The issue of gay intolerance

[PEPCIS]

You see, we are not juding the person, but the behavior, the sin. Christians are so concerned about gay marriage because it is opening a huge Pandora’s box of immorality in our country. Is not the country affected (and destoryed) by its immorality? I would say yes, and when it starts affecting me and my children, and when it starts opening the door for further immorality; for instance, what’s to keep other groups from coming forward now with their requests for legalization and/or marriage??

If this is all based on the right of an individual’s happiness, then why wouldn’t the polygamist, incestor or pedophile not wnat his/her rights now also. (Incestors are now seeking legalization in Europe.)

Great points. Well said.

 

[PEPCIS]

1. Now it seems your only other argument is that “Natural Law” denies that a female gay couple has potential to have babies. I guess my question is what is “Natural Law”? Since we’re are speaking about legalities here, secular laws, I’m not looking for what Catholics believe Natural Law is or what Aquinas thinks Natural Law is. I want to know is how does the U.S. Legislative Body (and other various state legislative bodies) define Natural Law. the legal arena defines Natural Law in its most broad stance:

A law or body of laws that derives from nature and is believed to be binding upon human actions apart from or in conjunction with laws established by human authority.

American Jurisprudence is based upon Natural Law. Therefore, our “secular” laws are derived from Natural Law.

From our inception as a country, our Founding Fathers understood Natural Law to be exhibited in the mode of life, because God had infused man with this law on his heart. This would mean that there are universal understandings that “all men are created equal and with inalienable rights, among them life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness.” As Abraham Lincoln proclaimed in his Gettysburg Address: “Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.”

That proposition is derived from Natural Law. Natural Law has never been appealed to as a means for supporting homosexuality as “normal.” That’s because Natural Law speaks in opposition to it.

Hope that helps.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

No, you’re probably spot on when it comes to me. I’m not taking offense…

I like you =)

Well, I like you as well. I won’t say there is not a person I don’t like, because I would be lying. But, you seem to have a personality that is willing to explore this issue and defend yourself and your beliefs. The best avenue to the truth is found in the defense of your own beliefs. They will either stand or fall in the light of God’s truth.

How are you going to force it on me, if not by law?

Lynx:

I’m not, even by law, really… I’m not one to force anything on anyone, even my words that I ~usually~ don’t even say aloud because people tend to react rather than think about what I have to say… but I’ve had many things forced on me in my time, often very brutally, so I don’t see a difference between, (just to categorize and generalize people, without the intention of saying You or I or Anyone else on this forums is within those categories, just the observable way things tend to be if you take a step back and look at the US, and just keeping it home for now, to look at the planks in the eyes of this countries people)…

Here’s the rub: if you are homosexual, or an advocate for homosexuality, then you are going to try to force YOUR views on me. Currently, this is being done. It cannot be denied. If you do, I don’t know if there’s any help for you. :::chuckle:::

Lynx:

I don’t see a difference between the Religious Right making laws and shoving them down every bodies throats and the Liberal Left doing it right back.

The language that we use is so very telling of where we stand. I would say that you are a Liberal (based upon the varying language that you have used to express your opinions). For example, you state that the Religious Right makes laws and shoves them down everyone’s throats.

That’s a typical lie which is bandied about by Liberals. The fact of the matter is, conservatives are making laws to REINFORCE current laws and understandings that America has operated under since its inception. It is not making new understandings of those laws. That is what those on the Liberal Left are doing.

So, it is very interesting that you use the language of the Liberal Left. :::wink, wink:::

Lynx:

Simple reactions and behaviors that are typical of school yard bullies and fights, really, just on a larger scale. ~That~ is wrong, regardless of which side does it because ~that~ is forcing their will on another and ~that~ is an abomination that displeases God.

I see in another post you wanted another poster to explain to you from the Bible where he got the thought that he was trying to express. I’d like to see you do the same here. Where is it that you find Biblical support for claiming that it is wrong for Conservatives to pass laws that reflect morality?

Lynx:

State legalized, I’m talking about, I would never ask, nor would most, to have those things be forced down the throats of churches who would hold to what they believe.

