The Invention of Catholicism?

[ron77nyc]

And what you are saying is that our 'religious system" doesn’t do those things?
And if not when did it cease being 'his church", or was it ever?

It happens whenever God is thrown out. A monsignor once told my father: “Jesus is not the head of this church, I am.”
I already wrote about this earlier in the thread. I grew up in a religious system. For a very long time, I don’t know exactly how long, the Church turned it into a system. We had the pope who was Christ on earth, we had the sacraments, we had mass and confession. All you had to do was keep going to mass and confession and you didn’t need faith. Many of the clergy had no faith. It was just a job and we all had to do it.

 

[greggy53]

I too grew up in the Catholic religious system, and knew priests who did not conduct themselves properly. But our monsignor was not one of them. Though he was stern, and somber, he set an excellent example for us all (Grant him eternal rest oh Lord, and let your perpetual light shine upon him!). I also knew priests who were wonderful to us and the love they shared I still feel. Many people have had bad experiences in the church. I have a brother-in law that to this day has nightmares about the nuns that taught us as children. He has spent a life time rebelling against the authority they represented. I also was treated in a manner that by todays standards would be considered stern, and unyielding, but by God’s mercy and grace I see that what they gave us children was Love, tough love to be sure, but everything the good sisters of the IHM did for us they did out of love and dedication to us. They sacrificed their lives, and livelihoods for our betterment. God love them all!

 "As a boy I was taught in our Catholic school
  That the road to peace and joy of Heaven
  Was paved by nuns with a thousand rules
  Strict adherence required by boys of seven."

  "God bless those ladies for their gentle yolk
    And I did my best but never knew why
    On the road to paradise one had to choke
    Each day by wearing a shirt and tie!"

 

[jake23]

I am saddeded for the protestants who come on here to bash christs church with pridefull and vain assumptions of biblical verses. I pray that youre hate and judgement will be replaced with love and truth. this sight is to answer your questions which have been done, it is not for argument and debate. We catholics are saved and there is nothing else for us to consider. I myself found the truth of the catholic faith as a past protestant journeying for the truth and I hope the same outcome for you, but do not come here to disrespect us and manipulate scripture! it is not christ like! I will pray for all of you!

 

[Good_Fella]

As I’ve said before: The early church (I’m estimating the first 3 centuries) hadn’t taken the liberties that were taken later on with their God given authority to rule over people with an iron fist. The early church was trustworthy and their interpretation of scripture could be trusted. I have no problem understanding the Word of God. I’ve been to many bible studies both Catholic and Protestant.

The Church today revealed its medieval character when they admitted wrong doing (sex scandal) only under compulsion by outside authorities. Then they took a major player in the cover up (Egan) and put him out in front to represent the Church.

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the Church ruling with an iron fist. Are we talking about moral teachings concerning abortion, divorce, euthanasia, and pre-marital sex or power politics in the Roman curia during the middle ages?

And since when can the Church hierarchy no longer be trusted when interpreting the Scriptures, since the 5th century or mediaeval time? You don’t seem to be sure.

What does the scandal in the USA have to do with the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church? Your concern is a matter of internal discipline in the province of the American Bishops, not universal teaching.

Perhaps your practice of studying the Bible with non-Catholics is warping your conception of the Church.

PAX :harp:

 

[1beleevr]

Greggy53: Perhaps you should read Matthew 7:1-5!

 

[1beleevr]

SteveGC: Reading your posts, I am reminded why I don’t paint all catholics with the same broad brush Although I have had many negative contacts with catholics over the years(and other religions, too) I, because of the peace of Christ, am able to look at and treat everyone as an individual, and not judge them by the company they keep, so to speak! It sounds to me like you have had quite an interesting spiritual journey, and have finally found your spot! I do believe in the old saying,“bloom where you are planted”, and for me that has been in Baptist, and now non-denominational churches. I accepted Jesus as my Saviour, on May 15, 1967, and was, of course, quite naive about things Biblical and spiritual! My mother has been an incredible example to me of what a Christian looks like. She is the widow who gave two mites, Mary(of Martha and Mary), and a tireless servant for her God. Like many of us I have stumbled through my Christian walk, and spent what I call “dark periods” away from my Lord! But I know that no one or no thing can pluck me from His hand, and He does not mark my iniquities(Hallelujah!). What has really illuminated, and energized my walk, is serving(Mark 10:45). I do street ministry, go on short-term missions trips, and facilitate a ministry(singing and a bit of the Word) at a nursing home where my beautiful mother(one of God’s most faithful servants) now lives! So, please believe that I have the utmost respect for everybody’s spiritual beliefs, political postions, etc, it’s just that I was raised differently(not wrongly), and have a very curious mind And after 42 years as a noncatholic Christian, I don’t see why I would convert; no incentive. And I don’t mind you guys referring to me as a separated brother, because ther will be no divisions in Heaven, just His followers(believers) worshipping Him for eternity. Besides, I may be separated from your church, but I am not separated from my God:thumbsup:In His service

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the Church ruling with an iron fist. Are we talking about moral teachings concerning abortion, divorce, euthanasia, and pre-marital sex or power politics in the Roman curia during the middle ages?

