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1beleevr
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Hey, greggy53, I believe you described everyone(catholics included)when you talked about interpreting scripture to suit their agenda!
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1beleevr
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SteveGC: Spoken like a true catholic; not that I believe it all, but I have to admire your loyalty!
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Good_Fella
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The problem could be that you fail to comprehend the Scriptures which are hard to fully understand on our own (2 Pet 3:16). It is not up to private individuals like ourselves to interpret the Scriptures and define what the written word actually reveals as a divine truth. Jesus reserved that task for the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church (Acts 8: 26-31). It took the Church hierarchy not only to determine the list of canon but to condemn the unorthodox and heretical teachings of individual clerics like Arius, Nestorious, and Luther who presumed to be the final arbiters of divine truth in their private interpretations of Scripture. If we cannot trust the Church hierarchy and put our faith in a central apostolic teaching authority of the Church, then we cannot know with a certainty of faith whether any teaching is true in its definitive form regardless of what we personally choose to believe by referring to the Scriptures alone in a private capacity. To declare on the otherhand that the Scriptures are right and the Magisterium is wrong amounts to begging the question, for individuals aren’t a final authority on the written word, not having been graced with the charism of infallibilty and unable to know with certainty whether their interpretation is correct. And what it ultimately comes down to is the interpretation of Scripture which, by the way, is not the basis on which Church doctrines have ever been formed since apostolic time. Tradition precedes Scripture as a medium of divine revelation in the Church, both mediums constituting the Deposit of Faith. The Holy Spirit speaks to the Church what he hears. Our Lord assures his Apostles and their valid successors in the Episcopacy of the Church:
“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”
John 15, 16-18
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.”
John 16, 12-13
It is not the Bible or any private individual which is formally the final teaching authority in matters of faith and morals. Rather it is
…the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
1 Timothy 3, 15
" Now the cause…of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding the Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father of all things through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we must point out the ways of interpreting them which appear correct to us (the Episcopacy), who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles."
Origen (A.D. 230)
If you don’t trust the Church hierarchy then you can’t be sure whether any of the Scriptures you are reading aren’t apochryphal. The Bible doesn’t tell us which books should belong in the list of canonical texts. Pope Damasus l decreed the list of canon long before mediaeval time. And it wasn’t until then that the Church dogmatically declared the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist although it had always been an infallible teaching since apostolic time. The Holy Spirit who speaks to the Church isn’t constrained by time or influenced by the culture of a given historical period.
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you, and to show esteem for them with special love on account of their work.
*1 Thessalonians 5, 12-13 *
“Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed yet nothing exist among you that may divide you; but be ye united with your bishop, and those who preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality.”
Ignatius of Antioch (c.A.D.110)
PAX :harp:
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ron77nyc
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That’s the Catholic version. Why would a reformation begin if that is all that happened?
Here is the other side of the story:everythingimportant.org/theReformation/
The Roman Church had made merchandise of the grace of God. The tables of the money-changers (Matthew 21:12) were set up beside her altars, and the air resounded with the shouts of buyers and sellers. Under the plea of raising funds for the erection of St. Peter’s Church at Rome, indulgences for sin were publicly offered for sale by the authority of the pope. By the price of crime a temple was to be built up for God’s worship—the cornerstone laid with the wages of iniquity! But the very means adopted for Rome’s aggrandizement provoked the deadliest blow to her power and greatness. It was this that aroused the most determined and successful of the enemies of popery, and led to the battle which shook the papal throne and jostled the triple crown upon the pontiff’s head.
The official appointed to conduct the sale of indulgences in Germany—Tetzel by name—had been convicted of the basest offenses against society and against the law of God; but having escaped the punishment due for his crimes, he was employed to further the mercenary and unscrupulous projects of the pope. With great effrontery he repeated the most glaring falsehoods and related marvelous tales to deceive an ignorant, credulous, and superstitious people. Had they possessed the word of God they would not have been thus deceived. It was to keep them under the control of the papacy, in order to swell the power and wealth of her ambitious leaders, that the Bible had been withheld from them. (See John C. L. Gieseler, A Compendium of Ecclesiastical History, per. 4, sec. 1, par. 5
(Last paragraph)
The pope had threatened Luther with excommunication if he did not recant, and the threat was now fulfilled. A new bull appeared, declaring the Reformer’s final separation from the Roman Church, denouncing him as accursed of Heaven, and including in the same condemnation all who should receive his doctrines. The great contest had been fully entered upon.
