The issue of gay intolerance

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And just to back up a little bit, No, I ~can’t~ control what other people think and do. By my expressions and language and actions, however, I can set a good example that I can hope might be followed. History has shown time and again what happens when one group of people try to control another, and history keeps repeating because people don’t learn for the lessons of the past, including the lessons of the Bible.

I am one person, God will judge me as an individual, not on the collection of people I associate myself with.
but you will be influenced by the actions of those people, just as you hope to influence the actions of others. In order to show the world that our faith is real, and not just some made up religion, we cannot, we must not, allow the world to dictate to us what is right and wrong. We must dictate to them what is right and wrong and never waver.
 
but you will be influenced by the actions of those people, just as you hope to influence the actions of others. In order to show the world that our faith is real, and not just some made up religion, we cannot, we must not, allow the world to dictate to us what is right and wrong. We must dictate to them what is right and wrong and never waver.
Dictate? Are you sure? Because that’s what it comes out as, doing it that way.

I’m not asking you to waver on what is right, I’m asking you to waver on what is wrong. You can’t force people to love God.
 
Why do you make the assumption that I’m not open to them? When I am?

Where is my Sin? that’s the first question that you have yet to answer, And why do you think you have to judge it in the first place when Jesus already said that’s not your job?

If you’re acting out homosexually, that’s the sin, but I’m not talking about you in particular, I was talking about the sin of homosexuality. Where did Jesus say I couldn’t judge a sin? We are supposed to point out to people when they sin, so that they have a chance to realize it and turn away from it. If we truly care about people, that is our obligation as Christians.

I’m not trying to mock you, or just sit here and argue endlessly as if I’m being stubborn, I just think it’s funny how much I keep telling you the same thing you’re trying to tell me =)

It’s intolerant to get in the way of these things. That’s just how it is. Everything you have to say against it is on very shaky moral grounds, because you have nothing to really stand on, ~especially~ with people who will refuse to listen to anything you might have to say that’s ~right~ for them because you only tell them everything they know is ~wrong~ when it’s ~not~, so instead of them being able to hear you when you tell them the ~right~ things, they’re already ignoring you because you judged everything they know as wrong, when there’s plenty they were doing ~right~.

It’s not a battle you can win, because it’s on legal grounds, and the more you try to fight it that way, the more of a rift you put between them and you.

True it probably isn’t a battle we can win. I can only tell them the truth, and if they don’t want to hear it, then they won’t. So as Catholic Christians we should sit back and do nothing? Even if other “fringe” groups want to claim their rights?

How do I point out the things they’re doing right when I don’t know them? I just see how they are trying to change the definition of marriage, what it has always been and what God means for it to be?

I see kids being forced to read books on homosexuality in schools, learning that it’s okay. That goes against the morals and values I would teach them. And their decision doesn’t infringe upon me in any way?

This is silly, really, because we’re not talking about the same thing and I should know better than to keep coming back and arguing when you don’t see the point of what I’m saying.

Sorry if I’m not seeing your point, but I hope the above answers show that I do see your point, we just have different ones.
Please see my answers in blue above. It didn’t come out exactly like I wanted. 🤷
 
I can only tell them the truth, and if they don’t want to hear it, then they won’t.
God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple, what good did that do? It’s Human Nature. The more you tell them it’s wrong, the more they’re gonna do it just to spite you.

They don’t want to hear it, they’ve already said so. What good does telling them again and again? None. It does no good at all, in fact it does quite the opposite. That’s why Paul said what he came to say in the places he did, then turned around and left saying “Who am I to judge?” (Yes, I’m paraphrasing a bit, sue me =P )
True it probably isn’t a battle we can win. I can only tell them the truth, and if they don’t want to hear it, then they won’t. So as Catholic Christians we should sit back and do nothing? Even if other “fringe” groups want to claim their rights?
When it comes to something that’s completely wrong, don’t back down. Pick your battles better.
How do I point out the things they’re doing right when I don’t know them?
Look for them.
I just see how they are trying to change the definition of marriage, what it has always been and what God means for it to be?
When they come in the church asking for Holy Matrimony, I’ll turn around and say “H*** No” with you. They’re redefining Civil Unions ~not~ Holy Matrimony.
I see kids being forced to read books on homosexuality in schools, learning that it’s okay. That goes against the morals and values I would teach them. And their decision doesn’t infringe upon me in any way?
I live with someone. I infringe on her, and she on me, even sometimes in our personal spaces. The moment you have more than one person in the same space as you’re in, you risk having someone infringing on you.