And since when can the Church hierarchy no longer be trusted when interpreting the Scriptures, since the 5th century or mediaeval time? You don’t seem to be sure.

I don’t have to be sure. I wasn’t there when it happened but I had to live with it when I got here. Early Christians had a high moral standard and detachment from wordly posessions. It was part of the original Catholic faith. I don’t know the exact date that it became an optional choice for church leadership and it’s not necessary to know exactly. It’s just obvious that the Church went downhill since then.

What does the scandal in the USA have to do with the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church? Your concern is a matter of internal discipline in the province of the American Bishops, not universal teaching.

I think my perception is accurate. Perversion and deception are not virtues.

 

[cazayoux]

I don’t have to be sure. I wasn’t there when it happened but I had to live with it when I got here. Early Christians had a high moral standard and detachment from wordly posessions. It was part of the original Catholic faith. I don’t know the exact date that it became an optional choice for church leadership and it’s not necessary to know exactly. It’s just obvious that the Church went downhill since then.

You had better know when.
You HAVE to be able to draw that line so that you can follow what the Catholic church did before that line and not afterward.

You’ll have a problem, though.
No matter when you draw that line there are things before it that are distinctly Catholic.
There are things after that line that you follow.

Your arrogance and disdain shown in that post is blatant.
I don’t see the Christian love in your heart that you would say identifies the church.

Here so long … and still have learned so little.
It’s truly shameful that you would stoop to something so juvenile.

michel

 

[ron77nyc]

Your arrogance and disdain shown in that post is blatant.
I don’t see the Christian love in your heart that you would say identifies the church.

Here so long … and still have learned so little.
It’s truly shameful that you would stoop to something so juvenile.

michel

It’s not arrogance and disdain. It’s a yearning for truth and a response to another snobbish attack on something I posted. Look at this nonsensical rubbish.

What does the scandal in the USA have to do with the Apostolic teaching authority of the Church? Your concern is a matter of internal discipline in the province of the American Bishops, not universal teaching.

Perhaps your practice of studying the Bible with non-Catholics is warping your conception of the Church.

The scandal was in the US but the hierarchy in Rome kept it rolling along. We are supposed to say: “Well, that’s OK because the teaching authority still teaches the truth.”
And then he tells me that my perception is warped.

 

[dawid]

It’s not arrogance and disdain. It’s a yearning for truth and a response to another snobbish attack on something I posted. Look at this nonsensical rubbish.

The scandal was in the US but the hierarchy in Rome kept it rolling along. We are supposed to say: “Well, that’s OK because the teaching authority still teaches the truth.”
And then he tells me that my perception is warped.

This thread has drifted from its theme - your subject should be the subject of a new thread.

However, it is true that some of the people in the Church hierarchy failed to act admirably to resolve the scandal.

I believe that the holy Father did address the victims when he visited the US.
There are many in the Church, both clergy and lay, that lead good lives, act in an exemplary manner and help victims of abuses.

I would also urge you to consider that the clergy would be under great assault by Satan who would do his utmost to weaken the Church.

Please pray with us for the Church in general and the clergy in particular.

If you were a victim of the abuses, I urge all to specifically pray for you.

 

[Seeking12]

I am saddeded for the protestants who come on here to bash christs church with pridefull and vain assumptions of biblical verses. I pray that youre hate and judgement will be replaced with love and truth. this sight is to answer your questions which have been done, it is not for argument and debate. We catholics are saved and there is nothing else for us to consider. I myself found the truth of the catholic faith as a past protestant journeying for the truth and I hope the same outcome for you, but do not come here to disrespect us and manipulate scripture! it is not christ like! I will pray for all of you!

How do you know you and other Catholics are saved? What do you base that on? Quite a claim; there are many Catholics in this forum that would disagree with you on that statement.

 

[Seeking12]

I don’t have to be sure. I wasn’t there when it happened but I had to live with it when I got here. Early Christians had a high moral standard and detachment from wordly posessions. It was part of the original Catholic faith. I don’t know the exact date that it became an optional choice for church leadership and it’s not necessary to know exactly. It’s just obvious that the Church went downhill since then.

