The Invention of Catholicism?

[ron77nyc]

He DIDN’T promise the advocate to each and every human being on earth! Christ promised it to His Church - to the men establishing His Church on earth and promised it forever to the men who would lead His Church on earth until His RETURN to keep His Church from error and protect it from the gates of hades. He didn’t promise to send an advocate to you, to me, to Luther, to Billy Graham, or each and every human being on earth. That is a new created theory that is LESS THAN 500 years old. Although, we are warned to be careful what spirit we follow.

1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation begins with the renewal of baptismal promises and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

1299 In the Roman Rite the bishop extends his hands over the whole group of the confirmands. Since the time of the apostles this gesture has signified the gift of the Spirit. The bishop invokes the outpouring of the Spirit in these words:

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by water and the Holy Spirit
you freed your sons and daughters from sin
and gave them new life.
Send your Holy Spirit upon them
to be their helper and guide.
Give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of right judgment and courage,
the spirit of knowledge and reverence.
Fill them with the spirit of wonder and awe in your presence.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.113

1 John
Chapter 4
1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.
4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

 

[Always_For_Him]

You make my case. If not the Catholic Church, than it is a no go.

You offer no solution other than the Catholic church.

When the solution is Christ, then worship as you see it.

Peace>>>AJ

Can you not see that you are denying Christ’s Authority? Who gave it to you? Only Christ can put commands on us. He did, and we are to follow them the way He said do it. The Universal Church IS the Catholic Church - Christ’s Church. He only founded ONE Church. There IS no other church. You choose to do it your own way, "worship as you see it’, and are fallible and not following His way, but your own.

 

[Always_For_Him]

1298 When Confirmation is celebrated separately from Baptism, as is the case in the Roman Rite, the Liturgy of Confirmation begins with the renewal of baptismal promises and the profession of faith by the confirmands. This clearly shows that Confirmation follows Baptism.111 When adults are baptized, they immediately receive Confirmation and participate in the Eucharist.112

1299 In the Roman Rite the bishop extends his hands over the whole group of the confirmands. Since the time of the apostles this gesture has signified the gift of the Spirit. The bishop invokes the outpouring of the Spirit in these words:

All-powerful God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by water and the Holy Spirit
you freed your sons and daughters from sin
and gave them new life.
Send your Holy Spirit upon them
to be their helper and guide.
Give them the spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the spirit of right judgment and courage,
the spirit of knowledge and reverence.
Fill them with the spirit of wonder and awe in your presence.
We ask this through Christ our Lord.113

That is not saying that each man has his own authority to interpret Scripture. We were not given any authority to teach what scripture means or to deviate from it. Christ ONLY gave it the Apostles, and their successors who ARE the Church magisterium. Any twisting of authority outside of that is man’s doing, and I can’t concern myself with that.

 

[ron77nyc]

That is not saying that each man has his own authority to interpret Scripture. We were not given any authority to teach what scripture means or to deviate from it. Christ ONLY gave it the Apostles, and their successors who ARE the Church magisterium. Any twisting of authority outside of that is man’s doing, and I can’t concern myself with that.

If we see the Church or any Church for that matter not following the teachings of the apostles and Jesus we are to wake up and ask the Holy Spirit within us to teach us the truth about the matter. We are not to follow blindly. This is why we study and contemplate on the scriptures. Studying the scriptures is also a tradition. Cults are not allowed to to this that is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are who they are. I can’t comment on other cults because I don’t know too much about them. Is the authority the truth or is the truth the authority?

 

[Always_For_Him]

If we see the Church or any Church for that matter not following the teachings of the apostles and Jesus we are to wake up and ask the Holy Spirit within us to teach us the truth about the matter. We are not to follow blindly. This is why we study and contemplate on the scriptures. Studying the scriptures is also a tradition. Cults are not allowed to to this that is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are who they are. I can’t comment on other cults because I don’t know too much about them. Is the authority the truth or is the truth the authority?

Are there teachings of the apostles and Jesus that you believe the Catholic Church is not following? It is all how you look at it and the interpretation that you give it. Our job is to understand Christ’s meaning that He gave the Deposit of Faith to His Church in it’s original context. You can’t do that with protestant bias guiding you. At some point, you have to have faith that Jesus did what He said He would do, and that the Catholic Church who wrote the Bible really does understand and teach the correct understanding/context. If not, there is nothing else you have except the thousands of different interpretations by man of the Bible we wrote. You can just throw your Bible away. It is of NO use to people who don’t have faith in Christ’s promise to guide and protect His Church. Black print on white paper can mean anything the reader wants it to mean.

