The issue of gay intolerance

[Lynxdk]

Jesus specifically spoke against perversion in the New Testament, not sure of the verse. Also, Paul goes into it in depth in Romans chapter 1 and then in Hebrews. I would suggest reading these.

Homosexuality is not a perversion, and Jesus never said a word against it. You might wanna take another look yourself =)

The stuff in Romans Paul talks about is sexual practices involving fertility gods and goddesses, again, ~not~ about homosexuality. I’ll point you back to Romans, 2 though, and what’s said there about judging. The sin you see is the sin you own. Work that one out for yourself, because it’s ~your~ sin that you see and try to stop other people from doing, not theirs. What they do is for God, and God alone, to judge.

What in Hebrews? I don’t think I’ll have time to read through it till the weekend, but I’m sure I can point out the misunderstanding there as well… There are good reasons not to pick up this sort of argument with me, so I really don’t want to keep going ~laughs~ I just can’t help myself sometimes

The biggest problem here, really, is you’re ~never, Ever~ going to be able to convince people that the way they are is not right with God, because they ~already know~ it is, even if you think differently. You can’t stop what is inevitable when God is on their side too, and it serves ~no one~ when we keep pushing each other away like this.

 

[Lynxdk]

However, He gives us free will, so it’s up to us to change the law and speak out about it…with His help, of course.

Funny… that’s ~exactly~ what I’m doing, with God’s help, to change the laws to make sure homosexuals are allowed state sanctioned, contractual, partnerships, equal under the laws to what currently is only allowed between a male and a female, when it should be allowed for other such loving couples, regardless of race, creed, colour, etc… It’s the ~spirit~ of the law, not the words of it, that are meant to be taken seriously, so to with the Laws of God. Jesus said so =P

 

[ladybri77]

Homosexuality is not a perversion, and Jesus never said a word against it. You might wanna take another look yourself =)

The stuff in Romans Paul talks about is sexual practices involving fertility gods and goddesses, again, ~not~ about homosexuality. I’ll point you back to Romans, 2 though, and what’s said there about judging. The sin you see is the sin you own. Work that one out for yourself, because it’s ~your~ sin that you see and try to stop other people from doing, not theirs. What they do is for God, and God alone, to judge.

What in Hebrews? I don’t think I’ll have time to read through it till the weekend, but I’m sure I can point out the misunderstanding there as well… There are good reasons not to pick up this sort of argument with me, so I really don’t want to keep going ~laughs~ I just can’t help myself sometimes

The biggest problem here, really, is you’re ~never, Ever~ going to be able to convince people that the way they are is not right with God, because they ~already know~ it is, even if you think differently. You can’t stop what is inevitable when God is on their side too, and it serves ~no one~ when we keep pushing each other away like this.

I wish people would stop saying we’re judging homosexuals. That’s just not true. We are juding the SIN. Love the sinner, hate the sin, that’s what most Christians, including myself are all about. If you read my post to the other poster, I explain what my “sin” is/was, meaning I also have struggled with SSA but choose to live a celibate lifestyle.

Oh no? Homosexuality is not a perversion? Since when can two males or two females produce children? Anything that goes against God’s natural design for man is a perversion.

Please don’t twist scripture around to justify your point. The book of Leviticus is also another one which speaks against homosexuality. And let’s not forget Sodom and Gomorrha.

This kind of sin and all sin harm and potentially destroy people. We need to get the truth about it out because it harms one spiritually, emotionally and physically, and we need to be loving and compassionate to gay people (since that’s what they really need so much) so that they will hopefully come to Christ.

 

[ladybri77]

Funny… that’s ~exactly~ what I’m doing, with God’s help, to change the laws to make sure homosexuals are allowed state sanctioned, contractual, partnerships, equal under the laws to what currently is only allowed between a male and a female, when it should be allowed for other such loving couples, regardless of race, creed, colour, etc… It’s the ~spirit~ of the law, not the words of it, that are meant to be taken seriously, so to with the Laws of God. Jesus said so =P

Marriage in God’s eyes will always be a man and a woman, true marriage that is. Does God love the homosexual? Very much which is why He wants His best for them, and being gay is not His best for them. Believe me, I know. God has revealed many Truths about homosexuality to me through my experience with it. He’s also shown me the Truth of His Word, and I have accepted it.

 

[zachforn]

… so it’s up to us to change the law and speak out about it…

My question still remains unanswered, what right do you have to speak out against someone else’s sin, when you yourself are living in sin?

How come you don’t try to stop laws that allow the legal production of petroleum, or plastics, of the mining and production of the specialty metals inside our computers? How Come? These things, YOUR choice to use these sorts of products (and so much more) causes suffering and death (again, research it to find out), so how come you don’t try to outlaw these sorts of things, because your choice to use them, to perpetuate mortal sin, is just as bad as any other choice to perpetuate mortal sin. Don’t you get that?