Read the books they make your kids read, and them go through them and Tell them what’s ok and what’s not. What you teach the is up to you, really, but I would teach mine that it’s not wrong to have thoughts and feelings, it’s not wrong to be gay, but sex outside of Holy Matrimony is (my daughter being Catholic).

But I also know I can’t stop her from making her own choices, and I would rather she felt she could come and talk to me about them, even when they’re wrong, than to tell me to go to h*** because I kept telling her over and over that’s where she was going if she didn’t do as I said. At some point, you gotta stop saying it for them to even listen to you again.

hmmm… where can I find a good example of that… ~thinkin~
 
God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple, what good did that do? It’s Human Nature. The more you tell them it’s wrong, the more they’re gonna do it just to spite you.

They don’t want to hear it, they’ve already said so. What good does telling them again and again? None. It does no good at all, in fact it does quite the opposite. That’s why Paul said what he came to say in the places he did, then turned around and left saying “Who am I to judge?” (Yes, I’m paraphrasing a bit, sue me =P )

When it comes to something that’s completely wrong, don’t back down. Pick your battles better.

Look for them.

When they come in the church asking for Holy Matrimony, I’ll turn around and say “H*** No” with you. They’re redefining Civil Unions ~not~ Holy Matrimony.

I live with someone. I infringe on her, and she on me, even sometimes in our personal spaces. The moment you have more than one person in the same space as you’re in, you risk having someone infringing on you.

Read the books they make your kids read, and them go through them and Tell them what’s ok and what’s not. What you teach the is up to you, really, but I would teach mine that it’s not wrong to have thoughts and feelings, it’s not wrong to be gay, but sex outside of Holy Matrimony is (my daughter being Catholic).

But I also know I can’t stop her from making her own choices, and I would rather she felt she could come and talk to me about them, even when they’re wrong, than to tell me to go to h*** because I kept telling her over and over that’s where she was going if she didn’t do as I said. At some point, you gotta stop saying it for them to even listen to you again.

hmmm… where can I find a good example of that… ~thinkin~
If I was talking to a gay person (unless they wanted to know in depth what my views were) or my son or daughter about my values concerning gay sex or sex in general, I would not tell them over and over how wrong it is, I would say it once or if a lot of time goes by, twice if they needed to hear it. We are in a debate on this forum, and that is quite different. I have a response to your response and vice versa, that’s what a debate should be.

Could you tell me which verse that is about Paul saying what he did? I would be quite interested.
Thanks.

The Catholic church judges sin in case you haven’t read their position on homosexuality yet.

In regards to judging something a sin, how can we know if it’s a sin or harms us in some way if we don’t first judge that it is wrong and not good for us collectively? And how we judge something a sin is acquired in the Bible. Remember God never said anything about pedophila being a sin in the bible, but we know it harms a child and the perpetrator, thus sin. And homosexuality was mentioned as sin in the bible.
 
In Canada children are being taught that homosexuality is a viable alternative lifestyle.That you shouldn`t knock it if you havent tried it. A Scandanavian study showed that practicing homosexual men had an average lifespan almost 20 years shorter than heterosexuals. I wonder if smoking showed a similer shortend life span ,would our Canadian schools endorse it as a viable alternative lifestyle? Not likely! The real intolerence here is that children are being denied the right to both a father and a mother when adopted by homosexuals.
 
As much as I really enjoy hearing what you have to say, at some point I really have to stop coming back, at least till the weekend when I have more time, but I’m really gonna try this time 😉

but I did wanna answer what you specifically asked as to what I meant.
Could you tell me which verse that is about Paul saying what he did? I would be quite interested.
Thanks.
Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

As I said, I was paraphrasing, perhaps poorly if you’re inclined to judge 😉 but I did say so.

And, since I had it open:
Remember God never said anything about pedophila being a sin in the bible, but we know it harms a child and the perpetrator, thus sin.
Matthew 18:6 would about cover it.
 
As much as I really enjoy hearing what you have to say, at some point I really have to stop coming back, at least till the weekend when I have more time, but I’m really gonna try this time 😉

but I did wanna answer what you specifically asked as to what I meant.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

As I said, I was paraphrasing, perhaps poorly if you’re inclined to judge 😉 but I did say so.

And, since I had it open:

Matthew 18:6 would about cover it.
It says “whosoever” thou judgest. I am judging the sin.

We must judge a sin to be sin so that our society won’t be overrun by immorality. Laws are already in place to protect us from certain deviant behaviors or sins like pedophilia, incestual relationships and polygamy, for the common good of the society.
 
