The issue of gay intolerance

[ladybri77]

I know, that’s what I’m sayin =)

That’s the spirit! Every day that I wake up and ask God to lead me to Him, and away from sin, I get better at it, I trust more, with more of my heart and mind and soul.

So I would like to look at it this way. I know there’s nothing you can say to me that will change my mind, and vice versa, that’s God’s job anyways, especially if I’m wrong, I would ask Him to help me see right, but what’s between us right now is the word of God, and while that may seem like a bad thing because you and I differ as to what we see there, it’s also one of the best things there could be to have between us, when you look at it that way, dontcha’ think? =)

God bless!

That’s a great prayer that you say every day. I don’t understand that when scripture says one thing very clearly, like if it said blood is red, the grass is green, the sky is blue, some people say, no, it’s orange, purple or brown. They don’t see it for what it actually is because they don’t want to see the real truth. They’ll say, no that’s not what it really meant. It means people would have to change something about themselves if they saw it for what it really says.

You know I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of a few things after a certain amount of time went by. I never did not believe in the actual meaning of scripture, but take for example, homosexuality. I wasn’t convinced at first it was wrong, then I read a book called, Homosexual No More, by Bill Consiglio, and finally, the Lord convicted my heart of His truth in the matter through this and other books. I also saw myself in it, so I know God lead me to it for a reason as I was struggling. After that I joined a Christian support group and started the healing process. I’m so thankful the Holy Spirit gave me this revelation and revealed His Truth to me, otherwise, I don’t know where I’d be today.

Bill Consiglio is a Christian therapist who would use scripture in his examples and showed in a diagram the development of homosexual desires which revealed how the sex drive is like a stream with a fast current going in one direction, downstream as it should. If something happens psychologically or emotionally to the person, a log is put in the middle of the stream, and the force of the water instead turns making it go in a different direction, thus deviant sexual desires develop. Made a lot of sense.

Keep saying that prayer!

 

[CWBetts]

You can warn others of their sins, that’s fine, warn all you want, but do you have the right to not grant or to take away the rights of people who perform mortal sins, when you yourself have those rights and yet still perform mortal sin.

If the criteria to have a legal right is that no mortal sin is performed in the exercising of that legal right, then you and every Catholic who participates in the modern American life should have some legal rights taken away.

How come, in no reply to my postings, does someone say “You’re right, I do perform mortal sins everyday of my life because I participate in the modern American life. I will give up all the rights I wish to deny others because I, like them, perform sinful abominations.” How come no one responds in such a way?

How come no one takes some personal responsibility and says “You’re right, my choices, based upon the fact that I enjoy being comfortable, my choices lead to suffering and death of innocent people, that I perform mortal sins everyday because I realize (or could realize if I took the time to research) that I actively participate in a system that forces others to suffer moral degradation and death, that I acknowledge this, and will drastically change my life so that I will no longer participate in such a system.” How come no one replies thus?

How come this discussion keeps repeating itself?

Holy Matrimony is not a right. It is a sacrament. There are conditions that can make me ineligable for the others. I must have a contrite heart for absolution. I must have fasted for one hour and be free from grave sin in order to recieve Holy Communion. As an adult, I must make a profession of faith for Baptism. Holy Matrimony is only to be for a man and a woman. One man and one woman. It places an indelible mark on our sould as long as both participants are alive. To say you have a “right” to marry someone of the same gender is just as ludicrous as saying I have a “right” to prsent myself for Commnion when I am concious of mortal sin. Furthermore the sacrament has a twofold purpose. One is for the union of man and woman into one flesh. The other is to be open to the gift of life, something impsiible with same-sex couples. It is not just some kind of contractual arrangement. It is the only circumstance where the gift of sexuality can be used properly. Sexuality is not simply about self pleasure. It is about the creation of life. There are a mutitude of ways to misuse this powerful gift of sexuality. Homosexual activity is only one.

 

[ladybri77]

You can warn others of their sins, that’s fine, warn all you want, but do you have the right to not grant or to take away the rights of people who perform mortal sins, when you yourself have those rights and yet still perform mortal sin.

If the criteria to have a legal right is that no mortal sin is performed in the exercising of that legal right, then you and every Catholic who participates in the modern American life should have some legal rights taken away.