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ron77nyc
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SteveGC
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And God Bless you for that nice response as well.Hey, SteveGC: Thanks for that enlightening response! And praise God that you have found your spot in the catholic church. As for myself, when reading your post, Phillipians 1:6 came to mind. Learning about who you are in Christ and d eepening your personal relationship with the same B-I-G God who spoke the universe into existence, is a lifelong journey; one which comes from fasting, praying, listening, and reading! Good points though; and being secure in my salvation and my final destination(Heaven) allow me to view Christian brothers and sisters with the love that God intended for me to share!!! God bless you.
I just wanted to further offer to you…that life-long aspect of our journey toward God, that deepening of personal relationship through prayer, fasting, listening and reading…that aspect doesn’t become diminished in The Church. On the contrary, I experienced an exponential growth in all those things as I entered into, and continue to explore within, the bosom of The Catholic Church. It really is hard to express. The spiritual treasures that await our separated brethren cannot be adequately defined by human words or thoughts. My dad, a loving man, a Christ-loving man, but unfortunately somewhat of an anti-Catholic, won’t talk to me much anymore about my faith journey, but he can’t help but notice an obvious positive Christian development in me. When it comes up, he mentions that he is so thankful that I have grown in Christ so much over the last couple years IN SPITE OF my Catholic tendencies. He doesn’t understand, and it’s so difficult to tell him, that it isn’t “in spite of”…it’s “because of”.
Now, I don’t speak for all Catholics…tragically so many of us are lukewarm, “cafeteria-style”, or worse. But you would be amazed at just how many more there are of us who can be described as I have above. In my experience, the difference is in “knowledge” or what we call “good catechesis” of what The Church is and teaches. And, in a very large sense, my assurance of salvation was not taken away as I came into The Church. It was just corrected to a perspective of it that fosters more growth in The Spirit.
God Bless
p.s. thanks again for the words you had regarding my previous post (post #870). If you have a chance, I’d still love to hear your responses to that series of questions. you can PM me if you want to keep it off this thread.
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greggy53
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Not everyone, just those who take it upon themselves to decide what any particular interpretation of scripture is. That is why Jesus established his Church, and gave her the authority to decide what teachings to use as scripture, and how they should be interpreted. It boils down to a lot of folks just having problems accepting the authority of our Lords Church.Hey, greggy53, I believe you described everyone(catholics included)when you talked about interpreting scripture to suit their agenda!
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greggy53
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Well, I can agree with some of that…The sex scandal in the Church upset me terribly. Especially when some Bishops were aware of the abuses of some priests, and didn’t stop it. Certainly an outrageous abuse of authority. I don’t agree that the Church has strayed from the teachings of the apostles. Individuals have for sure, and will continue to do so. But we need to rely on Jesus promise to us that the “Gates of Hell will not prevail against his Church.” you anger can be justified for sure…hang in there.
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dawid
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…now does this make the Church, its sacred Traditions and its Gospel null and void?
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greggy53
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That’s right! When I think of how they (the so-called reformers) have gone to extremes trashing the Sacraments. Talk about throwing the baby out with the wash!
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ron77nyc
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Thank you and thanks for your own personal testimony to 1beleevr. It’s very encouraging.
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ron77nyc
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Not at all. It just destroys the integrity and image of the Church.
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The_GreyPilgrim
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So IOW you, and many other Protestants, feel that you’re so pious and saintly that you can stand in judgement of that Church?
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ron77nyc
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First of all I’m not a protestant and I’m not pious and saintly. The thread is The Invention of Catholicism. It’s the the Church’s evolution into something that wasn’t in the original plan. I’m just bringing out those areas that are relative to the subject.
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Bubba_Switzler
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Just to be precise, I’ve raised the issue of evolution here without comment on whether it was “in the original plan” or not. I’ve left that secondary question open.
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The_GreyPilgrim
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What about the Church wasn’t in God’s plan?
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ron77nyc
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I didn’t say that but I did say that Jesus did not want people to learn a religious system rather He wanted people to know Him meaning that He didn’t want a system of rules and laws to replace Him.
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greggy53
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Then why did he establish a Church?
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ron77nyc
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To preach the gospel, to teach sound doctrine, to forgive sins and to worship God. All for the purpose of keeping us united to God.
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greggy53
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And what you are saying is that our 'religious system" doesn’t do those things?
And if not when did it cease being 'his church", or was it ever?
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