The Invention of Catholicism?

[look3467]

Really? We’ve knew about the ‘Gospel of Thomas’ at least in the 4th century. It was decided not to allow it into the canon because it was consider a forgery (not from Thomas) and was very late in surfacing (2nd or 3rd century).

michel

Good, I give you a gold star!

My take? Is that it was someones opinion about what they thought about Jesus, yet with a message that changes not, and that being that a change in our thinking is required by a change of heart.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I’m sorry but did you really think that the Catholic Church didn’t know about these?

Did I think? No, I read the contents and based on my own gained knowledge I judge, as rightly so, for my judgment is backed up in scripture.

1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

peace>>>AJ

 

[cazayoux]

Good, I give you a gold star!

My take? Is that it was someones opinion about what they thought about Jesus, yet with a message that changes not, and that being that a change in our thinking is required by a change of heart.

Peace>>>AJ

I can see that.
The Gospel of Thomas, for all I know (which isn’t much), is a great accounting with no discernible error. However, it just was not considered by the church to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Pretty strict criteria for the canon … and I’m glad for it.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

The footnotes in my Bible say this about that passage.
(It’s the NAB edition)
Paul concludes his treatment of logical inconsistencies with a listing of miscellaneous Christian practices that would be meaningless if the resurrection were not a fact.

I agree … and my point to someone else is that we have the Catholic Church to help us in our understanding.
Someone might just read this verse and not listen to what the church has taught about it for almost 2000 years and start some practice (Mormons).

michel

 

[allhers]

Recently the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas were unearthed and there was great excitement about them.

Peace>>>AJ

I was speaking to you saying that they RECENTLY had been unearthed. I and others were pointing out to you that the Catholic Church knew about them long ago and that they were rejected a long time ago, that is why they aren’t included already.

 

[allhers]

I agree … and my point to someone else is that we have the Catholic Church to help us in our understanding.
Someone might just read this verse and not listen to what the church has taught about it for almost 2000 years and start some practice (Mormons).

michel

understood.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey there, coachstl; greetings in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ!!! I guess I could ask you the same question:what are you doing in this forum; oh never mind! To be perfectly honest, I was directed to this forum by Peggy Frye, when she couldn’t or chose not to answer my question about Mary(mother of Jesus)having other children. I , for one believe that she did; and I know that you believe she didn’t! So, without scriptural proof either way, I guess we could call it a draw! Rest assured that my purpose for being in this forum is not to attack catholics! But after a month here, I do feel that the catholic position is that disagreement +doubt on the part of non-caholics=hate and anger.Let me give you an example of this: in talking to a friend of mine who happens to be catholic, about confession, I stated that I didn’t feel the need, nor have I been directed by the Holy Spirit to seek the counsel of a mere mortal man to tell my sins to. He said, why do you hate the catholic church? I told him that I don’t hate any one or their church, it’s just that I have an Advocate, to confess my sins to. In the last three weeks, I have repented for and confessed four previously unconfessed sins, which the Holy Spirit put on my heart, one of them nearly 30 years old! I then shared them with my wife and the men in my Bible study. But I went to God in prayer first and confessed the sins to Him, and thanked Him for His forgiveness(1John 1:9). And when it comes to people attacking you or your church, try to remember Jesus Himself and His disciples; and the persecution they endured. Personally, I do not busy myself with petty things like what people think of me. Like the words of this beautiful Christian song say,"There’s a peace I’ve come to know, though my heart and flesh may fail. There’s an anchor for my soul, I can say, “it is well”. So, bottom line, is, I am much more content being a member of His(Jesus) Church, than being a member of his(pope’s) church!

 

[1beleevr]

I do believe without any doubt that the Holy Spirit is available and approachable to all who are in Christ Jesus! This is what the significance of the veil being torn from the top down; the Lord allowing us to enter the throne room of grace through prayer. And I do believe that Jesus gave each and every one us the privilege to have access to the Holy Spirit! I also believe that the Holy Spirit guides and leads us. He puts things on our hearts and helps us in times of trouble. Jesus’s death on the Cross put an end to the old covenant!

 

[cazayoux]

I stated that I didn’t feel the need, nor have I been directed by the Holy Spirit to seek the counsel of a mere mortal man to tell my sins to. …it’s just that I have an Advocate, to confess my sins to.

Actually, the Holy Spirit guided John, in his writing of the Gospel which is the guidance for you.
I know it’s a crazy idea to think that anyone other than God can forgive sins … but we can see from scripture that God did give that power to men.
It’s doesn’t say anything about those men, but it’s says worlds about our God.

John 20:21-23
[21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
[23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Why did Jesus give the power to forgive sins to men?
My view is that Jesus does things for a reason.
If they have make a decision to forgive or retain someones sins, first they’ll have to know what those sins are.
Now we know those he gave this power to were not psychic, so the normal means for this knowing would have to be a very normal means (hearing).