If you study and contemplate the Scriptures outside of Apostolic context, then you are creating your own Truth which is error. It is important in the little stuff as well as the big stuff. None of us has the authority to say what we think it means. None of us has the authority to teach our interpretation. We have to always defer to Apostolic tradition. That has been recorded enough through history to prove everything we are saying. The trouble is that one can NEVER go back and read everything and most people don’t. They just believe what they have been taught as Truth and then use their “Truth” to prove the Catholic Church wrong.

Christ iIS the Authority and He gave us the Truth, the Way to it and His visible Church on earth to guide us in that Truth until His return. We have to believe that He IS protecting it like He said He would. That is Faith!!! Otherwise, it all doesn’t matter. Luther, Calvin and Zwingli in the 1500’s, or Smith in the 1800’s didn’t come along 1500-1800 years later with that Truth did they? No, the writings of the NT themselves were completed by the death of the last Apostle. They were protected and orally taught by the Church up to writing their teachings down (the Bible) and after. The magisterium of the Church is all we have to understanding what NT Scripture is actually saying. That is all we had in the 100’s, 1500’s, 1800’s and have today. If Jesus hasn’t protected His Church, then we have thousands and thousands of man-made teachings, doctrines and traditions to choose from. Is that what we want? It seems so, because that is what you and protestantism are condoning.

 

[cazayoux]

If we see the Church or any Church for that matter not following the teachings of the apostles and Jesus we are to wake up and ask the Holy Spirit within us to teach us the truth about the matter. We are not to follow blindly. This is why we study and contemplate on the scriptures. Studying the scriptures is also a tradition. Cults are not allowed to to this that is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are who they are. I can’t comment on other cults because I don’t know too much about them. Is the authority the truth or is the truth the authority?

God’s word is Truth.
Jesus Himself is Truth.
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

you stated ‘…not following the teachings of the apostles and Jesus …’
How do you know what the teachings of the apostles and Jesus actually are?
You may state that you can plainly see it in scripture… actually, i see again that you study and contemplate on the scriptures … so maybe not that plain.
So maybe that (no so plainly clearness) is why we see so many distinctions in doctrine between our non-Catholic Christian brothers.

After your study and contemplation, how do you know you didn’t misinterpret?

Do you go to the church for the truth of the matter, like scripture says?
Which church in the phone book do YOU go to?

michel

 

[ron77nyc]

God’s word is Truth.
Jesus Himself is Truth.
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

you stated ‘…not following the teachings of the apostles and Jesus …’
How do you know what the teachings of the apostles and Jesus actually are?
You may state that you can plainly see it in scripture… actually, i see again that you study and contemplate on the scriptures … so maybe not that plain.
So maybe that (no so plainly clearness) is why we see so many distinctions in doctrine between our non-Catholic Christian brothers.

After your study and contemplation, how do you know you didn’t misinterpret?

Do you go to the church for the truth of the matter, like scripture says?
Which church in the phone book do YOU go to?

michel

I always check with the Catholic Church to see what is right because they are always right. Those other churches are the ones with problems.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Scriptures don’t teach themselves. Humans have to interpret what they mean. That interpretation is shaped by what they already have come to know or believe. That is why so many different denominations can quote where their belief is in Scripture. So many denominations are founded by the cherry picking of verses to prove their teachings anyway. This is ALL man, of man, by man.

When you study and contemplate Scripture apart from the authoritative teaching on it, you come up with your own interpretation. Scripture didn’t teach that to you, you interpret it that way. Every single person that interprets for themselves what they think Scripture means, is essentially claiming to be their own authority on it. Scripture itself says not to do that!!! I guess they just ignore that part.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit guided the Apostles and their successors then?

What is the evidence that the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit? That is a tradition of the CC. It is not a historical fact that we can examine independently.

And, in fact, if you read Acts, and even the Gospels, you can’t help but notice that the only person who speaks with complete confidence and authority is Jesus. The Apostles are mostly clueless in the Gospels (with notworthy exceptions such as Peter’s recognition of Jesus as the Messiah) and, in Acts, they are groping around for solutions to problems that Jesus hadn’t given them guidance on (e.g. the question of whether abd how to preach to the gentiles).

If the Holy Spirit guided them then, did It just stop, leave? Jesus said it, so we believe it. Yes it is faith. THAT IS ALL WE HAVE. Christians today have the teachings of the Catholic Church as written down in the NT BECAUSE, the Church wrote it down for all future generations. The problem came in when MAN separated those writings from her and interpreted them themselves.