Stop it. That’s a lie that your repeating. You cannot control what the millions of other homosexuals will, and/or will not do. There are far too many homosexuals who are barging in on church services and disrupting their worship services. There are far too many homosexuals who are, and will continue to, force churches to live by every single pro-homosexual law that is passed.

Lynx:

I don’t think it’s wrong to support allowing people the freedom to make their own choices, and even their own mistakes!

Personally, if it were under my control, I would return to the time BEFORE the pre-pro-homosexual ruling by the Supreme Court in 2003. But as it is now, I would be happy to conclude a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy for the military, as well as for civilian life. Sorry.

Lynx:

. . .people who can’t consider that they might be wrong are, to my mind, simply basing their moral judgments on their own fears and prejudices.

That’s more pro-homosexual propaganda. If you can’t be turned from your anti-homosexual position, then you will be treated and repeated for being “homophobic.” Never mind that true clinical homophobia is a rare diagnosis itself. Homosexuals will literally shout you down and repeatedly barrage you with the charge that you must be homophobic, because you are reacting solely out of “irrational fear and prejudice.”

Lynx:

. . . For myself, it doesn’t matter what you think about me, how you judge me, treat me, good or ill… ~all~ that matters is how God does. It should be like that for everyone.

It is.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I think it’s fair to say that you and I agree that this is about morals - yours and mine, and who’s will prevail.

Yes and no… or not quite… I’m not about prevailing, I’m about understanding. People can see things differently, still understand one another, ~without~ needing to, or making sure that, one or the other prevails, and still be at peace with each other… Brothers and Sisters who bicker and fight one minute, but still love each other the next, while their parents look on, sometimes frustrated at the nonsense, but sighing gratefully when they’re done their bickering bit and get back to loving

As I pointed out in my last post, you can’t control what millions of homosexuals do, and THEY ARE about prevailing. I know that you are expressing a much more passive approach, but you must understand that your position places you in the same camp as those millions of other homosexuals.

You are very astute to make that observation. No matter what quadrant of life that people come from, they are all the same, and all subject to the same sins. However, you are quite wrong to hold to the notion that all sins are the same. Murder is surely not the same as stealing an apple for hunger.

Lynx:

I would take that as a given with actions, but would say is no real difference when considering thoughts and feelings…

President Obama is trying to change the direction of the Supreme Court by changing the way that they operate - from a court which uses the Constitution as their sole means of guiding their decisions, to a court which operates based upon feelings. Scary. That’s anarchy at its finest.

I am an American Christian who tries his best to live by the edicts of the Bible. I desire to have laws that reflect my morals, and not the morals of a homosexual or atheist.

Lynx:

That’s the part where I’m really going to have to disagree with you. Because you want the freedom to be yourself. . .

No, I never, EVER said any such thing. I don’t need the freedom to do what is right. I need the knowledge to know right from wrong, and the courage to do what is right, and the fortitude to stand against what is wrong. I must do ALL of those things. If I only choose what is right for me, and do not fight for what is right for all others, then I might one day loose the rights I have.

I do not need the freedom to do what is right, because even if the Government were to take that freedom away, I would continue to do that which is right.

Lynx:

If you want the freedom to express yourself. . .

You use a LOT of coded language. The “freedom to express yourself” is a euphemism for “to choose the homosexual lifestyle.” But that is what the homosexual lobby MUST do, because otherwise they are taken to task for choosing a lifestyle. Choosing the “freedom to express yourself” is a bonafide right under the Constitution. Choosing the homosexual lifestyle is not.

 

[Lynxdk]

Christians need to be very careful when they hear someone make such claims that homosexuality is “natural” and “normal.” We already know that God has declared it to be an abomination. Homosexuality cannot produce what God has ordained for humankind to produce - children. Homosexuality can mimic heterosexual marriage, but that is nothing more than a vain attempt to shake their fist at God for ordaining marriage to be between a man and a woman.

I know ~you~ believe that, and I can understand that view, really, but other people see things differently and are just as certain in their own understanding. Where has God judged homosexuality to be wrong? Jesus, specifically, really. That’s what I’d like pointed out to me. If you don’t know what it’s like to be one, so how can you really know?

