The Invention of Catholicism?

[Bubba_Switzler]

Who are you to decide what is inspired or not inspired? Who are you to question the Early Church Fathers? Who is anyone to think they know better what the Early Church taught over the actual Church itself?

Well, that is the Protestant question in a nutshell, isn’t it?

But then if we are to consider this question don’t we need to begin with an examination of what the Early Church taught and when varios dogma were developed?

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron you can’t pick up a chemistry book and understand what it means without proper instruction so without a proper teacher to guide you, you will not learn correctly! This is why after the church aka instrument of christ made the book we call the bible it was imperative for the church to go in guidance to make sure other cultures and new ages would understand correctly! This is why you can go to 10 protestant churches and here 10 different interpretations of 1 verse! I see now why christ wanted one body aka church. Since the church is the bride of christ I would suggest everyone unites with the catholic church because I am pretty sure christ is not a polygamist!

All those who believe in the resurrection are His. Belonging to the Church is not a free pass to heaven. God will gather His faithful from all denominations. He knows His sheep and His sheep know His voice.

There is division among Catholics over many issues in the church and there are obviously many divisions among Protestants but they all agree that the bible is God’s word and Jesus is their savior. Jesus wasn’t trying to teach anything difficult. He came to simplify the Law. He said all the commandments are summed up in loving God and loving your neighbor. The bible isn’t that hard to understand. We are saved by faith and those who have faith will not continue to live in darkness.

 

[elvisman]

All those who believe in the resurrection are His. Belonging to the Church is not a free pass to heaven. God will gather His faithful from all denominations. He knows His sheep and His sheep know His voice.

There is division among Catholics over many issues in the church and there are obviously many divisions among Protestants but they all agree that the bible is God’s word and Jesus is their savior. Jesus wasn’t trying to teach anything difficult. He came to simplify the Law. He said all the commandments are summed up in loving God and loving your neighbor. The bible isn’t that hard to understand. We are saved by faith and those who have faith will not continue to live in darkness.

WRONG** again, Ron.**
Not "all those who believe in the resurrection are His". Even the demons believe in Jesus and the resurrection.
(Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, James 2:19).
Does this make the demons part of the Church? NOPE.

Remember what Jesus said:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Finall, Ron - we** ARE**** saved by faith - but not the the easy believeism that you and many Protestants promote. What does St. Paul have to say about this in 1 Cor. 13? He says:**
"So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love."**

Notice he DOESN’T say that Faith is the greatest. ANYone can believe but not everyone will "put their money where their mouth is", so to speak.

Faith is not only believing - it is** DOing**** the Lord’s will:**

DOing the Lord’s will** - Matt. 7:21-27
Confession - Matt. 16:19, Matt, 18:15-18, John 20:22-23
the Eucharist - ****Matt. 26:26-28,**John 6:31-71, 1 Cor. 11:23-26

 

[fbl9]

Well, that is the Protestant question in a nutshell, isn’t it?

But then if we are to consider this question don’t we need to begin with an examination of what the Early Church taught and when varios dogma were developed?

St.Paul’s first Epistle to the Corithians3:10-15 a closer look at verse 12"But if anyone builds on this foundation,gold,silver,percious stones,wood hay,straw…"We know that the doctrines/dogmas of the catholic church are built on this one same foundation that St.Paul speaks of :which is the life ,death and ressurection of Jesus.In my catholic eyes the church has built using gold,silver and precious stones.In the eyes of others she(catholic church) has used wood ,hay and straw.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

St.Paul’s first Epistle to the Corithians3:10-15 a closer look at verse 12"But if anyone builds on this foundation,gold,silver,percious stones,wood hay,straw…"We know that the doctrines/dogmas of the catholic church are built on this one same foundation that St.Paul speaks of :which is the life ,death and ressurection of Jesus.In my catholic eyes the church has built using gold,silver and precious stones.In the eyes of others she(catholic church) has used wood ,hay and straw.

10(A) According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a(B) foundation, and(C) someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a(D) foundation other(E) than that which is laid,(F) which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13(G) each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed(H) by fire, and(I) the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives,(J) he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved,(K) but only as through fire.

Yes, a most appropriate choice of scripture.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+3:10-15

Now the interesting question is this: what is the fire that tests the building?

I was browsing through The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Vol. 1: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (100-600) at the bookstore today. It brought to mind Otto von Bismarck’s famous quote: “Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made.”