Since the bible is a catholic book and it is divinely inspired teaching why doesn’t the Church follow its own teaching?

1 It is actually reported that** there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles**, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here we have adult consentual sex that is an abomination. What would they think about pedophiles in the Church? From this reading; would they send the guilty to another parish?

I think my perception is accurate. Perversion and deception are not virtues.

People are fallen; part of our nature. When you put men in positions that are unnatural to the order that God created; you will breed a greater perversion than what society already produces. Like any other sin; the more it abounds the more sin breeds; resulting in cover up and lies and many hurt lives. This is nothing new; this has been going on for centuries, but with the media we have today it is appears more prevalent, but nothing has changed and it will not change because we are talking about unregenerate fallen humans.

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

i read alot of the replies here and it seems to me that people whether catholic or not are not working for the Good.but instead are drunk with their own arrogance and unwillingness to listen and accept that sometimes we can differ.instead of this being a meaningful debate that should draw 1 closer to Christ i find im embarressed to call myself Christian.Because what is happening is not Christian…people are making up things and making a mockery of Gods holy word and of denying history.
peodophilia is not only inthe catholic church neither is homosexuality.our church is full of sin and disgust.but may i remind you that it is for this reason that Jesus came.that while we were still sinners Christ died for us…and of the cover ups etc…there is no excuse.but all these evils do not take from us(the Church) any of Gods promises given to us by Christ through His Holy Spirit.

 

[WAYNE_LEYDS]

How do you know you and other Catholics are saved? What do you base that on? Quite a claim; there are many Catholics in this forum that would disagree with you on that statement.

well how do you know that we are not saved?it is by faith in Jesus Christ and our hope in His promises that we believe we are Saved.

 

[Rainman2]

First of all I’m not a protestant and I’m not pious and saintly. The thread is The Invention of Catholicism. It’s the the Church’s evolution into something that wasn’t in the original plan. I’m just bringing out those areas that are relative to the subject.

I have a question. What is the theory about who “invented” Catholicism?

 

[ron77nyc]

I have a question. What is the theory about who “invented” Catholicism?

Just to be precise, I’ve raised the issue of evolution here without comment on whether it was “in the original plan” or not. I’ve left that secondary question open.

 

[cazayoux]

I have a question. What is the theory about who “invented” Catholicism?

Here’s my theory.
JESUS !

michel

 

[1beleevr]

Cazayoux: Easyto say, not so easy to believe! I’m not so sure Jesus invented any of the organized religions! He showed love, mercy, and kindness; qualities not always evident among Christians! It wouldbe, and probably is easy for any group of people, who form a religious sect, to say,“Jesus founded our church”! I am so glad that I do not get tied up in all that political chaos, about who founded what. Jesus did not say, "upon this Rock, I will build the catholic church; he said, My Church! I interpret this, after many years of study, and soul-searching to mean, all of us who follw Him, and do our best to follow His commandments!

 

[cazayoux]

Cazayoux: Easyto say, not so easy to believe! I’m not so sure Jesus invented any of the organized religions! He showed love, mercy, and kindness; qualities not always evident among Christians! It would be, and probably is easy for any group of people, who form a religious sect, to say,“Jesus founded our church”! I am so glad that I do not get tied up in all that political chaos, about who founded what. Jesus did not say, "upon this Rock, I will build the catholic church; he said, My Church! I interpret this, after many years of study, and soul-searching to mean, all of us who follw Him, and do our best to follow His commandments!

Sorry … but my years of study and soul-searching lead me to a different understanding.

Jesus founded ONE church

Matt 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
(Peter is the kepha upon which Christ builds His church) … not churches

**Acts 4:32 **
The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.

1 Cor 1:10
agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you

Jesus established an authoritative church

John 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 18:37
“…Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

John 17:17
“Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth.”

We need to KNOW the truth … where do we find it?

1 Tim 3:15
the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
(What IS the pillar and foundation of truth? … not the bible, but the church)

Matt 18:15-17
… If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.
This also means we need to be able to FIND that church. It cannot be an invisible church.

Eph 1:22-23
…the church, which is his body
The church is the fullness of Christ, his body

Eph 5:23
Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body

Remember that the bible has authority BECAUSE the church has authority.
What came first, the church or the bible?
THE CHURCH.

Jesus established a visible church

John 17:20-23
that the world may know … that they may see

If it was an invisible church, how would we go to it to resolve issues? It had to be a church that we could go to to KNOW the truth.

michel

 

[Seeking12]

well how do you know that we are not saved?it is by faith in Jesus Christ and our hope in His promises that we believe we are Saved.

I don’t know if you are saved or not; I do not know what your beliefs are or to whom they are in. I hope you have received the gospel and the person of Christ.