How come, in no reply to my postings, does someone say “You’re right, I do perform mortal sins everyday of my life because I participate in the modern American life. I will give up all the rights I wish to deny others because I, like them, perform sinful abominations.” How come no one responds in such a way?

How come no one takes some personal responsibility and says “You’re right, my choices, based upon the fact that I enjoy being comfortable, my choices lead to suffering and death of innocent people, that I perform mortal sins everyday because I realize (or could realize if I took the time to research) that I actively participate in a system that forces others to suffer moral degradation and death, that I acknowledge this, and will drastically change my life so that I will no longer participate in such a system.” How come no one replies thus?

How come this discussion keeps repeating itself?

Hmmm, it sounds like what you’re saying is that our friend, Betts, is living a very sinful lifestyle and is walking around in grave mortal sin when he knows what the right thing is, but he just won’t turn from it! (Just being facitious).

Well, the truth is he can’t change without the power of the Holy Spirit living in Him, but it sounds like He knows how to confess sin and turn away from it. Thus, I don’t believe he’s walking around in mortal sin but at times may commit it only to seek forgiveness and turn away again. This is much different than living a sinful lifestyle 24/7.

Why should we put a stamp of approval on immoral behavior which is a sinful lifestyle 24/7 without the person as much as acknowledging it is sin but yet condones it and does not turn away from it and wants to change our laws which have represented marriage in its truest form for hundreds of years?..and approves of others who do it?? (Romans 1:32)

The Bible says, “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil!” Isaiah 5:20

 

[zachforn]

Hmmm, it sounds like what you’re saying is that our friend, Betts, is living a very sinful lifestyle and is walking around in grave mortal sin when he knows what the right thing is, but he just won’t turn from it! (Just being facitious).

Well, the truth is he can’t change without the power of the Holy Spirit living in Him, but it sounds like He knows how to confess sin and turn away from it. Thus, I don’t believe he’s walking around in mortal sin but at times may commit it only to seek forgiveness and turn away again. This is much different than living a sinful lifestyle 24/7.

Why should we put a stamp of approval on immoral behavior which is a sinful lifestyle 24/7 without the person as much as acknowledging it is sin but yet condones it and does not turn away from it and wants to change our laws which have represented marriage in its truest form for hundreds of years?..and approves of others who do it?? (Romans 1:32)

The Bible says, “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil!” Isaiah 5:20

Are you folks just not understanding what I’m saying? You are living 24/7 in mortal sin! If you decide to use ANY technology that incorporates plastics and/or computation ability (i.e. something with circuity in it) YOU ARE LIVING IN MORTAL SIN. If you live in a house with electricity that is hooked up to central distributing center, you are living in Mortal Sin.

Mortal Sin defined:

1. it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (ignorance is no excuse)
2. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Again, go, do the research. (1) You’ll find that you are living in mortal sin essentially 24/7. And since you are, (2) and that’s the criteria for legal rights, why should you have the right to have legal privileges when you are attempting to deny these LEGAL rights to mortal sinners just like yourselves.

Please address the two above issues, rather than trying to run around it!

Also, when I talk about not granting marriage rights, I’m not speaking about Christian marriage. I’m talking about a legal marriage that instills legal rights granted by the state. Marriage pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years, it was not a Christian creation, btw.

 

[CWBetts]

Are you folks just not understanding what I’m saying? You are living 24/7 in mortal sin! If you decide to use ANY technology that incorporates plastics and/or computation ability (i.e. something with circuity in it) YOU ARE LIVING IN MORTAL SIN. If you live in a house with electricity that is hooked up to central distributing center, you are living in Mortal Sin.

Mortal Sin defined:

it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Again, go, do the research. You’ll find that you are living in mortal sin essentially 24/7.

Please address this issue, rather than trying to run around it!

Also, when I talk about not granting marriage rights, I’m not speaking about Christian marriage. I’m talking about a legal marriage that instills legal rights granted by the state. Marriage pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years, it was not a Christian creation, btw.

What is the mortal sin? Are you charging to us sins commited by others, sins which we have no part in? Please explain yourself.