 

[ron77nyc]

WRONG** again, Ron.**
Not "all those who believe in the resurrection are His". Even the demons believe in Jesus and the resurrection.
(Matt. 8:29, Mark 1:24, James 2:19).
Does this make the demons part of the Church? NOPE.

Remember what Jesus said:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Finall, Ron - we** ARE**** saved by faith - but not** the the easy believeism that you and many Protestants promote. What does St. Paul have to say about this in 1 Cor. 13**? He says:**
"So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love***."***

Notice he DOESN’T say that Faith is the greatest. ANY****one can believe but not everyone will "put their money where their mouth is", so to speak.

Faith is not only believing - it is** DOing the Lord’s will:**

DOing the Lord’s will** - Matt. 7:21-27
Confession - Matt. 16:19, Matt, 18:15-18, John 20:22-23
the Eucharist - ****Matt. 26:26-28,**John 6:31-71, 1 Cor. 11:23-26

You said the same thing I said only with different words.

 

[elvisman]

You said the same thing I said only with different words.

Huhhh?
Re-read your post. My reply to your post was as different as night and day.

You said:
"All those who believe in the resurrection are His."
****This is simply untrue and I pointed that out to you.

---

****Now that I read your post again, I see that it was flawed in some other ways. You said that Jesus came to ********simplify ****the Law - which is inaccurate.

---

He came to fulfill the Law, which he summed up in the 2 commandments of loving God (with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength) and loving your neighbor as yourself.**

---

---

Also, as I pointed out to you earlier - taking up your cross daily, dying to yourself, loving your enemies - none of this is simple. Following Christ is an all-encompassing love and humility. In many ways, it is more difficult that the Old Law.
Hardly simple, my friend.
*

 

[Rainman2]

That’s ridiculous, of course.

They have invoked faith in a personal authority, with personal guidance from the Holy Spirit. (Actually it’s more complicate than that but that’s what it boils down to.)

How can the Holy Spirit make 30,000+ mistakes? And if you include all the different personal interpretations, who knows how many more mistakes or how many times the Holy Spirit has mislead individuals?

 

[look3467]

How can the Holy Spirit make 30,000+ mistakes? And if you include all the different personal interpretations, who knows how many more mistakes or how many times the Holy Spirit has mislead individuals?

Is the Holy Spirit limited to just your understanding of who should be visited?
Or, is the Holy Spirit free to visit whom He wills?

Those are questions we should ask ourselves.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

How can the Holy Spirit make 30,000+ mistakes? And if you include all the different personal interpretations, who knows how many more mistakes or how many times the Holy Spirit has mislead individuals?

Perhaps that is the fundamental difference. I’m sure Protestants don’t believe that the Holy Spirit is the party at fault in the case of error, certainly I wouldn’t take that position.

If you envision Catholic theologeons as puppets on a string, then I suppose it would be natural to regard dogmatic error as a mistake by the Holy Spirit but does anyone really take that view?

If there is error it’s on the shoulders of humans.

 

[ron77nyc]

Huhhh?
**Re-read your post. My reply to your post was as different **as night and day.

You said:
"All those who believe in the resurrection are His."
******This is simply untrue and I pointed that out to you.

---

Here is what I wrote
“All those who believe in the resurrection are His. Belonging to the Church is not a free pass to heaven. God will gather His faithful from all denominations. He knows His sheep and His sheep know His voice”
I leave it to God to decide who is living obediently.

*Now that I read your post again, I see that it was *

flawed**** in some other ways. You said that Jesus came to ********simplify ****the Law - which is inaccurate.

---

He came to fulfill the Law, which he summed up in the 2 commandments of loving God (with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength) and loving your neighbor as yourself.**

---

---

Also, as I pointed out to you earlier - taking up your cross daily, dying to yourself, loving your enemies - none of this is simple. Following Christ is an all-encompassing love and humility. In many ways, it is more difficult that the Old Law.
Hardly simple, my friend.
*

We have the Holy Spirit in us doing what we cannot do for ourselves. That is something that was not available to the Old Testament believers. Jesus works within us to accomplish His will. Our work is to follow Him. If we follow Him we will be obeying the law.

 

[ron77nyc]

Finall, Ron - we** ARE**** saved by faith - but not** the the easy believeism that you and many Protestants promote. What does St. Paul have to say about this in 1 Cor. 13**? He says:**
"So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love***."***

Notice he DOESN’T say that Faith is the greatest. ANY****one can believe but not everyone will "put their money where their mouth is", so to speak.