If it’s just one faith vs. another then why prefer Catholic faith to Protestant faith?

I am not the most eloquent, consice writer, so, someone else may be able to write it better. But, I stand by that because there is a paper trail all the way back to the apostles. If you want to take the 50-60 year absence of certain writings to task, good luck. There are writings of Church magisterium during that period of time that beautifully spell out the practices, beliefs, etc. of the Church. That is all we have Bubba! Man has created everything else since the reformation on his own authority.

That is, though, a pretty serious gap during which the CC becomes institutionalized and key theology is developed.

I was browing books at the bookstore today and came across A Concise History of the Catholic Church. The first chapter was Jesus and the Apostles. The second chapter began in 2C AD. Half a century is lost between them. No mention is made of the destruction of the Second Temple. Very odd.

 

[Always_For_Him]

What is the evidence that the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit? That is a tradition of the CC. It is not a historical fact that we can examine independently…

If you believe ONE word of the NT Scriptures, then you have to believe in the Catholic Church that brought them to you.

It seems that you doubt Christianity by that question. The Oral and Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church has been in place for 2,000 years. That is all we have. Men, on their own authority, have taken the teachings of the Catholic Church and made them into what they wanted them to mean. Look at what that has done to Christ’s Body! Is that what you prefer? If you want to follow Christ, then you have to do it the way He said to do it. Protestants do it their own way. They have phased out the sacrements, they have denied almost everything about the Catholic Church to separate themselves from her because they can’t admit their lack of authority. They have also ignored certain Scripture because they want to do what they want to do.

And, in fact, if you read Acts, and even the Gospels, you can’t help but notice that the only person who speaks with complete confidence and authority is Jesus. The Apostles are mostly clueless in the Gospels (with notworthy exceptions such as Peter’s recognition of Jesus as the Messiah) and, in Acts, they are groping around for solutions to problems that Jesus hadn’t given them guidance on (e.g. the question of whether abd how to preach to the gentiles)…

The Apostles were human. I am not sure that there EVER would be 12 men ready to take on His task. But at Pentecost, He made them ready. They were busy beginning the task at hand and as humans lacked the more professional aspect of how to organize anything, but very quickly got it together. You question their method? How would you have done it back then? No car, amidst persecution, etc… Jesus gave His Authority, the keys and binding and loosing to His Church. No other Church has it.
Bubba Switzler:

If it’s just one faith vs. another then why prefer Catholic faith to Protestant faith?..

That is a question for you to answer for yourself I guess. The Catholic Church is the only Church that can be traced back to the Apostles. It is historically documented. Just because you haven’t read it all, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. The Protestant churches came almost 1600-2000 years later and can all be traced back to the name of the person who started that particular church and the year it was founded. That alone, tells me that protesant faith is not Christ’s Church. If I am going to have faith in any church teaching, in any teaching at all, it is going to be from the one that still teaches in unity, Apostolic teaching and has it’s roots in the Apostles. Only the Catholic Church can fit that description.
Bubba Switzler:

That is, though, a pretty serious gap during which the CC becomes institutionalized and key theology is developed…

Not really. As understanding grows, the teaching becomes more full. It is the same both sides of your gap. The need to define something in an easier way manifests itself in terminology. As the visible Church grew and was established all around the world, it would need to be managed in a organized way. They took their way from the heirarch of the Jews in the OT. This just leads back to the authority of binding and loosing that Jesus gave the Apostles. The teaching has remained the same.
Bubba Switzler:

I was browing books at the bookstore today and came across A Concise History of the Catholic Church. The first chapter was Jesus and the Apostles. The second chapter began in 2C AD. Half a century is lost between them. No mention is made of the destruction of the Second Temple. Very odd.

I do not know. The writings that exist from that time still show that we practice the same mass, and that the Catholic Church is the same today as it was then. If there had been some kind of drastic change, then maybe you would have reason for concern. But, there was not. It is the same on both sides of your gap. It just hasn’t been put together for you in a way where you can see it yet.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

If you believe ONE word of the NT Scriptures, then you have to believe in the Catholic Church that brought them to you.

That’s ridiculous, of course.

It seems that you doubt Christianity by that question. The Oral and Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church has been in place for 2,000 years.

And it improves with age?

That is all we have. Men, on their own authority, have taken the teachings of the Catholic Church and made them into what they wanted them to mean. Look at what that has done to Christ’s Body! Is that what you prefer? If you want to follow Christ, then you have to do it the way He said to do it.