Lynx - I pray you don’t stop looking for answers - the answers through prayer and study actually lie within you and your past. Exodus is an excellent resource as is New Hope Ministries, PFOX and so many others. What you suffer is called same-sex attraction and actually only a symptom of deeper unmet homo-emotional needs.

Society labels you homosexual but you are not nor is anyone else, nor was anyone created to be such. In fatc the attractions, the strong urges you feel have NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX, and are in NO WAY the flip-side if you will of natural heterosexual attraction. And no amount of wishing it away, even praying it away (God wants first to help you identify and heal your past, your parental relationships, and real needs) no amount of therapy unless it is guided by a preferably Christian counselor or psychologist who understands same-sex attraction and its causes can help you.
PLEASE KEEP SEARCHING! Email Exodus and Focus on the Family to find resources and help near you.
And may every participant here pray for Lynx!!
God bless you.
sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com
 
In Canada children are being taught that homosexuality is a viable alternative lifestyle.That you shouldn`t knock it if you havent tried it.
Um, that sounds highly unlikely. “Don’t knock it if you haven’t tried it” is a pretty far cry from “live and let live,” which I believe to be a more accurate paraphrase of what is being taught in (parts of) Canada.
A Scandanavian study showed that practicing homosexual men had an average lifespan almost 20 years shorter than heterosexuals.
And what were the confounding factors? For example, it is a pretty established fact that persecuted minorities are more susceptible to stress-related disorders, and that stress-related disorders can damage the immune system, and lead to other life-shortening disorders.

Also, I can name several other groups of men with a shortened (in some cases by much more than 20 years) life expectancy: African-American men; men with Muscular Dystrophy; men in certain high-risk jobs; men who live in extreme climate zones… A shortened lifespan does not necessarily mean a less valuable life.
I wonder if smoking showed a similer shortend life span ,would our Canadian schools endorse it as a viable alternative lifestyle? Not likely!
The evidence for that is already in. And no, of course the Canadian school system doesn’t endorse smoking. They also don’t endorse taking away the civil rights of smokers, even if you feel that smoking is sinful (a case that is easy to make if you consider damaging the Temple of your own body as sinful, and also if you consider knowingly risking the health of all who breath around you as sinful).
The real intolerence here is that children are being denied the right to both a father and a mother when adopted by homosexuals.
So, homosexuals are rushing out to adopt children who otherwise would all be adopted by 2-parent families? There is no backlog of children in the system waiting for permanent homes or even foster homes outside of an institutional setting? Furthermore, homosexuals do not frequently apply to adopt older children, children with disabilities, mixed-race children, and other hard-to-place kids who might otherwise never make it out of the institutional setting? And in conclusion, similar to homosexual couples, single parents (an inherently single-sex-headed household) are therefore also not a valid option for these children?
 
Lynx - I pray you don’t stop looking for answers - the answers through prayer and study actually lie within you and your past. Exodus is an excellent resource as is New Hope Ministries, PFOX and so many others. What you suffer is called same-sex attraction and actually only a symptom of deeper unmet homo-emotional needs.

Society labels you homosexual but you are not nor is anyone else, nor was anyone created to be such. In fatc the attractions, the strong urges you feel have NOTHING TO DO WITH SEX, and are in NO WAY the flip-side if you will of natural heterosexual attraction. And no amount of wishing it away, even praying it away (God wants first to help you identify and heal your past, your parental relationships, and real needs) no amount of therapy unless it is guided by a preferably Christian counselor or psychologist who understands same-sex attraction and its causes can help you.
PLEASE KEEP SEARCHING! Email Exodus and Focus on the Family to find resources and help near you.
And may every participant here pray for Lynx!!
God bless you.
sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com
Very good post. I have been involved with Exodus and Courage - very good organizations to help the SSA struggler. So true that one needs to resolve issues of the past first and invite Jesus to come into it in order to be healed, then the feelings should greatly decrease. There are many people who have said in the Exodus group that the big “H” has become a little “h” from experiencing this healing.

You know, so many people don’t realize this, that that is what homosexuality is all about, you need to receive healing of past hurts as I believe this is what causes people to feel same sex attracted. Thank you for your post. 👍
 
Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
I don’t know if Ladybri answered you on this, but it seems that you completely left out the context - which I guess doesn’t surprise me, especially since you already told me that you would not interpret passages the same as us. When you tell me that you will not interpret the passages the same as us, it tells me that you fail to contextualize the passages in question.