The Catholic Church ~still~ has no really clear position on how to treat people who are biologically both genders (that I’m aware of), a different issue, really, from homosexuality, but still within the same sort of scope. We certainly don’t have enough scientific understanding of the human mind to say whether or not homosexuality if for certain provably normal and natural, but there’s a great deal of evidence ~for~ that. What ~really~ matters is for the people who ~are~, ~they~ know it’s right, but so much has been done to scare so many of them away from God and his churches, you never get to hear or understand from their experiences.

You can’t know unless you were there. The best you can do is assume based on what you read and hear from other peoples lips and words, and they’re easily open to misunderstanding. Christians need to be careful of going that way too else you risk condemning something that God has created only to find out later you were wrong, but hurt all kinds of people because you didn’t want to open your eyes and heart to that possibility. Guilty until proven innocent is how Man’s law generally works.

Liberals speak alot about “consenting adults” as if somehow people can do things in secret and somehow this makes it “ok.” But if they cannot perform them openly without shame, then it is an abomination.

I like the liberal label… because I’m really very conservative, but that’s ok. What I’m speaking about is ~not~ hiding things in secret, being open about it ~without~ having to fear being judged and harmed by other people for being different. And not open in a way of rubbing it in other peoples faces either, as conservatives often complain about… but say even if people had the safety and freedom to be open and honest about things they’ve done wrong such as robbery and rape, they would be allowed to be open to be corrected, instead of lying about such things for fear of being punished for them… And maybe they do deserve punishment, certainly I would say I’d want the people who’ve raped me to be punished for having done so… but maybe not… maybe it’s more that I would like it to be enough that they’re able to know that I can understand how the world had made them to be that way, and I would like them to come clean so they don’t do that to someone else as well. Maybe knowing that about me will help you see why I am the way I am to some extent.

So rather than just continue a cyclical abuse that made them that way in the first place, and end up in jail without getting treatment, just more abuse that makes them have and hold more hate, and then do the same things again when they’re set free… The few people who ~do~ change, I expect do so only with God’s grace and love. Not by any fear of a correctional facility.

But that is part of the homosexual agenda, where they force representations of “good” and “appealing” homosexual couples to the world via a complicit media. If they can continually portray homosexuals as “gay” and “non-threatening”, then they can further their propaganda that “homosexuality is just like heterosexuality.”

You’re assuming people have an agenda other than to be with, and love God, on their own best terms and ways. The only defiance they have when they throw things back in your face is when you try to stuff your view into theirs. Allow them the freedom to be and exist, the way God made them, and the ways God continues to nurture them and grow them, calling them back to him, out of fear and pain, and even fear of judgment, and you might just find something a little better than arguing back and forth, trying to win a battle you can’t win, when it comes to the laws of Man.

You might be right, but so might they. You keep saying God has judged homosexuality to be an abomination, but I have yet to see how he has… You don’t have to quote the Bible, really, I think you can safely assume I’ll reinterpret anything you use to support the side I’m defending (in that sense) just as you can do the same back… Language is too vague an too open to interpretation, so it’s rather pointless really that we start doing that ~laughs~ but you can try to convince me that way if you like, it might be fun if we can continue to chat without getting upset with each other =)

Regardless of anything else though, I would ~very~ much like to simply thank you, PEPCIS specifically, and several others here as well, because I can see that you do have very open loving hearts, all things told, and that’s so nice to have had this experience with you when I’ve had such a hard time discussing things like this with other people who didn’t just get angry at me and tell me to shut up about it, instead =)

 

[Lynxdk]

Well, I like you as well. I won’t say there is not a person I don’t like, because I would be lying. But, you seem to have a personality that is willing to explore this issue and defend yourself and your beliefs. The best avenue to the truth is found in the defense of your own beliefs. They will either stand or fall in the light of God’s truth.