Let’s be serious for a moment: this is exactly what Protestants profess to do. The Catholic claim is that they got it wrong. The Protestants claim the Catholics got it wrong. Both are internally consistent.

Protestants do it their own way. They have phased out the sacrements, they have denied almost everything about the Catholic Church to separate themselves from her because they can’t admit their lack of authority. They have also ignored certain Scripture because they want to do what they want to do.

They have invoked faith in a personal authority, with personal guidance from the Holy Spirit. (Actually it’s more complicate than that but that’s what it boils down to.)

The Apostles were human. I am not sure that there EVER would be 12 men ready to take on His task. But at Pentecost, He made them ready.

Yes, indeed. Very human. Most of the disputes in Acts occur after Pentecost.

They were busy beginning the task at hand and as humans lacked the more professional aspect of how to organize anything, but very quickly got it together. You question their method? How would you have done it back then? No car, amidst persecution, etc… Jesus gave His Authority, the keys and binding and loosing to His Church. No other Church has it.

It was remarkable indeed. But that’s not the question. The question is whether it was inerrant.

As understanding grows, the teaching becomes more full. It is the same both sides of your gap. The need to define something in an easier way manifests itself in terminology. As the visible Church grew and was established all around the world, it would need to be managed in a organized way. They took their way from the heirarch of the Jews in the OT. This just leads back to the authority of binding and loosing that Jesus gave the Apostles. The teaching has remained the same.

Grew or remained the same? Which is it?

In no other field of human endeavor does understanding grow without error.

I do not know. The writings that exist from that time still show that we practice the same mass, and that the Catholic Church is the same today as it was then. If there had been some kind of drastic change, then maybe you would have reason for concern. But, there was not. It is the same on both sides of your gap. It just hasn’t been put together for you in a way where you can see it yet.

This is a claim I discuss in greater detail here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=311451

 

[banjo]

I always check with the Catholic Church to see what is right because they are always right. Those other churches are the ones with problems.

ron,
I’ve read several of your posts in this thread to see where you’re coming from. I get the impression that you reject, at least in part, Sacred Tradition, the development of doctrine and the Teaching Magisterium of the Church. Have you read An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine; by John Henry Cardinal Newman? The following link relates to biblical interpretation.

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory_print.asp?number=93914

 

[banjo]

What is the evidence that the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit? That is a tradition of the CC. It is not a historical fact that we can examine independently.

And, in fact, if you read Acts, and even the Gospels, you can’t help but notice that the only person who speaks with complete confidence and authority is Jesus.

Actually, in Acts, Christ tells the Apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit which comes to them at Pentecost. Thereafter, they are guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jake23]

If we see the Church or any Church for that matter not following the teachings of the apostles and Jesus we are to wake up and ask the Holy Spirit within us to teach us the truth about the matter. We are not to follow blindly. This is why we study and contemplate on the scriptures. Studying the scriptures is also a tradition. Cults are not allowed to to this that is why the Jehovah’s Witnesses are who they are. I can’t comment on other cults because I don’t know too much about them. Is the authority the truth or is the truth the authority?

Ron you can’t pick up a chemistry book and understand what it means without proper instruction so without a proper teacher to guide you, you will not learn correctly! This is why after the church aka instrument of christ made the book we call the bible it was imperative for the church to go in guidance to make sure other cultures and new ages would understand correctly! This is why you can go to 10 protestant churches and here 10 different interpretations of 1 verse! I see now why christ wanted one body aka church. Since the church is the bride of christ I would suggest everyone unites with the catholic church because I am pretty sure christ is not a polygamist!

 

[Always_For_Him]

That’s ridiculous, of course.

No, it is not. You just don’t agree with it. You think men in in the 1500’s or 1800’s had greater access to Apostolic teachings?

Protestants don’t admit to changing anything. They claim that the Holy Spirit has lead them to the real truth and then they teach that as truth - all 30,000 plus versions of it.

You twist everything. To come to a deeper understanding is different than changing it like Luther did, like modern day preachers do. You know very well what I mean by “remains the same.” The deeper understanding or actual naming the Trinity, for example, didn’t change anything, just led to a more full understanding of what it means. That happens on a personal level as each of us grows. We learn a child’s faith, and then it deepens with meaning as the understanding matures as we grow older. You either believe the Holy Spirit was guiding the Apostles and their successors like He said He was going to do, or you believe Jesus lied, or couldnt’ do what He said He would do. Which is it?

So, you think the sucessors of the Apostles taught error? You will have to name them and please provide your evidence.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, it is not. You just don’t agree with it.