This scripture shows that God forgives sins … the way he does it was set up by Jesus in this very verse. So how is this scripture realized today in your church?

michel

 

[1beleevr]

Wow, cazayoux, what an eloquent and peaceful post! I have noticed over the month thatI have been in the forums, that the posts have quite a varity of tones! Some come across as angry and acuusatory, or condescending; so it is always nice to read one like yours. Another aspect of debate and discussion, is the fact that because of our humaness, we tend to interpret, or perceive things differently(one of the beautiful things about us all). Anyway, my point is; you and I and maybe 10 other people either read something or see something, and each one of us sees or reads the same thing, and yet, we don’t all necessarily see the same thing. What if, Jesus meant, if someone sins against you, you may choose to forgive them, or not! Who knows, who’s right and who’s wrong? Personally, I do not feel the need nor the desire to go to a priest, or even a pastor, and confess my sins! How do I know I can trust this “man”? Where I am at in my Christian walk, I am more attuned to impure thoughts and feelings, and when I recognize that they are wrong; I confess them to God, repent, and thank Him for His forgiveness!!! When Christ died on the Cross, He took care of all sin; past present and future. I have no problem with catholics who feel the need or obligation to go, what is it, weekly to confession. I’m just speaking for myself, in saying that I don’t need a human priest for confession. I have a Priest in the order of Melchizedek!

 

[trinitybeliever]

I don’t deny that the Catholic Church teaches all that you said and that he bible was complied by its founder.

What I am saying is that within the bible it’s self, we are able to find truth of the fact that Jesus died for our sins by which we may gain eternal life in Him.

That is an independent action, one on one, with God as you understand it as well, apart from any other thing or the Catholic Church.

The whole purpose of the human soul was autonomy.

Defined=The condition or quality of being autonomous; independence.

Independence is to be god like.

Peace>>AJ

Unfortunatly, there will be many who will have thier autonomy and independence from Christ’s church…FOR ETERNITY. Sad group.
:knight2::knight1:

 

[trinitybeliever]

… Who knows, who’s right and who’s wrong? Personally, I do not feel the need nor the desire to go to a priest, or even a pastor, and confess my sins! …:

Hello 1beleevr; Here is what Jesus has to say in Matthew 18;11-15

"11 "If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
15 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. "
Matthew 18: 11-15

What Church do you think Jesus is speaking of?

 

[ron77nyc]

Hello 1beleevr; Here is what Jesus has to say in Matthew 18;11-15

"11 "If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
15 Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. "
Matthew 18: 11-15

What Church do you think Jesus is speaking of?

He was talking about the Catholic Church when it was uncorrupted by absolute power and the love of money. Schisms occurred out of necessity. When the Church became worse than the gentiles and tax collectors of the apostolic times, people sought God without the help of the Church.

 

[dawid]

He was talking about the Catholic Church when it was uncorrupted by absolute power and the love of money. Schisms occurred out of necessity. When the Church became worse than the gentiles and tax collectors of the apostolic times, people sought God without the help of the Church.

That was a rather strange deduction albeit incorrect.

 

[ron77nyc]

That was a rather strange deduction albeit incorrect.

What do you mean by incorrect? “if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” In the apostolic era the Church backed up their authority with a holy life. In the middle ages there was widespread corruption. Who’s going to listen to someone who is corrupt?

 

[cazayoux]

Wow, cazayoux, what an eloquent and peaceful post! I have noticed over the month thatI have been in the forums, that the posts have quite a varity of tones! Some come across as angry and acuusatory, or condescending; so it is always nice to read one like yours. Another aspect of debate and discussion, is the fact that because of our humaness, we tend to interpret, or perceive things differently(one of the beautiful things about us all). Anyway, my point is; you and I and maybe 10 other people either read something or see something, and each one of us sees or reads the same thing, and yet, we don’t all necessarily see the same thing. What if, Jesus meant, if someone sins against you, you may choose to forgive them, or not! Who knows, who’s right and who’s wrong? Personally, I do not feel the need nor the desire to go to a priest, or even a pastor, and confess my sins! How do I know I can trust this “man”? Where I am at in my Christian walk, I am more attuned to impure thoughts and feelings, and when I recognize that they are wrong; I confess them to God, repent, and thank Him for His forgiveness!!! When Christ died on the Cross, He took care of all sin; past present and future. I have no problem with catholics who feel the need or obligation to go, what is it, weekly to confession. I’m just speaking for myself, in saying that I don’t need a human priest for confession. I have a Priest in the order of Melchizedek!

Your being so attuned to your shortcomings is something we should all strive for.
I hope you see that Catholics feel the need to go to confession to a priest because that is how we see that Jesus set up the normal method to receive forgiveness via John 20:21-23.
Yes, Jesus died for all of our sins for all time, but this does not mean all that have sinned are saved. Something is required of the individual, I think you agree.

i think asking for forgiveness involves several things:

• knowing you did wrong
• saying you did wrong
• being sorry for having done wrong
• apologizing for having done wrong
• promising not to do that wrong again

We are human and not always perfect at fulfilling all of this.
That doesn’t keep us from being sincere in the effort every time.
We all have sins that we have asked for forgiveness for more than once.