Here’s the rub: if you are homosexual, or an advocate for homosexuality, then you are going to try to force YOUR views on me. Currently, this is being done. It cannot be denied. If you do, I don’t know if there’s any help for you. :::chuckle:::

Well, of course, to some extent, it’s just that ~I~ am not ~personally~ going to try to force my views on you, just discuss them as best I can, knowing that in some sense, yes, I’m very defensive of my positions and views, but at the same time try to leave my defenses down enough so I can question myself as to the potential rightness of ~your~ views… if that makes sense without getting too contradictory and convoluted, I’ll not say it’s easy either, gives me a headache at times

The language that we use is so very telling of where we stand. I would say that you are a Liberal (based upon the varying language that you have used to express your opinions). For example, you state that the Religious Right makes laws and shoves them down everyone’s throats.

That’s a typical lie which is bandied about by Liberals. The fact of the matter is, conservatives are making laws to REINFORCE current laws and understandings that America has operated under since its inception. It is not making new understandings of those laws. That is what those on the Liberal Left are doing.

So, it is very interesting that you use the language of the Liberal Left. :::wink, wink:::

I see in another post you wanted another poster to explain to you from the Bible where he got the thought that he was trying to express. I’d like to see you do the same here. Where is it that you find Biblical support for claiming that it is wrong for Conservatives to pass laws that reflect morality?

Stop it. That’s a lie that your repeating. You cannot control what the millions of other homosexuals will, and/or will not do. There are far too many homosexuals who are barging in on church services and disrupting their worship services. There are far too many homosexuals who are, and will continue to, force churches to live by every single pro-homosexual law that is passed.

I’m just saying it works both ways, always has, the language is really essentially the same, just from opposite directions and so it seems different because the messages oppose each other. Liberal Left and Religious Right, use the same tactics, fight fire with fire, generalize, condemn and judge, butting heads with each other over semantics rather than actually listen to each other.

I’m not lying, I’m generalizing. In the same way I can’t stop a bunch of protesters barging in on a church service and causing more people to be upset and angry, you can stop some of the really twisted people who’ve murdered people in homosexual relationship claiming that God told them to do it. So I would say it this way: ~Neither thing is right, and nor do I hold those one your side responsible for the actions of others, just as some of us ask you to not hold those things against all of us~ It’s rather like that one bad apple saying I like to lean on… only there’s often more than one bad apple, so it’s harder to see the good ones behind them… again, works both ways

Personally, if it were under my control, I would return to the time BEFORE the pre-pro-homosexual ruling by the Supreme Court in 2003. But as it is now, I would be happy to conclude a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy for the military, as well as for civilian life. Sorry.

I know, easier to leave Pandora’s box closed rather than open it up and see what’s inside ~grinz~ I just can’t help trying to open a closed box when I see one (not meaning you, per se… again… “I’m just sayin”

That’s more pro-homosexual propaganda. If you can’t be turned from your anti-homosexual position, then you will be treated and repeated for being “homophobic.” Never mind that true clinical homophobia is a rare diagnosis itself. Homosexuals will literally shout you down and repeatedly barrage you with the charge that you must be homophobic, because you are reacting solely out of “irrational fear and prejudice.”

Because they feel like they’re trapped with their backs against the wall, and so to back the other way does the other side feel, forced to defend their positions with every last breath of defense, clinging to their own ideals and beliefs with no openness to the others side.

 

[Lynxdk]

As I pointed out in my last post, you can’t control what millions of homosexuals do, and THEY ARE about prevailing. I know that you are expressing a much more passive approach, but you must understand that your position places you in the same camp as those millions of other homosexuals.

No, I never, EVER said any such thing. I don’t need the freedom to do what is right. I need the knowledge to know right from wrong, and the courage to do what is right, and the fortitude to stand against what is wrong. I must do ALL of those things. If I only choose what is right for me, and do not fight for what is right for all others, then I might one day loose the rights I have.

I do not need the freedom to do what is right, because even if the Government were to take that freedom away, I would continue to do that which is right.

Same to, for you, only from an opposing direction. I’m sorry if I’m getting repetitive with this, and again not meaning to lump you in with hate mongers, but in that same sort of way you end up on their side when you oppose my side (again, the whole your side my side thing not really meaning that way in specifics… but because generalizations make it seem that way) I’m just trying to find my best way to God’s side, holding to what ~I~ know to be good and right and true, just as your do in your way.