More than that, it tells me that you are willful in your ignorance, which is EXACTLY what Paul says typifies those people - verse 19,20: “for God has already shown them…so that they are without excuse”; Their actions are willful and deliberate - verse 25: “Who changed the truth of God into a lie. . and worshipped the creature more than the Creator.”

Such people who willingly abandoned God’s design for their lives are “given up by God unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly.”

Your life exhibits this exact pattern, and it should be a huge bell ringing as it were like a Tornado or Bomb warning, trying to warn you of the judgment that is resting upon your life.

The context of Romans 2 which deals with judgment clearly shows that Paul is talking exactly about this type of person who refuses to interpret the Word consistently as a moral guide, and rejecting the truths of God’s design for their own immoral lifestyle.

Paul says that these people are:

[SIGN]". . . filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, envy; they murder, debate unrighteously, deceving others for personal gain, maligning without concern; whisperers of everything evil. These same people act contrary to what they profess, being Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, having a false understanding of truth and life, breaking covenant with others easily, having no natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: These same people know the judgment of God, and yet they willingly commit such acts, being full worthy of death. They not only do these acts, but have immense pleasure in others that do them." (Romans 1:29-32)[/SIGN]

So, the people Paul is telling not to judge are those who are already standing in judgment for their sins, who have not sought out repentance or salvation. Such people cannot judge others, because they are unrepentant, not because they are sinners.

That is why Paul says “Therefore, you unrepentant man, you are inexcused and unforgiven, condemning yourself. Because when you judge another person, you are condemning yourself for doing the exact same things that they do.”

When I was growing up, the most commonly cited verse in the Bible was John 3:16. But now, with the advent of all manner of evil acts, the most commonly cited verse is Matthew 7:1 and Romans 2:1. But both verses are torn out of context. Throughout the whole of the Bible, God continually tells His people to discern evil and to destroy it. You cannot do that by being tolerant of sin.
 
"jplukenda:
A Scandanavian study showed that practicing homosexual men had an average lifespan almost 20 years shorter than heterosexuals.
And what were the confounding factors?
Uh, that would be “homosexual activities.” I already posted some information which shows that male ejaculation invading the blood stream over-taxes the immune system because the ejaculate is filled with antigens.
fairytail:
. . . it is a pretty established fact that persecuted minorities are more susceptible to stress-related disorders, and that stress-related disorders can damage the immune system, and lead to other life-shortening disorders.
That’s typical behavior from those who commit the sin: blame others for your sin, and don’t become accountable for your own actions. Don’t blame it on the clear, scientific reasons that accompany the behaviors that homosexuals engage in.
 
Very good post. I have been involved with Exodus and Courage - very good organizations to help the SSA struggler. So true that one needs to resolve issues of the past first and invite Jesus to come into it in order to be healed, then the feelings should greatly decrease. There are many people who have said in the Exodus group that the big “H” has become a little “h” from experiencing this healing.

You know, so many people don’t realize this, that that is what homosexuality is all about, you need to receive healing of past hurts as I believe this is what causes people to feel same sex attracted. Thank you for your post. 👍
I’m glad you get it Lady if only Lynx could see it.

If you want to join parents and friends of SSA afflictees (Same-sex Attraction Disorder) please send an email to the sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com. The group formed for and by the Sorrowful Heart of Mary commits to saying just one St. Michael Prayer daily for these souls. SSA victims are not the only ones forced into a closet of sorts, but becasue of miusunderstanding and prejudice, concerned family members are often isolated in their desperate prayers for loved ones. HELP THEM PRAY! SHOW YOUR SUPPORT by EMAILING AND PRAYING THE ST. MICHAEL PRAYER DAILY.
It takes fifteen seconds, just 15 seconds to say. 👍
The group emails only once monthly reminders and they will send you information if you request it. They will also add names to the list of SSA children entrusted to the Sorrowful Heart.

sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com

May God bless those who respond to His Mother’s call.
Sorrowful Heart Society for SSAD
PO Box 201
Johnson City, NY 13790
 
I’m glad you get it Lady if only Lynx could see it.