 

[zachforn]

American Jurisprudence is based upon Natural Law. Therefore, our “secular” laws are derived from Natural Law.

From our inception as a country, our Founding Fathers understood Natural Law to be exhibited in the mode of life, because God had infused man with this law on his heart. This would mean that there are universal understandings that “all men are created equal and with inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness.” As Abraham Lincoln proclaimed in his Gettysburg Address: “Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.”

That proposition is derived from Natural Law. Natural Law has never been appealed to as a means for supporting homosexuality as “normal.” That’s because Natural Law speaks in opposition to it.

Hope that helps.

Did you not read my entire post? The part where I talked about what the Legal Arena holds to be “Natural Law”?

 

[zachforn]

What is the mortal sin? Are you charging to us sins commited by others, sins which we have no part in? Please explain yourself.

Uh, I thought this was what we were discussing. Go read post #250. The mortal sin you participate in is the modern American life, the plastics, the petroleum, the means of locating, procuring, securing, producing, and disposing of these essential components to the modern American life lead to the suffering and death of innocent people.

To live a comfortable life, you choose to participate in this mortal sin.

 

[CWBetts]

Uh, I thought this was what we were discussing. Go read post #250. The mortal sin you participate in is the modern American life, the plastics, the petroleum, the means of locating, procuring, securing, producing, and disposing of these essential components to the modern American life lead to the suffering and death of innocent people.

To live a comfortable life, you choose to participate in this mortal sin.

What we are discussing is the absolute incompatability with the active homosexual lifestyle with holiness. Your argument was ignored because it is preposterous. We are not culpable for the sins committed by people we do not know, taking place in countries where we do not have jurisdiction, and therefore no control. People are responsible for their own actions, and not for the actions of others! End of story. You will be reported if you attempt to take the thread off-topic again.

 

[Lynxdk]

People are responsible for their own actions, and not for the actions of others! End of story.

I hope you realize what you just said there =)

 

[CWBetts]

I hope you realize what you just said there =)

This does not mean to turn a blind eye to sin. Fight it where we can. Maybe CAtholics should just, I don’t know, follow the teachings of the Church. Cafeteria CAtholics really get under my skin.

 

[jplukenda]

They say to accept them we must accept their lifestile. Its like saying you cant love an alcoholic parent if you don`t approve of alcoholism.

 

[zachforn]

What we are discussing is the absolute incompatability with the active homosexual lifestyle with holiness. Your argument was ignored because it is preposterous. We are not culpable for the sins committed by people we do not know, taking place in countries where we do not have jurisdiction, and therefore no control. People are responsible for their own actions, and not for the actions of others! End of story. You will be reported if you attempt to take the thread off-topic again.

My discussion is not off topic at all. The topic is gay intolerance. I am merely saying that gay intolerance is intolerance of a mortal sin. I agree. I also am saying that intolerance of ANY mortal sin should not be condoned.

Hypothetic: If Henry pays Mr. X to murder Mrs. A the murder is on Henry’s soul as well as Mr. X’s Even though Henry is not responsible for Mr. X’s actions Henry is still culpable for the sin. Do you agree?

Now, since ignorance of a sin committed is not a freebie (so AGAIN, I suggest you go do some research), you cannot claim innocence even if you don’t know what your actions lead to.

In a previous email I mentioned all of the specialty metals in your computer and how those metals are mined and produced by cheap laborers who breath in the metal and develop sickness and die. You may be ignorant of this, but again that doesn’t clear you or your sin, since the information is out there, you just don’t want to research it. So, every time you use a computer you are using a product that causes suffering and death. And there are so, so, so many products like this in modern American life.

OF course it is an unfortunate system, and of course it could be different if people fixed it (and of course you could decide to never use your a computer again). BUT it IS the system that is in place now. IT IS A SYSTEM THAT YOU USE AND DECIDE PARTICIPATE IN EVERYDAY. It is a system that brings suffering and death to innocent people.

And of course you WANT to say this is preposterous, I want to say it’s preposterous. It absolutely is horrifying that such a system developed to produce cheap material goods for comfortable Americans. But it’s the truth. And YOU and I both decide to continue everyday to take part in this system.