I’ll just quote this as ~ME~ saying it:
I don’t need the freedom to do what is right. I need the knowledge to know right from wrong, and the courage to do what is right, and the fortitude to stand against what is wrong. I must do ALL of those things. If I only choose what is right for me, and do not fight for what is right for all others, then I might one day loose the rights I have.

I do not need the freedom to do what is right, because even if the Government were to take that freedom away, I would continue to do that which is right.

I would just say it’s an unfortunate circumstance that situates me to seem to oppose you.

You use a LOT of coded language. The “freedom to express yourself” is a euphemism for “to choose the homosexual lifestyle.” But that is what the homosexual lobby MUST do, because otherwise they are taken to task for choosing a lifestyle. Choosing the “freedom to express yourself” is a bonafide right under the Constitution. Choosing the homosexual lifestyle is not.

How is it any different in that sense? One doesn’t choose to be a homosexual, one ~is~ or ~isn’t~ in much the same one doesn’t choose to be black or white, Asian or Hispanic, a boy or a girl, or something in between. One doesn’t choose to be born with deformities and other birth defects, nor does God ~put~ these things on people just to punish or test them, they just are, and over time these things have improved in some ways, people accepting other people for their differences, people have been given rights they deserved to start with, such as women being allowed to wear pants, as my currently favorite nice example… You just don’t believe it. You don’t know what it’s like to be one, and, to me, I think it’s because you’re afraid (not you, really, just “your side” in general). Your side wants Pandora’s box to stay closed.

So, still, I’m not talking about you specifically, I think you’re a very brave and courageous person for standing tall with with your beliefs as they are, I just think you’re wrong ~laughs~ but I also have to accept that maybe ~I~ am wrong as well… else I’d be a hypocrite… so instead I take a position that we’re both right, because we are, from our own unique perspectives, even if that seems contradictory… it isn’t. And I’m quite convinced that there’s a way all this can be handled without each side being at each other’s throats over it.

People need to be allowed to be the way they are… but ~some things~ can’t be allowed, those that hurt other people in forced ways, and, and most especially, anything that might harm a child.

I say by telling children how wrong homosexuality is, it’s harming children, because then they never get to talk about how they feel, and how they are, and how they know themselves to be, because they’re too afraid they’ll be punished or hurt in some way because of it, so they instead hide it from their parent, friends, neighbors, secretly hiding their own true hearts and feelings, and sometimes, when they’ve had enough of being afraid, they let it out and protest angrily in a church because of all the harm and hurt that was done to them, making them afraid to exist the way God made them in the first place.

But I understand you see it differently… and that’s not something that we can reconcile and see eye to eye about… so… all I can do is keep doing what I know is right, and let God be the judge, because I also know that even if I’m right and you’re wrong, you won’t be condemned for it, and I hope the same for myself and put myself in God’s hands for it.

 

[LolLolLolLol]

Right,
So, you guys believe God created everyone, yes?
So, surely, he made gay people? Hm, so he made gay people, but he doesn’t want them to BE gay? Riight, that makes perfect sense. But wait, you say Satan is for gay people and God isn’t? Well then, Satan created gay people? And we create gay people…So what you’re really saying is, Satan is our creator? Oh my gosh. That’s not very nice to say in a Catholic column, get off here at once!

Look, what right do we have to judge people? I don’t care what peoples orientation is, if they are a kind natured person, then they are good, and if you believe in heaven, thats where they should go.

Okay? So stop gay bashing and do something useful, like campaigning for human rights!..or you know, something.;]

 

[CWBetts]

Right,
So, you guys believe God created everyone, yes?
So, surely, he made gay people? Hm, so he made gay people, but he doesn’t want them to BE gay? Riight, that makes perfect sense. But wait, you say Satan is for gay people and God isn’t? Well then, Satan created gay people? And we create gay people…So what you’re really saying is, Satan is our creator? Oh my gosh. That’s not very nice to say in a Catholic column, get off here at once!

Look, what right do we have to judge people? I don’t care what peoples orientation is, if they are a kind natured person, then they are good, and if you believe in heaven, thats where they should go.