I don’t agree with it because it’s ridiculous. Just because I believe Dawkins on genes doesn’t mean I have to believe what he says about God. Just because I believe Julius Caesar about his claim to have conquered Gaul doesn’t mean I have to believe his estimates of Gaulic strength.

You think men in in the 1500’s or 1800’s had greater access to Apostolic teachings?

Nope. But do neither am I prepared to say that they don’t have access to the Holy Spirit either.

Protestants don’t admit to changing anything. They claim that the Holy Spirit has lead them to the real truth and then they teach that as truth - all 30,000 plus versions of it.

Exactly. Nobody changed nothin’. Everybody is inspired by the Holy Spirit. All we have to do now is figure out who was really inspired by the Holy Spirit.

To come to a deeper understanding is different than changing it like Luther did, like modern day preachers do. You know very well what I mean by “remains the same.” The deeper understanding or actual naming the Trinity, for example, didn’t change anything, just led to a more full understanding of what it means. That happens on a personal level as each of us grows. We learn a child’s faith, and then it deepens with meaning as the understanding matures as we grow older. You either believe the Holy Spirit was guiding the Apostles and their successors like He said He was going to do, or you believe Jesus lied, or couldnt’ do what He said He would do. Which is it?

Yes, I understand the differences but there are actually three (main) possibilities here:

1. That the CC church today teaches exactly what the Apostles taught. This is the most absurd claim, it is the one that I have argued against in this thread, but you’d be surprised how many Catholics bristle at suggesting otherwise.
2. That the CC has today has contradicted something that the Apostles taught. That is not what I’ve claimed here but it’s what Protestants believe.
3. That the CC teaches new things that don’t contradict what the Apostles taught but is, in fact, more than what they taught.

So, you think the sucessors of the Apostles taught error? You will have to name them and please provide your evidence.

I don’t rule out that possibility. But here I’ve focused on claiming #3 above.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Nope. But do neither am I prepared to say that they don’t have access to the Holy Spirit either.

So, the ECF’s, the magisterium of Christ’s Church WEREN’T inspired by the Holy Spirit, and DIDN’T have access to the Holy Spirit even though Christ gave them His promise, but the Reformers and those men founding churches of their own have access to the Holy Spirit?

Exactly. Nobody changed nothin’. Everybody is inspired by the Holy Spirit. All we have to do now is figure out who was really inspired by the Holy Spirit.

They most certainly did make changes. Everyone is NOT infallible though. Jesus didn’t give US His authority. He gave us the direction through the Apostles and the magisterium of the Church. Protestants have had almost 500 years to figure it out. The only thing they have done has been to fracture Christianity into thousands of interpretations and teach their following that they have the authority to interpret the NT Scriptures that were written by someone else.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Bubba,
Who are you to decide what is inspired or not inspired? Who are you to question the Early Church Fathers? Who is anyone to think they know better what the Early Church taught over the actual Church itself?

 

[jake23]

No one here has the right to disagree with the church and create a personal interpretation! You should investigate and study the faith thoroughly with questions and doing so will give you comfort in the church but to blindly disagree with the church and to decide a personal interpretation is vain and blasphemous! Just because you don’t fully understand somthing and don’t want to agree with it does not mean that it is wrong! If so then I guess children should no longer listen to there parents and elders! I don’t know about you and where you are going but I know I am going to listen and go where the 2000 year old mother church tells me too!

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

So, the ECF’s, the magisterium of Christ’s Church WEREN’T inspired by the Holy Spirit, and DIDN’T have access to the Holy Spirit even though Christ gave them His promise, but the Reformers and those men founding churches of their own have access to the Holy Spirit?

I don’t know what happened to my original sentence but that’s not what I said.

You are presuming that “access to the Holy Spirit” EQUALS infallibility. I’m not ruling out fallibility. But even that is not what I was saying either.

What I was saying was that Protestants claim also to be guided by the Holy Spirit and I have no knowledge that would contradict that claim.

They most certainly did make changes. Everyone is NOT infallible though. Jesus didn’t give US His authority. He gave us the direction through the Apostles and the magisterium of the Church.

Well, that’s what the CC claims, anyway.

The only thing they have done has been to fracture Christianity into thousands of interpretations and teach their following that they have the authority to interpret the NT Scriptures that were written by someone else.

I don’t see it that way. I’m not going to defend Protestant theology, though I do find things in it that I like now and then, but I would strongly disagree with the assertion that “the only thing they have done has been to fracture Christianity…”.

It may well be that the Holy Spirit led Protestants in the direction that they took and that Christianity (and the world) is better for it.