Here’s why I think you don’t: Because that means YOU have to change YOUR life, and that would be uncomfortable for YOU. You are comfortable in your understanding of Sin. You are comfortable with speaking out against others’ sins, rather than speaking out against your sins.

It’s fantastic that you say “yes, I live in sin.” But that’s not a get-out-of-jail-free card. So what do you do to change your mortal sinful life? What do you do to stop making choices that lead to mortal sins? Huh?

 

[Lynxdk]

I wish people would stop saying we’re judging homosexuals. That’s just not true. We are juding the SIN. Love the sinner, hate the sin, that’s what most Christians, including myself are all about. If you read my post to the other poster, I explain what my “sin” is/was, meaning I also have struggled with SSA but choose to live a celibate lifestyle.

Oh no? Homosexuality is not a perversion? Since when can two males or two females produce children? Anything that goes against God’s natural design for man is a perversion.

Please don’t twist scripture around to justify your point. The book of Leviticus is also another one which speaks against homosexuality. And let’s not forget Sodom and Gomorrha.

I’m not the one twisting scripture, you are, Especially if you’re going to bring Leviticus into it, and wave Sodom and Gomorrha around like a banner…

but that’s why I should just step out for real now, because even if you read all those words again, you’ll just keep doing with with something in your eye, and not see what was really said, if you ever actually read them for yourself in the first place, that is… most people don’t, and they let other people tell them what it means instead.

Have a good day =)

 

[Lynxdk]

He’s also shown me the Truth of His Word, and I have accepted it.

Me too =) I wonder why he told me differently…

 

[ladybri77]

My question still remains unanswered, what right do you have to speak out against someone else’s sin, when you yourself are living in sin?

How come you don’t try to stop laws that allow the legal production of petroleum, or plastics, of the mining and production of the specialty metals inside our computers? How Come? These things, YOUR choice to use these sorts of products (and so much more) causes suffering and death (again, research it to find out), so how come you don’t try to outlaw these sorts of things, because your choice to use them, to perpetuate mortal sin, is just as bad as any other choice to perpetuate mortal sin. Don’t you get that?

Here’s why I think you don’t: Because that means YOU have to change YOUR life, and that would be uncomfortable for YOU. You are comfortable in your understanding of Sin. You are comfortable with speaking out against others’ sins, rather than speaking out against your sins.

It’s fantastic that you say “yes, I live in sin.” But that’s not a get-out-of-jail-free card. So what do you do to change your mortal sinful life? What do you do to stop making choices that lead to mortal sins? Huh?

How am I “living” in sin. I told you I’ve turned from the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. Do I sin once in awhile like everyone else, yes, but I’ve turned away from the harmful lifestyle of homosexuality. I’m not living a lifestyle of sin.

I pray, go to confession, Mass, spend time with God, don’t dwell on a lustful thought if it happens to come into my head. That’s how I try not to make choices that lead to mortal sin. Am I perfect with this? No.

I would certainly vote for legislation to stop dumping or air pollution, etc. So while they haven’t outlawed computers, (and by me not using one wouldn’t ban them), I’ll use them because nothing I could do would stop the use of these plastics. People would want them, etc. I could only pray about the limiting of these. The same thing with gay marriage, I could vote for legislation to stop it and talk to my lawmakers, but it would probably not stop it. Believe it or not, I do see your point.

 

[ladybri77]

I’m not the one twisting scripture, you are, Especially if you’re going to bring Leviticus into it, and wave Sodom and Gomorrha around like a banner…

but that’s why I should just step out for real now, because even if you read all those words again, you’ll just keep doing with with something in your eye, and not see what was really said, if you ever actually read them for yourself in the first place, that is… most people don’t, and they let other people tell them what it means instead.

Have a good day =)

Black is black and white is white, that’s what Roman’s and all the other scriptures refer to - Absolute truth, not relative truth. Sorry but that’s just the way it is.

May God Bless you, Lynx!

 

[zachforn]

How am I “living” in sin. I told you I’ve turned from the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. Do I sin once in awhile like everyone else, yes, but I’ve turned away from the harmful lifestyle of homosexuality. I’m not living a lifestyle of sin.

I pray, go to confession, Mass, spend time with God, don’t dwell on a lustful thought if it happens to come into my head. That’s how I try not to make choices that lead to mortal sin. Am I perfect with this? No.

I would certainly vote for legislation to stop dumping or air pollution, etc. So while they haven’t outlawed computers, (and by me not using one wouldn’t ban them), I’ll use them because nothing I could do would stop the use of these plastics. People would want them, etc. I could only pray about the limiting of these. The same thing with gay marriage, I could vote for legislation to stop it and talk to my lawmakers, but it would probably not stop it. Believe it or not, I do see your point.