Okay? So stop gay bashing and do something useful, like campaigning for human rights!..or you know, something.;]

ANOTHER person who thinks they know what the Church teaches about homosexuality, but obviously does not.

 

[Lynxdk]

Right,
Okay? So stop gay bashing and do something useful, like campaigning for human rights!..or you know, something.;]

They aren’t bashing people, and they are campaigning for what is right. Perhaps you might stop to consider what they have to say from ~their~ perspective and understanding rather than mocking them. Even if you disagree on ~this one~ subject, you might be able to see all the ~other~ good things the Church does that you would or could agree with if you actually opened your eyes and looked… unless you’re afraid that they might be right? I know ~I~ am sometimes, but I don’t let that stop me from seeing plenty of ~other~ things I can agree with.

Do you even really have a position for yourself? Or do you just make assumptions and generalize based on what other people have to say and go with that without reading and seeing things for yourself?

 

[PEPCIS]

and Yes, I would say it’s good to speak and act out against things that you know are wrong, such as murder and rape, regardless of the age of the person against whom those acts are committed, but when 2 people love each other, care for each other, trust each other, allow them to be, regardless of gender and other circumstances.

Now, I’m not trying to equate humans to dogs, but if you said “When someone loves a dog, and wants to care for that dog, and allow that dog to care for him (in whatever capacity it can), and allow them to be in whatever relationship that they want to, regardless of the fact that one is a dog, and another is a human”, you can see that your statement is just pure bunk.

Love is a CHOICE, just like homosexuality. You can love someone, or you can choose to NOT love someone. The absence of love would be the presence of hate (not hate in the truest of senses where you actively search to destroy someone).

God uses the word “hate” just that way: “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated.” (Romans 9) It just means that God witholds his active love, but allows Esau the providential love which he bestows on us all (rain, sun, etc).

Lynx:

If you keep lumping all the real sins in with the things that are not, you’ll never be able to separate them truly. . .

Well, it’s a good thing that I’m able to truly discern by God’s Word!!!

Lynx:

Because I don’t recall Jesus actually saying anything against 2 people of the same gender forming a union…

Yes, He did.

Lynx:

. . .correct me if I’m wrong, although you already know I’ll re-interpret that for myself… can’t really do otherwise, and that’s, fundamentally, no different from what everyone else does.

Well, that’s why I won’t bother to quote the Word to you. You know it just as well as I probably do. If you just want to reinterpret it out of existence, you can justify your life that way, but it won’t matter one whit to God, because He will still judge us according to His Word.

Lynx:

Add to that gender is much more differently understood ~now~ as opposed to “back in the day”…

No, it isn’t, Lynx. Just like God’s Word, medical science is twisted to justify the sin of Homosexuality.

Lynx:

. . .just like other things, such as the world being flat vs round… and for a long time people clung to the “flat world” idea without really reasoning past their own fears and prejudices…

Gotta put that “past their own fears and prejudices” in there, huh? LOL

Fact is, I can’t see ANYWHERE IN HISTORY where any Christian/Jewish history proclaimed that the world was flat, because that would have gone contrary to the Word of God. And I also can’t see ANYWHERE IN HISTORY where any Christian/Jewish history proclaimed that Homosexuality was not a sin.

 

[zachforn]

I’m not willing to have my children grow up in a society which tries to normalize actions that are aborrent to God. Contrary to your liberal thinking, Christians base their worldview on the precepts of God, not whether or not something will affect an individual’s happiness in this world (which is only a secondary, even tertiary, consideration when compared to the former). So your liberal argument has no relevance to me.

I would love if you actually think about this: what do you do that is abhorrent to God that you have normalized?

You seem to want to discuss what Others have done and are doing that is WRONG. But think about what you are doing. Because here is what I know, I know that if you participate in even the most surface level of contemporary American culture you are performing a WRONG . Do you know how plastic are created? The plastics that your computer is built of. Do you know what TSYs are? Do you know what happens when plastics are burned? Do you know what happens when you throw batteries away? Do you know what happens because you want to fill your tank with gas? Do you know ANY of the horrifying consequences your actions lead to? You sit on your computer at your home, do you know what it took, how many people suffered, to mine the specialty metals in your computer? They suffered because you wanted a cheap computer, and so you, YOU, demanded and purchased the efforts of cheap labor. Do you even have the slightest awareness of the history of petroleum production, do you know how many people have died and suffered to produce cheap oil for YOU?

