anyone else as a saint. Saint means holy, it is not blasphemous to call a person saint or holy. Holiness is what God wants of all his people, his holiness that he shares with his people. Lk1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his HOLY PROPHETS, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 72 To perform the mercy promised to OUR FATHERS, and to remember his holy covenant; 73 The oath which he sware to OUR FATHER ABRAHAM, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 75 **IN HOLINESS **and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. Hb12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be PARTAKERS OF HIS HOLINESS. Hb12:14 Follow peace with all men, and HOLINESS, WITHOUT NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, coachstl, were you a salesman in your previous life? Because it sounds like you’re trying to sell the idea that Protestants are not Christians ! That would reduce us all to Jews and Gentiles, right? Oh wait a minute, you guys claim that your church was started by a Jew; so would that make you Messianic Jews? I am a believer and follower of Christ first, and whatever label you catholics prefer to hang on me second! I choose non-denominational, because that way, I am not “bound” by any religious body, which has rules, rituals and LAWS! Just like being a political independent, free to vote your heart, not the ticket.

 

[1beleevr]

About a year and a half ago, I was going around the AM radio dial, and happened upon, I believe it’s EWTN, catholic radio out of Bakersfield, California. Ther was a talk show on, with a guest, a host and people would call in to discuss different topics. It was around 3:30 PM, and a caller had asked something about the thief on the cross(Luke 23:40-43). The guest, whose name I can’t recall, an apologetic or something like that(what is he sorry about?) Any way, we all know the story about how the thief asks Jesus to remember him when Jesus went into His Kingdom. And Jesus replied," I assure you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." This guest said to the caller, “Oh, that never could have happened; because the thief wouldn’t have had time to come down off the cross and get saved and baptized.” I almost fell out of my chair, when I heard this! I mean, the Creator of the universe, assures you that you will be in Heaven with Him, and some mere mortal man says" that could never happen." Is somebody lying here?

 

[ron77nyc]

Hey, coachstl, were you a salesman in your previous life? Because it sounds like you’re trying to sell the idea that Protestants are not Christians ! That would reduce us all to Jews and Gentiles, right? Oh wait a minute, you guys claim that your church was started by a Jew; so would that make you Messianic Jews? I am a believer and follower of Christ first, and whatever label you catholics prefer to hang on me second! I choose non-denominational, because that way, I am not “bound” by any religious body, which has rules, rituals and LAWS! Just like being a political independent, free to vote your heart, not the ticket.

From: (Jack McCaw)
Newsgroups: aus.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Which came first, faith or reason?
Date: 24 May 1998 14:53:44 GMT

A Jewish man goes to his mate, and says “My son has just come back from Uni, and now he says he has become a Christian… What should I do?”
His mate says “It’s incredible - I just got a letter from my son,
and he has become a Christian too!”
Thoroughly worried, the Jewish men go to the rabbi and say
“I have the worst news Rabbi, my son went away, and now that he has come back to see me - he has become a Christian!”
The Rabbi responded “It’s true? I must tell you - I sent my son away to study, and now he has come back - HE now tells me that he has become a Christian…”

Not knowing what next to do, the Rabbi says he will take their
concerns to God. The Rabbi goes into the temple to pray…“Lord, what should we do. Our son’s have been away from us, and
when they come back - they have become Christians…”

A gentle voice comes back to them…

“Well, it’s funny you should mention that…”

 

[1beleevr]

I know that the catholic church uses John 6:51-56 to justify the practice of transsubstantiation, something that still makes many scratch their heads! Do you also refer to Matthew 26:26-29 to define the Passover meal or communion? I attended a catholic funeral a few months ago, and during communion(which I was forbidden to partake of), the priest held and drank from a goblet, and placed wafers in the mouths of those who had come forward. I turned to my wife and said,“What’s wrong with this picture?” I guess they are like sheep(and not in the sense of Jesus’s sheep) and are not capable to take communion on their own.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Welcome to the thread. One correction to my OP: the time of interest is between 65AD and 110AD. (I was sloppy in the OP, Acts doesn’t end in 99AD but in 65AD.) Also, I posted a Part 2 here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=311451

so your saying the Church was a failure after Acts?

No. The question I raised in this thread was whether the distinctive elements of Catholicism (what distinguishes it from Protestantism) were invented after Acts. I haven’t taken a position one way or another whether the post-Acts inventions represent a “failure” or a success.

Thats contrary to the promise of the Holy Spirit guiding his Church till the end of time.

Not necessarily. Certainly if Catholic post-Acts inventions were a success and not a “failure” then that might be attributed to the Holy Spirit.

But the problem is that Protestants also claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and nobody has tongues flame over their heads to demonstrate the presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You have it backwards. The main element of Christianity that distinguishes it from Protetantism is it’s history. Christ’s Teaching started with him, and exists today, unbroken and consistent, and will be so until the end of the earth. It is consistent because it is Sacred.

What I was arguing here was that Protestants have sought to bypass the post-Acts Church (for the most part, there are obvious exceptions) and link back to the Apostolic Church.

Protestantism is an invention, started by Martin Luther, in the 1500’s that attempts to justify it purpose in Christ through personal biblical interpretation. The multiple invented “christian” religions is proof of this invention today. Everyone of them is founded upon a man, or groups of men’s invented biblical interpretation.

The question might be asked, though, whether Catholicism is simply one of those inventions. After all, Catholics disagree with Protestants just as Protestants disagree among themselves.

Christians became Catholic. The word was invented sometime prior to 80 AD. There was not an invented Catholic Church that became Christian. Christians became identified as catholic to distinguish them from the heretical teachings of the time.

Both words are inventions, of course. (The word “Christian” was not invented by Christians but by pagans.)

The interesting thing is that there have always been “heretical teachings”. The Catholic claim is, of course, that it is the true teaching and that all others are false. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is simply whether Catholicism is today what it was in the Apostolic age. Obviously not.

 

[Ross09]

I know that the catholic church uses John 6:51-56 to justify the practice of transsubstantiation, something that still makes many scratch their heads! Do you also refer to Matthew 26:26-29 to define the Passover meal or communion? I attended a catholic funeral a few months ago, and during communion(which I was forbidden to partake of), the priest held and drank from a goblet, and placed wafers in the mouths of those who had come forward. I turned to my wife and said,“What’s wrong with this picture?” I guess they are like sheep(and not in the sense of Jesus’s sheep) and are not capable to take communion on their own.

It’s out of reverence that the people allow the priest to place the Eucharist on their tongue, to reduce the chance of dropping the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ which we believe is present in “the wafer.”