Read what I pray after confession:
O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.
It’s a beautify prayer.
Notice who the prayer is to.

Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to choose whether or not to forgive sins personally against the apostles.
We know in the Lord’s prayer that we ask God to ‘forgive us our sins as we forgive others’.
In your sense, if you choose not to forgive someone, then God will not forgive you.

I dont’ see that John 20:21-23 cannot be regarding the sins personally against the apostles.

You mentioned the frequency of confession.
We should go to confession when we have mortal sin on our soul.
At the beginning of mass, there is a portion where we consider our sins as a community and are forgiven them. This is in reference to what we call venial (non-mortal) sin.
While it may only be necessary to go to confession for mortal sin, it is a good practice to go to confession often even without mortal sin.
Keeping such a constant focus on ALL sin will help you to recognize sin in your life and even help to avoid the near occasion of sin.

I think we can fall into a trap if our sinful nature is hidden.
We can fool ourselves into thinking we have forgiveness even when we are not fully repentant.
Having a priest for guidance can help to keep us honest.

The forgiveness that a priest gives during confession has nothing to do with the trust or sinfulness or piety or impeccability of the priest.
We are a church of sinners, that is who Jesus came for.
My confessions is based on Jesus and the authority that He gave men to forgive sins.
You asked ‘how do i know i can trust this man’.
It’s not the man I trust, it’s Jesus.

Regarding tone in email and discussion groups.
I am guilty of getting a little aggravated every now and then, and I’m sure this comes through in some of my messages.
I always kick myself afterward for getting worked up.
I’m sad when I have, what I think is, a soft tone, and it’s read by others as having a bad tone.
It’s the paradigm of communication that we are in.
I try even harder to not read bad tone from others, just in case they didn’t ‘mean it’ that way.

Cheers, brother!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

What do you mean by incorrect? “if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” In the apostolic era the Church backed up their authority with a holy life. In the middle ages there was widespread corruption. Who’s going to listen to someone who is corrupt?

We are church of sinners.
Nobody is perfectly holy.

Let’s say your preacher of 20 years has taught you SO much and brought you closer to Christ.
Then you find out that for those 20 years he was in an adulterous relationship.
That doesn’t change his teachings on Christ that were invaluable to you.

I completely understand that it’s hard to listen to someone that seems to not follow their own teachings. We are human. We see a hypocrite and our ears close.

The authority of the apostles was not based on the piety of the apostles, but on the authority of Jesus.

Every apostles, save John, abandoned Jesus at the foot of the cross.
For this fault of theirs, do we ignore the apostles?
Of course not.
Even after Christ’s ascension, would you say the apostles were sinless.
I do not think they were sinless.
They taught authoritatively because Jesus made them authoritative teachers.
Jesus did not make them sinless.

michel

 

[ron77nyc]

We are church of sinners.
Nobody is perfectly holy.

Let’s say your preacher of 20 years has taught you SO much and brought you closer to Christ.
Then you find out that for those 20 years he was in an adulterous relationship.
That doesn’t change his teachings on Christ that were invaluable to you.

They taught authoritatively because Jesus made them authoritative teachers.
Jesus did not make them sinless.

michel

You are absolutely correct but here is what I’m saying. Here are 2 examples of the church in its beginning. The 2 big issues of sex and money. It was as serious as a heart attack.

Acts 5:1 A man named Ananias, however, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 He retained for himself, with his wife’s knowledge, some of the purchase price, took the remainder, and put it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.” 5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it. 6 The young men came and wrapped him up, then carried him out and buried him.
Footnotes
1 [1-11] The sin of Ananias and Sapphira did not consist in the withholding of part of the money but in their deception of the community. Their deaths are ascribed to a lie to the holy Spirit (Acts 5:3, 9), i.e., they accepted the honor accorded them by the community for their generosity, but in reality they were not deserving of it.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[cazayoux]

You are absolutely correct but here is what I’m saying. Here are 2 examples of the church in its beginning. The 2 big issues of sex and money. It was as serious as a heart attack.

Not sure I got the message.
I’m guessing you are saying that we are called to be a good example, a witness to our changed life in Christ.
Amen!!

This does not mean any of us are sinless.
It doesn’t mean that a great teacher, teaching with the teaching authority Jesus gave them, might not sin and lose their salvation and be lost.
The authoritative teaching is based on the sinlessness and authority of Jesus, not the sinful teacher.

I know the middle ages had MANY, MANY bad examples.
Thankfully, none of these bad examples tried to teach any of this bad behavior as doctrine.
As bad as some of these were, it seems supernatural that the teachings of the church were preserved. Almost like the Holy Spirit himself was protecting the teachings.

michel

 

[dawid]

What do you mean by incorrect? “if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” In the apostolic era the Church backed up their authority with a holy life. In the middle ages there was widespread corruption. Who’s going to listen to someone who is corrupt?

You are trying to force your idea onto this passage - the people, including the Apostles are not perfect, the Church and its Gospel is!