Because, if you don’t (and it doesn’t sound like you do, because if you did you wouldn’t be so eager to throw stones) the information is out there (take a week to research the founding of Exxon Mobile [or any other major oil company] and find out how every time you fill your tank with gas you contribute to the suffering and death of others, I dare you, do it), the information is out there that YOUR behaviors lead to suffering and death of others, so what do you do? Do you continue to rant against others who fit more comfortably your concept of sinner, do you dismiss this argument as just junk? Or do you actually investigate and discover that Yes, In fact YOU do, by your actions, bring on the suffering of others?

What do you do? Huh?

Do you think it is an accident that I came upon this thread, that you joined this forum? Do you think it’s an accident that this subject came up? No, of course not, there are no accidents under God, it’s all planned. So, you have a choice:

1, stop being a hypocrite; stop aiming your analysis of sin at others and start aiming it at yourself; find out the truth of your consequences; Change your life in the face of God’s truth

or

1. respond to this posting with some sort of pseudo-rationalization why you think it’s true that God wants you to ignore your sinning to focus on the sinning of others; respond to this posting with some defensive emotionalism in which you dismiss the truth of your actions and your comfortable lifestyle because you think it’s too inconvenient to change your lifestyle.

What do you do?

Do you want to throw a stone at me, or throw a stone at yourself? And who deserves that stone more?

 

[zachforn]

1. If it’s wrong, I’m wrong not to speak out against it
   [2. If it’s wrong, and I do nothing to correct a fellow-human, I am in sin.

Please read post #250 before you pick up one more stone to hurl at someone.

Advice: focus on YOUR sin and let me worry about mine.
[/quote]

 

[CWBetts]

Please read post #250 before you pick up one more stone to hurl at someone.

Advice: focus on YOUR sin and let me worry about mine.

Though I believe he is lacking in charity, it is in no way wrong to say that something is wrong, provided it is done in charity. We should be willing to accept correction, in order to bring us closer to God. If we are overly defensive, could that not mean that we may be feeling somewhat convicted?

 

[zachforn]

Though I believe he is lacking in charity, it is in no way wrong to say that something is wrong, provided it is done in charity. We should be willing to accept correction, in order to bring us closer to God. If we are overly defensive, could that not mean that we may be feeling somewhat convicted?

I would agree. And there is certainly a level of defensiveness in most of this thread dealing with the issue of gay rights.

 

[Lynxdk]

Now, I’m not trying to equate humans to dogs, but if you said “When someone loves a dog, and wants to care for that dog, and allow that dog to care for him (in whatever capacity it can), and allow them to be in whatever relationship that they want to, regardless of the fact that one is a dog, and another is a human”, you can see that your statement is just pure bunk.

That’s an absurd example, and I think you well know it, putting words in my mouth, you should be ashamed of yourself ~grinz teasingly~

Love is a CHOICE, just like homosexuality. You can love someone, or you can choose to NOT love someone. The absence of love would be the presence of hate (not hate in the truest of senses where you actively search to destroy someone).

God uses the word “hate” just that way: “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated.” (Romans 9) It just means that God witholds his active love, but allows Esau the providential love which he bestows on us all (rain, sun, etc).

Love ~IS~ a choice, and so I choose to give my love freely, regardless of whether i think someone is wrong or not. God does not actively withhold love from people any more than I do for being who they are, and homosexuality and many other things within that venue of thought in the sense that we’re discussing it here are ~not~, in anyway, a choice on made based on rash decisions and immorality. People are the way they are for good reasons.

Well, it’s a good thing that I’m able to truly discern by God’s Word!!!

Me too =)

Yes, He did.

No he didn’t.

… and with that, I think I’ll stop ~laughs~ I very much enjoyed your sharing, PEPCIS, and you’ve given me much to think about, but for now I expect we’ll just keep going back and forth over the same issues and things and never really get anywhere with it, so I’ll bow out and leave the floor to other folks =)

God bless you =)

 

[CWBetts]

I would agree. And there is certainly a level of defensiveness in most of this thread dealing with the issue of gay rights.