My point is you can STOP using petroleum based products, stop using plastics, stop using computers, STOP using all the other products that you use that cause suffering and death in the world, STOP being a mortal sinner. That’s my point. You could if you wanted, and that is the issue: You don’t want to.

Yes, of course, they wouldn’t ban computers or some of the plastics or metals used in the computers if YOU stopped using them, but YOU would no longer be taking part in a system that brings suffering to others, YOU would no longer be a mortal sinner for your participation in such a system.

That’s my point.

 

[ladybri77]

My point is you can STOP using petroleum based products, stop using plastics, stop using computers, STOP using all the other products that you use that cause suffering and death in the world, STOP being a mortal sinner. That’s my point. You could if you wanted, and that is the issue: You don’t want to.

Yes, of course, they wouldn’t ban computers or some of the plastics or metals used in the computers if YOU stopped using them, but YOU would no longer be taking part in a system that brings suffering to others, YOU would no longer be a mortal sinner for your participation in such a system.

That’s my point.

Are you going to practice what you preach? You using a computer right now?

And we could stop using all earth’s raw materials. Is that practical or even possible? Think you’re carrying this a little too far…

 

[zachforn]

Are you going to practice what you preach? You using a computer right now?

And we could stop using all earth’s raw materials. Is that practical or even possible? Think you’re carrying this a little too far…

Yes, I also use plastics and oil, however I don’t hark on homosexuality. You do. You call them mortal sinners and attempt to stop them with laws, etc, Why not attempt to stop yourself for a change.

Are you kidding me, do you think the entire world lives like your Average American? Yes, it is possible to live off the grid, it happens all over the world (and in the U.S. too!). Yes, it is possible to assure that products you buy or make do not bring suffering and death onto others. Yes, it is possible. It’s HARD, it’s DRAINING, it’s UNCOMFORTABLE, but Faith isn’t suppose to be Easy and Comfortable, who told you it was?

You are too comfortable in your faith, you enjoy using products that lead to the suffering and death of innocent people. Don’t focus this arguement on me, that’s the easy way out, focus it on yourself.

 

[ladybri77]

Yes, I also use plastics and oil, however I don’t hark on homosexuality. You do. You call them mortal sinners and attempt to stop them with laws, etc, Why not attempt to stop yourself for a change.

Are you kidding me, do you think the entire world lives like your Average American? Yes, it is possible to live off the grid, it happens all over the world (and in the U.S. too!). Yes, it is possible to assure that products you buy or make do not bring suffering and death onto others. Yes, it is possible. It’s HARD, it’s DRAINING, it’s UNCOMFORTABLE, but Faith isn’t suppose to be Easy and Comfortable, who told you it was?

You are too comfortable in your faith, you enjoy using products that lead to the suffering and death of innocent people. Don’t focus this arguement on me, that’s the easy way out, focus it on yourself.

Okay, I won’t speak out against evil and the increasing spread of it in our society. I won’t be concerned for my children being forced to do things they don’t want to do nor live up to my moral obligation to stop the destruction of moral America. I’ll just sit back and let it all come to pass. Is that what you want? I already know my sins and have shared one of the past ones with you. I won’t defend myself any further about this.

We all have a tendency toward one cause or another, that doesn’t make the other one less. We do our best in thae other area as well. I have a strong feeling about moral decay, you have one for the destruction of the environment, nothing wrong with that.

Aren’t we all united in some way? As you said, the actions of one can affect many. So, I can correct my brother when he sins for his own good.

Yes, faith certainly is hard. How do you know I don’t do my part in preserving the environment? Do you know what I do or don’t do?

 

[zachforn]

Okay, I won’t speak out against evil and the increasing spread of it in our society. I won’t be concerned for my children being forced to do things they don’t want to do nor live up to my moral obligation to stop the destruction of moral America. I’ll just sit back and let it all come to pass. Is that what you want? I already know my sins and have shared one of the past ones with you. I won’t defend myself any further about this.

That’s a single sin. I’m not asking you to defend that to me, it sounds like you have worked through that one particular mortal sin. Good for you, seriously.

But, you are still performing mortal sins now, by participating in the modern American culture. I have no solutions for you. You can go live the mountains with your kids, build a cabin, hunt your own food, etc . That is a possibility. It’s a hard, difficult one, but it certainly is a possibility. It is one solution to getting out of the system of mortal sin.

It’s tough trying to find the way to God, you know this with what you’ve already experienced. I have no solutions for you.

Yes, faith certainly is hard. How do you know I don’t do my part in preserving the environment? Do you know what I do or don’t do?

I know that right now you are on a computer. I know your computer contains cadmium, copper, beryllium, barium, along with a whole assortment of other dangerous compounds and metals. I know these metals were mined by cheap laborers using minimum (if any) safety precautions. I know that some of these workers breathed in trace amounts of these metals and compounds and developed varying sickness, some leading to death. I know that you toss plastic into the trash. I know that trash is either burned, producing dioxins, or it’s buried, bleeding various poisonous synthetic material into the ground, eventually contaminating water sources and farming land. I know that people breath in the dioxins or ingest the poison, and become yet one more statistic in our epidemic of cancer.