This is not off topic. This is me not tolerating mortal sin, this is me spreading the truth to try to stop you from committing mortal sins.

My question to you: YES OR NO

Do you decide everyday to participate in the modern American material culture, in an economic and material production system that causes others in the world to suffer sickness, physical degradation and death?

Please just answer the question with a YES or NO. Because that will say a lot about the subject of this thread and you as a follower of God’s infinite mercy and love.

Yes or No.

 

[rinnie]

They say to accept them we must accept their lifestile. Its like saying you cant love an alcoholic parent if you don`t approve of alcoholism.

You know my son had a friend and his Mother later in life choose this lifestyle. And let me tell you this kid was in that actual position. Its bad enough to go through life with the regular problems, weight, peer pressure etc but add this in the mix.

It was a life of hell for this kid. Could you imagine bringing a friend home and them seeing this your mom and girlfriend. But in this case it was kinda like the how do I love her and not accept this lifestyle. Because at least a alcoholic admits its wrong. It indeed goes against God, but so does this life style. But he was made to accept and ignore this sin, because he was taught it was fine. ANd let me tell you his life was hell on earth because of this sin. His Mother got pregnant and he never knew his Dad, it was the girlfriend he knew. And i am sorry this was not normal. It was a horrible life. The Mother could yes choose her life, but she was selfish and choose only herself, and not this child. It was not fair.

 

[CWBetts]

My discussion is not off topic at all. The topic is gay intolerance. I am merely saying that gay intolerance is intolerance of a mortal sin. I agree. I also am saying that intolerance of ANY mortal sin should not be condoned.

Hypothetic: If Henry pays Mr. X to murder Mrs. A the murder is on Henry’s soul as well as Mr. X’s Even though Henry is not responsible for Mr. X’s actions Henry is still culpable for the sin. Do you agree?

Now, since ignorance of a sin committed is not a freebie (so AGAIN, I suggest you go do some research), you cannot claim innocence even if you don’t know what your actions lead to.

In a previous email I mentioned all of the specialty metals in your computer and how those metals are mined and produced by cheap laborers who breath in the metal and develop sickness and die. You may be ignorant of this, but again that doesn’t clear you or your sin, since the information is out there, you just don’t want to research it. So, every time you use a computer you are using a product that causes suffering and death. And there are so, so, so many products like this in modern American life.

OF course it is an unfortunate system, and of course it could be different if people fixed it (and of course you could decide to never use your a computer again). BUT it IS the system that is in place now. IT IS A SYSTEM THAT YOU USE AND DECIDE PARTICIPATE IN EVERYDAY. It is a system that brings suffering and death to innocent people.

And of course you WANT to say this is preposterous, I want to say it’s preposterous. It absolutely is horrifying that such a system developed to produce cheap material goods for comfortable Americans. But it’s the truth. And YOU and I both decide to continue everyday to take part in this system.

This is not off topic. This is me not tolerating mortal sin, this is me spreading the truth to try to stop you from committing mortal sins.

My question to you: YES OR NO

Do you decide everyday to participate in the modern American material culture, in an economic and material production system that causes others in the world to suffer sickness, physical degradation and death?

Please just answer the question with a YES or NO. Because that will say a lot about the subject of this thread and you as a follower of God’s infinite mercy and love.

Yes or No.

Homosexual activity is the perversion of one of God’s graetest gifts: sexuality. It is selfish. It ignores the puropose of sexuality and turns it towards sensual gratification. It is impossible for homosexual activity to produce children, and is therefore impossible to be conducted chastely. In homosexual relationships one participant merely views the other as an object for gratification, and is not the coming together of two people to create life. I will NOT adress your other points because they have absolutely no bearing on the discussion. You will be reported if you bring it up ahain because they are off-topic. Even if I was an unrepentant killer, it would make homsexual activity no less evil.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Christians need to be very careful when they hear someone make such claims that homosexuality is “natural” and “normal.” We already know that God has declared it to be an abomination. Homosexuality cannot produce what God has ordained for humankind to produce - children. Homosexuality can mimic heterosexual marriage, but that is nothing more than a vain attempt to shake their fist at God for ordaining marriage to be between a man and a woman.