You do understand that I am 100% opposed to homosexual “marriage”? I believe we should help homosexuals deal with this particular cross, but homosexual activity is not to be condoned.

 

[zachforn]

You do understand that I am 100% opposed to homosexual “marriage”? I believe we should help homosexuals deal with this particular cross, but homosexual activity is not to be condoned.

That’s fine. I was just agreeing with you that many, many, many people on this forum are very, very, very defensive.

I would also ask you about your All-Adam-and-Eve-did-was-eat-a-piece-of-fruit footer quote:

What are your sins? What actions do you take, what behaviors do you exhibit that cause the suffering and death of others? Shouldn’t you be more focused on your sin and changing your life to better align with God’s truth and mercy than hurling stones at what homosexuals do. And if you continue to be “opposed” to the sins of others, while not being opposed to your own sins are you just being a run-of-the-mill hypocrite?

If sinning, or the lack of sinning, is the criteria for having the legal right to do something (like marrying), then do you, who are a sinner as bad as any homosexual, do you have any rights to marriage? This is a serious issue. Why don’t your sins deny you your legal rights?

 

[Axion]

One doesn’t choose to be a homosexual, one ~is~ or ~isn’t~ in much the same one doesn’t choose to be black or white, Asian or Hispanic, a boy or a girl, or something in between. One doesn’t choose to be born with deformities and other birth defects,

So, you guys believe God created everyone, yes?
So, surely, he made gay people? Hm, so he made gay people, but he doesn’t want them to BE gay?

These are the two big twists of the argument that lead to the current culture of persecuting people who disagree with the “gay” lifestyle.

The CLAIM is made that gays are an involuntary “minority group” like black people or jews or the disabled, and that not supporting their lifestyle is discrimination. the “Discriminators” can then be made subject to legal and other penalties.

However this is completely unproven. In fact there is no reason not to believe the biblical teaching that homosexuality, like promiscuity, a liking for other sexual habits, or even a liking for chocolate, is a VOLUNTARILY CHOSEN BEHAVIOUR OR PREFERENCE. As such, others are not placed under any obligation to be forced into accepting, approving and validating that behaviour preference - as the homosexual lobby demands.

And even were it to be proved that homosexuality were somehow passed down in the genes (how?) that would still not justify handing of children over to practising homosexual couples to raise, simply because the rights of the child to a normal parental upbringing should be paramount over satisfying the wants of adults.

 

[CWBetts]

That’s fine. I was just agreeing with you that many, many, many people on this forum are very, very, very defensive.

I would also ask you about your All-Adam-and-Eve-did-was-eat-a-piece-of-fruit footer quote:

What are your sins? What actions do you take, what behaviors do you exhibit that cause the suffering and death of others? Shouldn’t you be more focused on your sin and changing your life to better align with God’s truth and mercy than hurling stones at what homosexuals do. And if you continue to be “opposed” to the sins of others, while not being opposed to your own sins are you just being a run-of-the-mill hypocrite?

If sinning, or the lack of sinning, is the criteria for having the legal right to do something (like marrying), then do you, who are a sinner as bad as any homosexual, do you have any rights to marriage? This is a serious issue. Why don’t your sins deny you your legal rights?

I have not hurled stones. Identifying homosexuality as sinful is not hurling stones. Passing judgement on homosexuals would be. I contend that we should help homosexuals bear theor cross, supporting them, encouraging chastitiy (which we should all do) and so on. For the record, heterosexual activity in the wrong context is just as wrong. The reason that homosexual activity should not be legitimicized is the simple fact that it goes directly against God’s design. Sexual activity should never be conducted in a manner that would make conception impossible. THe act of love must never be separated from procreation and vise versa. Legal recognition of homosexual couples sends the message that there is nothing wrong with it. As far as my sins, I know that I am a sinful creature, and I am constantly trying to live up to the standard of holiness, and always fall short, to my shame. Recognition of homosexual couples would go agianst this principle. We must strive to live holy lives, and not force acceptance of that behevior which is evil.