 

[ladybri77]

That’s a single sin. I’m not asking you to defend that to me, it sounds like you have worked through that one particular mortal sin. Good for you, seriously.

But, you are still performing mortal sins now, by participating in the modern American culture. I have no solutions for you. You can go live the mountains with your kids, build a cabin, hunt your own food, etc . That is a possibility. It’s a hard, difficult one, but it certainly is a possibility. It is one solution to getting out of the system of mortal sin.

It’s tough trying to find the way to God, you know this with what you’ve already experienced. I have no solutions for you.

I know that right now you are on a computer. I know your computer contains cadmium, copper, beryllium, barium, along with a whole assortment of other dangerous compounds and metals. I know these metals were mined by cheap laborers using minimum (if any) safety precautions. I know that some of these workers breathed in trace amounts of these metals and compounds and developed varying sickness, some leading to death. I know that you toss plastic into the trash. I know that trash is either burned, producing dioxins, or it’s buried, bleeding various poisonous synthetic material into the ground, eventually contaminating water sources and farming land. I know that people breath in the dioxins or ingest the poison, and become yet one more statistic in our epidemic of cancer.

If this is the case, then why are you doing all these things?

 

[zachforn]

If this is the case, then why are you doing all these things?

As I mentioned in post #290, I’m not the one harking on other people’s mortal sins. You are. and others in this thread are.

 

[ladybri77]

Okay, I won’t speak out against evil and the increasing spread of it in our society. I won’t be concerned for my children being forced to do things they don’t want to do nor live up to my moral obligation to stop the destruction of moral America. I’ll just sit back and let it all come to pass. Is that what you want? I already know my sins and have shared one of the past ones with you. I won’t defend myself any further about this.

If I didn’t care about other people, society or my children, I wouldn’t speak out against the worsening moral decay of our society and gay marriage, but I know the consequence of such.

Sometimes I think I just have to relax because it’s in God’s hands anyway. No matter what happens, it’s in His hands…

 

[CWBetts]

As I mentioned in post #290, I’m not the one harking on other people’s mortal sins. You are. and others in this thread are.

Tolerance of evil is not a virtue. Not only must we strive for holiness on a personal level, we must also admonish others. St. Paul, by his own admission was a sinner, yet he did not shy away from telling others of their wrongdoings. None of us are perfect. But we must warn others of their sins. If the world hares us for it, so be it.

 

[zachforn]

Tolerance of evil is not a virtue. Not only must we strive for holiness on a personal level, we must also admonish others. St. Paul, by his own admission was a sinner, yet he did not shy away from telling others of their wrongdoings. None of us are perfect. But we must warn others of their sins. If the world hates us for it, so be it.

You can warn others of their sins, that’s fine, warn all you want, but do you have the right to not grant or to take away the rights of people who perform mortal sins, when you yourself have those rights and yet still perform mortal sin.

If the criteria to have a legal right is that no mortal sin is performed in the exercising of that legal right, then you and every Catholic who participates in the modern American life should have some legal rights taken away.

How come, in no reply to my postings, does someone say “You’re right, I do perform mortal sins everyday of my life because I participate in the modern American life. I will give up all the rights I wish to deny others because I, like them, perform sinful abominations.” How come no one responds in such a way?

How come no one takes some personal responsibility and says “You’re right, my choices, based upon the fact that I enjoy being comfortable, my choices lead to suffering and death of innocent people, that I perform mortal sins everyday because I realize (or could realize if I took the time to research) that I actively participate in a system that forces others to suffer moral degradation and death, that I acknowledge this, and will drastically change my life so that I will no longer participate in such a system.” How come no one replies thus?

How come this discussion keeps repeating itself?

 

[Lynxdk]

Black is black and white is white, that’s what Roman’s and all the other scriptures refer to - Absolute truth, not relative truth. Sorry but that’s just the way it is.

May God Bless you, Lynx!

I know, that’s what I’m sayin =)

Sometimes I think I just have to relax because it’s in God’s hands anyway. No matter what happens, it’s in His hands…

That’s the spirit! Every day that I wake up and ask God to lead me to Him, and away from sin, I get better at it, I trust more, with more of my heart and mind and soul.

So I would like to look at it this way. I know there’s nothing you can say to me that will change my mind, and vice versa, that’s God’s job anyways, especially if I’m wrong, I would ask Him to help me see right, but what’s between us right now is the word of God, and while that may seem like a bad thing because you and I differ as to what we see there, it’s also one of the best things there could be to have between us, when you look at it that way, dontcha’ think? =)

God bless!