Faith is not only believing - it is** DOing the Lord’s will:**

DOing the Lord’s will** - Matt. 7:21-27
Confession - Matt. 16:19, Matt, 18:15-18, John 20:22-23
the Eucharist - ****Matt. 26:26-28,**John 6:31-71, 1 Cor. 11:23-26

This is what I wrote

We are saved by faith and those who have faith will not continue to live in darkness.

It’s not easy believism. It’s just an easier way of saying what you said.

 

[elvisman]

Here is what I wrote
“All those who believe in the resurrection are His. Belonging to the Church is not a free pass to heaven. God will gather His faithful from all denominations. He knows His sheep and His sheep know His voice”
I leave it to God to decide who is living obediently.

We have the Holy Spirit in us doing what we cannot do for ourselves. That is something that was not available to the Old Testament believers. Jesus works within us to accomplish His will. Our work is to follow Him. If we follow Him we will be obeying the law.

That’s fine, but the belief that “All those who believe in the resurrection are His” is inaccurate. As I ponted out, even the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ and in the resurrection.

 

[jmcrae]

You make my case. If not the Catholic Church, than it is a no go.

You offer no solution other than the Catholic church.

When the solution is Christ, then worship as you see it.

Peace>>>AJ

If the Catholic Church is not true, then there is no Christ, since these other religions didn’t even come into existence until nearly 1500 years after the death of Christ. None of their founders had any first-hand experiences of Christ - absolutely everything they knew about Christ, they learned from the Catholic Church. But if the Catholic Church can be wrong on one point, then it can be wrong on every point, including the Bible, and including everything anybody believes about Jesus - the miracles, the Resurrection, the atonement on the Cross - all of these are teachings of the Catholic Church, which, if the Catholic Church is not infallible, then any one of those beliefs, or even all of them, could be wrong.

 

[ron77nyc]

That’s fine, but the belief that “All those who believe in the resurrection are His” is inaccurate. As I ponted out, even the demons believe that Jesus is the Christ and in the resurrection.

When I say, “All those who believe in the resurrection are His” I’m only making a distinction between those who believe in the resurrection and those who do not. Certainly I don’t include the demons and the rebellious with those who are saved.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

If the Catholic Church is not true, then there is no Christ, since these other religions didn’t even come into existence until nearly 1500 years after the death of Christ.

And if we can’t take drinks an airplanes then the terrorists have won.

None of their founders had any first-hand experiences of Christ - absolutely everything they knew about Christ, they learned from the Catholic Church. But if the Catholic Church can be wrong on one point, then it can be wrong on every point, including the Bible, and including everything anybody believes about Jesus - the miracles, the Resurrection, the atonement on the Cross - all of these are teachings of the Catholic Church, which, if the Catholic Church is not infallible, then any one of those beliefs, or even all of them, could be wrong.

Yes, absolutely correct. Now what? Just because the Catholic Church could be wrong doesn’t mean that it is wrong. Assuming could=is is what leads you to say that if the “If the Catholic Church is not true *, then there is no Christ.”

What ever happend to common sense?*

 

[jmcrae]

And if we can’t take drinks an airplanes then the terrorists have won.

Yes, absolutely correct. Now what? Just because the Catholic Church could be wrong doesn’t mean that it is wrong.

But you have no way of knowing whether it is, or not. None of us has a time machine, to go back in time and see whether St. Peter and the Apostles just made up the whole thing - the story of Christ, the requirements of the Sacraments, the order of the Mass - or whether (as the Catholic Church claims) they were witnesses of these things, and received the Tradition from Christ, and faithfully passed it on to their successors.

Assuming could=is is what leads you to say that if the "If the Catholic Church is not true , then there is no Christ."

It makes absolutely no sense to throw out part of the Tradition, but not the whole thing. If part of it is wrong, then what makes you think any of it could be true? After all, it was a heirarchical, conciliar, Mary-honouring, Saint-venertating, Eucharist worshipping, Latin-speaking Roman Catholic Church that came up with the very New Testament that you read. IF they were absolutely wrong about everything that they developed before the Bible, then how on earth do you know that they got the Bible right - not only right, but perfect.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

But you have no way of knowing whether it is, or not. None of us has a time machine, to go back in time and see whether St. Peter and the Apostles just made up the whole thing - the story of Christ, the requirements of the Sacraments, the order of the Mass - or whether (as the Catholic Church claims) they were witnesses of these things, and received the Tradition from Christ, and faithfully passed it on to their successors.