If you want to join parents and friends of SSA afflictees (Same-sex Attraction Disorder) please send an email to the sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com. The group formed for and by the Sorrowful Heart of Mary commits to saying just one St. Michael Prayer daily for these souls. SSA victims are not the only ones forced into a closet of sorts, but becasue of miusunderstanding and prejudice, concerned family members are often isolated in their desperate prayers for loved ones. HELP THEM PRAY! SHOW YOUR SUPPORT by EMAILING AND PRAYING THE ST. MICHAEL PRAYER DAILY.
It takes fifteen seconds, just 15 seconds to say. 👍
The group emails only once monthly reminders and they will send you information if you request it. They will also add names to the list of SSA children entrusted to the Sorrowful Heart.

sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com

May God bless those who respond to His Mother’s call.
Sorrowful Heart Society for SSAD
PO Box 201
Johnson City, NY 13790
Just sent you an email.
 
I don’t know if Ladybri answered you on this, but it seems that you completely left out the context - which I guess doesn’t surprise me, especially since you already told me that you would not interpret passages the same as us. When you tell me that you will not interpret the passages the same as us, it tells me that you fail to contextualize the passages in question.
Given that you’re a Baptist, and she’s a Catholic, you would take something like Baptism, for example, differently than she would. I view some things differently than you.
More than that, it tells me that you are willful in your ignorance
Maybe I’m coming out of ignorance, rather than willfully staying in it. That would be a more positive way to look at it, I should think, since you don’t know where I was 10 years ago, or 20, perhaps I’m improving. I shouldn’t want to take what you say the wrong way and say “forget it! I quit!” and go back to the way I was, eh?

That’s the problem with judging. You Don’t Know where these people are in their own walk. Denying them what they know to be within their civil rights, because they are a separate people unto themselves, they are not a part of your church, or the Catholic Church, etc… they don’t believe as you do, and telling them they’re wrong, when they know differently, and in the ways that occurs in real life (not on these forums such as we’re discussing, which is why I keep stopping to say “not ~you~ Pepcis”, etc…) is not helping.
That is why Paul says “Therefore, you unrepentant man, you are inexcused and unforgiven, condemning yourself. Because when you judge another person, you are condemning yourself for doing the exact same things that they do.”
Is that Romans 2:1? Because if it is, it’s an excellent example of changing the words around a little so it means what you want it to say, rather than what the quote I gave says, because of a little transposing.
 
Lynx - I pray you don’t stop looking for answers - the answers through prayer and study actually lie within you and your past.
I know, and I won’t =)
Society labels you homosexual
I no longer take offense at labels, or do my best not to, so even with that label I should not feel ashamed for it as some would want to use it against me in the sense that they might want to. A different way of what amounts to similar sentiment that you seem to be expressing I think, although not exactly the same way 😉

I’ll send you an email about some of the rest, since it’s rather off topic 😉
And may every participant here pray for Lynx!!
God bless you.
sorrowfulheart4ssa@yahoo.com
That would be much appreciated in any context, thank you =)
 
That’s typical behavior from those who commit the sin: blame others for your sin, and don’t become accountable for your own actions…
I like your statement, you should check out the thread “Can Catholics in America be Moral?”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=340210

It deals with some issues connected to this thread, tolerating mortal sin and personal responsibility.
 
"ladybri77:
I see kids being forced to read books on homosexuality in schools, learning that it’s okay. That goes against the morals and values I would teach them. And their decision doesn’t infringe upon me in any way?
Read the books they make your kids read, and them go through them and Tell them what’s ok and what’s not. What you teach the is up to you, really…
Excellent response.

It’s not the state’s job to teach Christian values. Believe it or not, that’s the Church’s job. Surely exposing your child to alternative views and allowing them to discern right from wrong for themselves (with your help) can only lead to the strengthening of their faith?

It’s a dangerous path we take when we decide that schools should only teach specific values and the children should follow them unquestioningly. One of the greatest gifts we can have as Christians is the strength and wisdom to challenge and question everything, to learn not to accept what is told to us by the media, the government, our peers, our schools or our culture without first evaluating it through the Gospels with the help of the Holy Spirit & the Church.

By NOT exposing children to homosexuality it is as if we are trying to pretend it doesn’t exist, which will only lead to our children having a distorted view of the world, unable to cope with the realities that face them later in life. Allowing them to see homosexuality from a positive point of view will lead to their being able to relate to homosexuals with loving Christian empathy when they get older.

It’s true, it would be easier for parents in the short term if schools brainwashed kids with the exact messages they want them to hear, but lets not be lazy Christians expecting the schools to do our work for us. Let’s expose them to any and all cultural viewpoints so that they can be cultural critics, let’s encourage them to challenge and think for themselves so that they can have a well-rounded, well-examined faith rather than one which is built upon the shaky ground of ignorance.

End of rant :o
 
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