I know ~you~ believe that, and I can understand that view, really, but other people see things differently and are just as certain in their own understanding.

I am convinced that you DO NOT understand that view. Everyone needs to be perfectly clear about how you are parsing this conversation. I am speaking of one thing, and you are speaking of an entirely different thing.

To begin with, I am speaking of a Biblical interpretation which is born from a POV rooted in traditionalism and a clear spiritual understanding of Christ as Savior and High Priest, while you are speaking of a Biblical interpretation which is alienated from that perspective.

Here’s what that means: Christ is key and central to all true and Biblical understanding. It is by the Holy Spirit that anyone can even know who Christ is, and the Holy Spirit promises that wherever and whenever He speaks, He will speak and point to Christ.

Christ is our High Priest. It is therefore of critical importance that we view all interpretations in light of this knowledge. Christ died for our sins, and as Hebrews tells us, He was a propitiation for our sins. Being a propitiation means that God was angry with us, and He sent His Son to do for Him, what we could not do for ourselves.

It is clear from reading of the Bible that we worship a God who demands true worship, and that the worship be performed in spirit, and in truth (John 4). Any other type of worship is an abomination to Him. As such, if people pervert God’s Word to mean something it doesn’t, then they worship Him in a perverted manner, and God is not pleased.

Because God has made man and woman physiologically, and psychologically, and spiritually compatible for union with each other, then man perverts this design whenever he tries to replace it with a man/man or woman/woman relationships. There are same sex relationships which are acceptable, but never those which seek to pervert the design of the Creator.

Lynx:

Where has God judged homosexuality to be wrong? Jesus, specifically, really. That’s what I’d like pointed out to me. If you don’t know what it’s like to be one, so how can you really know?. . .You can’t know unless you were there.

How can I really know what it’s like to be a homosexual? That’s a strange question. I couldn’t tell you what it’s like to BE a homosexual, but I don’t need to know the answer to that in order to give my position against homosexuality. Your question is based upon FEELINGS, and feelings can and often do lead us astray.

No, you cannot follow your heart, because our hearts are desperately wicked, God tells us. We need to think with our minds, and KNOW what it is that God expects from us.

Lynx:

I like the liberal label… because I’m really very conservative, but that’s ok.

You may be in SOME areas, but in this, you clearly are not conservative.

Lynx:

What I’m speaking about is ~not~ hiding things in secret, being open about it ~without~ having to fear being judged and harmed by other people for being different.

Yes, that is the homosexual agenda - to change the public’s perception of homosexuality so that homosexuals can feel free to come out and to practice perversion in public without fear of being judged by others.

Lynx:

And not open in a way of rubbing it in other peoples faces either, as conservatives often complain about…

It doesn’t matter how “open” you state it should or shouldn’t be. Again, you can’t and don’t speak for the millions of other homosexuals, so there is no way that you can give any guarantee except for yourself. And your guarantee will do nothing when considered against the majority of homosexuals who are in-your-face about it.

[CONTINUED…]

 

[Shaken]

Fornication is wrong between heterosexuals, too, but folks aren’t anywhere near as intolerant of that. It must be a case of the proverbial mote in the eye again.

I still think it shouldn’t be called marriage if the couple is same sex. One thing about same sex couples is that fooling around outside of marriage won’t ever produce a child.

For Catholics there is the sacrament of Matrimony, additional to the state marriage. The sacrament won’t ever accommodate a same sex couple, just as the Church will never let go of the unmarried character of Holy Orders.

It’s a center, a focus in Christ, that keeps humanity from spinning off into chaos, non Life.

 

[PEPCIS]

But that is part of the homosexual agenda, where they force representations of “good” and “appealing” homosexual couples to the world via a complicit media. If they can continually portray homosexuals as “gay” and “non-threatening”, then they can further their propaganda that “homosexuality is just like heterosexuality.”

Lynx:

You’re assuming people have an agenda other than to be with, and love God, on their own best terms and ways.

No, no, no. I’m assuming EXACTLY THAT. I’m saying, in unequivocal terms, that people DON’T have the right to “love God on their own best terms and ways.” “There is a way that seems right unto man, but the ways thereof are death.” (Proverbs 14:12)

The purpose of our worship is to glorify, honor, praise, exalt, and please God. This is exactly what I was pointing out in my last post - that when you come to God with a perverted view of His design, it shows that you have a perverted view of who God is, and you pervert your worship, and it is therefore not pleasing to Him.