My argument is not with your faith but with your all-or-nothing approach to faith. As I’ve pointed out several times already, we make exactly these sorts of judgements all the time. (I make exactly the same argument in the other direction with atheists.)

It makes absolutely no sense to throw out part of the Tradition, but not the whole thing. If part of it is wrong, then what makes you think any of it could be true?

Because I’m not accusing them of lying. (What kind of farudsters would record their own cluelesness.)

Because, to a great extent, we have a record of their thoughts and arguments. We can lay them out and examine them.

After all, it was a heirarchical, conciliar, Mary-honouring, Saint-venertating, Eucharist worshipping, Latin-speaking Roman Catholic Church that came up with the very New Testament that you read.

Yes, correct.

IF they were absolutely wrong about everything that they developed before the Bible, then how on earth do you know that they got the Bible right - not only right, but perfect.

I don’t embrace the antecedent of your conditional. I don’t think that even atheists and satanists do.

 

[jmcrae]

My argument is not with your faith but with your all-or-nothing approach to faith. As I’ve pointed out several times already, we make exactly these sorts of judgements all the time. (I make exactly the same argument in the other direction with atheists.)

Because I’m not accusing them of lying. (What kind of farudsters would record their own cluelesness.)

Really clever ones?

Because, to a great extent, we have a record of their thoughts and arguments. We can lay them out and examine them.

What we have is the New Testament - which came from the Catholic Church. Which, if the Catholic Church was in the habit of inventing stuff out of thin air, isn’t any more reliable than the Mass, or the teachings on Mary, or the teachings on the Saints, or the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - all of which were being practiced and taught by the Church before the canon of the New Testament was developed. But if you say that the Mass is an invention of man, or that the teachings about Mary are heretical, then you have absolutely nothing to base your trust in the Bible on, since if they “invented” the Mass and the teachings on Mary, then what is to have prevented them from “inventing” the four Gospels and the Epistles of the New Testament?

I don’t embrace the antecedent of your conditional. I don’t think that even atheists and satanists do.

I’m having a hard time picturing atheists and satanists giving honour to Mary, or participating in the Mass.

 

[look3467]

If the Catholic Church is not true, then there is no Christ, since these other religions didn’t even come into existence until nearly 1500 years after the death of Christ. None of their founders had any first-hand experiences of Christ - absolutely everything they knew about Christ, they learned from the Catholic Church. But if the Catholic Church can be wrong on one point, then it can be wrong on every point, including the Bible, and including everything anybody believes about Jesus - the miracles, the Resurrection, the atonement on the Cross - all of these are teachings of the Catholic Church, which, if the Catholic Church is not infallible, then any one of those beliefs, or even all of them, could be wrong.

I don’t deny that the Catholic Church teaches all that you said and that he bible was complied by its founder.

What I am saying is that within the bible it’s self, we are able to find truth of the fact that Jesus died for our sins by which we may gain eternal life in Him.

That is an independent action, one on one, with God as you understand it as well, apart from any other thing or the Catholic Church.

The whole purpose of the human soul was autonomy.

Defined=The condition or quality of being autonomous; independence.

Independence is to be god like.

That action is what first alienated us from God, not by our will but His.
Would it not be fitting than that He (God) should take steps to remedy the situation?

Well, a blessing to us, He did just that in Jesus.

Now, we can be independent, yet saved at he some time, of which was not the case prior to Christ’ coming.

Having said all that, I present to you the omnipresent Holy Spirit who may inhabit not one, but many heart irrespective of what race, color, religion, country, one is.

If we were to say that only this group or that group had the only true access to God, than we would again be limiting God to what was before Christ , and that was to the Jews only.

But God’s work to deliver our alienation to again son ship, was given to us as a free gift, by He (God in Jesus) being our substitute in the condemnation of the autonomous condition first enacted by God.

That means that today’s autonomy is free from condemnation of alienation, but not free from our own miss management.

For what we sow, that shall we reap.

The New testament then is as a workable workbook by which we work to iron out our beliefs by understandings given by the Holy Spirits guidance.

Let me give a couple of scriptures references: Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

That last verse an only be accomplished by the works of the Holy Spirit presences in every soul

Peace>>AJ