Lynx:

The only defiance they have when they throw things back in your face is when you try to stuff your view into theirs.

Well, it’s a good thing that I don’t try to stuff my veiws into their face!

Lynx:

Allow them the freedom to be and exist, the way God made them. . .

I don’t stop people from making choices to become murderers, because typically, I’m not there when they make those choices. If I were there, I would stop them from doing any type of act which would result in the death of another human.

When homosexuals embark on homosexual acts, they do things that result in spiritual death. God DID NOT make them this way. The world and their decietful hearts did. God has the answer to pull them out from this.

Lynx:

. . .you might just find something a little better than arguing back and forth, trying to win a battle you can’t win, when it comes to the laws of Man.

I know that you know that there are certain individuals out there, such as myself, who won’t back down from pro-homosexual arguments. The best that you could ever hope for would be that we might take your advice, and to stop arguing “a battle you can’t win.” In a sense, it is true that we won’t ever win the war, but there are battles to be won. Christ commands us to speak the truth, and to do anything less would be to think less of Him.

 

[Shaken]

Don’t be fooled, don’t forget: God loves homosexuals, too. He loves every last bit of broken humanity ever created; each person has a place in His grand master plan crashed by original sin.

Fornication between heterosexuals isn’t a lesser sin.

 

[CWBetts]

Don’t be fooled, don’t forget: God loves homosexuals, too. He loves every last bit of broken humanity ever created; each person has a place in His grand master plan crashed by original sin.

Fornication between heterosexuals isn’t a lesser sin.

I don’t think anyone here has said otherwise.

 

[zachforn]

Homosexual activity is the perversion of one of God’s graetest gifts: sexuality. It is selfish. It ignores the puropose of sexuality and turns it towards sensual gratification. It is impossible for homosexual activity to produce children, and is therefore impossible to be conducted chastely. In homosexual relationships one participant merely views the other as an object for gratification, and is not the coming together of two people to create life. I will NOT adress your other points because they have absolutely no bearing on the discussion. You will be reported if you bring it up ahain because they are off-topic.

Again, this is not off topic. I’m simply wondering how one can be so committed on focusing on the sins of another (homosexuality) and wish to restrict the legal rights of said homosexual sinner, when they themselves are mortal sinners and enjoy their legal rights. How is this off topic? This is the exact topic of the thread

You don’t want to address the other points connected to the topic of the thread because that means you would have to face the truth, and that would be uncomfortable, because you would have to either keep on living your nice, comfortable life, or drastically change your life. That’s why your not discussing that component of our on-topic discussion.

Again, do you think this is an accident that we’re having this conversation? Of course not, there are no accidents with God. God destined this conversation, God is trying to show me something and God is trying to show you something. Why are you denying the truth that God is trying to show you: that your actions and your decisions to participate in modern American life are abhorrent and out of line with His infinite love and mercy. And before you flex your will against other mortal sinners (homosexuals) and try to deny their legal rights, you should consider flexing your will on yourself and possibly leave the modern American system or give up some of you legal rights, since not perfoming mortal sin is the criteria of possessing legal rights (according to your argument)

Even if I was an unrepentant killer, it would make homosexual activity no less evil.

“If”? Do the research and find out the true nature of your “if”

And I agree it doesn’t make homosexuality any less an evil, but this thread is about tolerating homosexual activity and the legal rights issue revolving around homosexuals; if the criteria for legal rights is performing no mortal sin, then you, and most other modern American participants don’t deserve their legal rights.

I’m not talking about the evilness of this or the evilness of that, I’m discussing Legal Rights and the issue of Legal Rights being given or taken away from mortal sinners (homosexuals and ALL other mortal sinners [again this is the exact topic of this thread]).

So, back to my YES or NO question. Why are you afraid to answer? Do you not want to turn your analysis of mortal sin on yourself? Are you afraid to? Why are afraid to?

What is this thread for, if not to get to the core of the truths we all hold dear.

YES or NO