The issue of gay intolerance

[calamityjames]

Why then do you fight against your faith? A house divided cannot stand.

I’m not fighting against my faith. I think our main disagreement boils down to a difference in opinion over Church and State. Perhaps I can explain myself like this:

As a teenager, I went to a Catholic school. I would not expect a Catholic school to teach homosexuality as something positive, nor would I be very happy if it did. (Although I do think the message of love towards all people should be more influential than condemnation which encourages the bullying of gay pupils, but this is another matter). We were taught Catholic values very clearly and I’m glad we were.

However, if I had attended a government-funded school, I would have had no such expectations. In this situation it would have been up to my family and my parish to teach me about my faith. The government has responsibility for people with a vast range of differing beliefs and practices and must do its best to accommodate people of every race, faith, creed, sexuality etc without favouritism or discrimination (as long as these beliefs do not pose a threat to other people). As such, the government’s moral code must be a basic one, enough to maintain order and freedom but not so severe that it dictates a specific, detailed morality which eveyone is forced to follow. A state school should not instill children with one set of values over another; rather all positions should be given the same credibility to allow people of every creed to be recognised and valued. The government need to remain neutral.

This is what I believe. I’m sorry if that seems to you as though I am “fighting against my faith”, but I wholeheartedly believe that I am not. I just don’t want my faith to be a source of misery to those who have not chosen it.

(NB I know this is outside the scope of this thread but I just thought I’d clarify that issues like abortion are another matter because they DO pose a threat to other people, namely the child.)

 

[calamityjames]

Sorry. I always try to be nice. I do like you, also. I like James, too. But I can’t apologize for my mind coming to logical conclusions and then rhetorically applying them to the debate.

:hug3: I like you too

 

[kall]

Thanks, I’ll check it out.

“*t is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand…The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.”

–John Adams, letter to his son, Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776*

You’re a very dishonest debater PEPCIS, John Adams hated us:

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

AND

“Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?”
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

 

[pyreshadow]

simple issue is in catholic minds, if you’re not catholic and don’t live a catholic life you’re already a sinner. correct me if i am wrong.

point taken, the whole world is not catholic, jew or muslim, with views that gay marriage is wrong or the definition of marriage is only between man and woman and should have no right to try to encourage to have laws to stop such marriages. at least here in the usa. i strongly feel if someone can’t separate church from state needs to move to a country that doesnt. i dont mean it as harsh as is sounds, but im not going around saying that catholics needs to marry gays and change their religion.

that said, any religions is a private group of people. and by law, no one can or the government can force a group of people to accept everyone in their group. wither they are marrying gays or not, or even its a private group of people that only allow one race or sex to enter.

so saying that someone can sue against a business for not hiring a gay versus church not marrying is not a valid way to compare this issue. but, i do understand what you’re trying to say.

strait to the point, if you are gay and want to be part of the catholic church do the programs that attempts you to change. if you dont want to and feel that it is wrong or didnt work, my next best advice is to find something else. they dont want gays in the religion and they have the right to do it. if you are a catholic and in the usa, keep your beliefs to yourself. what i mean by that is dont try to push in laws that’s in your religious views. such marriages, legal 18+ porn, prayers in schools (as in everyone has to do it or listen to prayers by a teacher. i do understand that for the most part it is not that extream. there’s was moment of silence in high school which can be used for quite prayers. i have no problem with that. ), music (as in banning a group)…etc. dont try to force your savings on other people with such laws. you have the right to your beliefs just as much as anyone else in the usa.

a little disclaimer, i dont hate catholics or think that all catholics do the things i have just posted. i think its great that this forum (unless it changed since i’ve been gone) that anyone is allowed here.

 

[pyreshadow]

(NB I know this is outside the scope of this thread but I just thought I’d clarify that issues like abortion are another matter because they DO pose a threat to other people, namely the child.)

just a quick comment in hopes maybe you’ll may see my view for a second. as much as anyone wants to see it black and white, its not. simply put, if i was to ever have a daughter–say 15 yrs old, and lets say abortion is illegal. she’s pregnant and is ashamed for whatever reason and goes to someone that illegally does abortions. she goes for it and two days later dies from a deadly infection. what real mother that really loves her child wants that to happen? it was illegal before, but because of young girl who dont know what they are doing got themselves killed. enough parents complained hard enough to get it to change. and so it did.

it wasnt as quick as i wanted to say it, but to add a note, but i would never do it (abortion). that doesnt mean my possible future daughter wont. protect the lives that are here now and educate to protect those lives that may come in the future is the best way to solve this problem.

 

[ladybri77]

It’s funny, most of the basic laws are already in effect anyway and people complain about pushing Christian values on them when they are already in place to begin with! Like murder, cheating, adultery, and polygamy laws which are already on the books.

Excellent point. I’m sure it will go right over their heads…

 

[CWBetts]

just a quick comment in hopes maybe you’ll may see my view for a second. as much as anyone wants to see it black and white, its not. simply put, if i was to ever have a daughter–say 15 yrs old, and lets say abortion is illegal. she’s pregnant and is ashamed for whatever reason and goes to someone that illegally does abortions. she goes for it and two days later dies from a deadly infection. what real mother that really loves her child wants that to happen? it was illegal before, but because of young girl who dont know what they are doing got themselves killed. enough parents complained hard enough to get it to change. and so it did.

it wasnt as quick as i wanted to say it, but to add a note, but i would never do it (abortion). that doesnt mean my possible future daughter wont. protect the lives that are here now and educate to protect those lives that may come in the future is the best way to solve this problem.

The problem with your scenario is that you are trying to justify somethig which can never be justified. As humans, we are created in the image and likeness of God, which carries with it an inherent dignity. It needs to be respected and protected from conception to natural death. The situation you described is the scenario of a selfish girl. She failed to view the life growing in her as a gift, but rather saw it as an inconvenience that needed to be resolved. Your argument of "I wouldn’t do it personally, but I don’t want to restrict the rights of others is not a new argument. The same thng was said more than 140 years ago, albeit over a different evil: “I wouldn’t own a slave myself, but I wouldn’twant to say others can’t decide for themselves” What we have is a basic disrespect for life.

 

[pyreshadow]

The problem with your scenario is that you are trying to justify somethig which can never be justified. As humans, we are created in the image and likeness of God, which carries with it an inherent dignity. It needs to be respected and protected from conception to natural death. The situation you described is the scenario of a selfish girl. She failed to view the life growing in her as a gift, but rather saw it as an inconvenience that needed to be resolved. Your argument of "I wouldn’t do it personally, but I don’t want to restrict the rights of others is not a new argument. The same thng was said more than 140 years ago, albeit over a different evil: “I wouldn’t own a slave myself, but I wouldn’twant to say others can’t decide for themselves” What we have is a basic disrespect for life.

i understand what you are saying, but i feel strongly about not having dead 15 year b/c she didnt know what she was doing. 15 year old dont think about good and evil (unless catholic or whatever) they think about “i going to get in trouble if my parents find out.” or “my friends at school is going to make fun of me and call me a slut” or “my bf is going to leave me.” not, “i’ll go to hell if i do that.” or “im taking another life away”. brain is not fully developed until 25. the last thing that is developed is the ability to think before you act, even during a panic. yes after it is done, she may think “i took a life away and i feel bad about it”. but at least she can live and think that, not be dead. children makes mistakes and shouldnt have to pay for their life for it.

 

[PEPCIS]

You’re a very dishonest debater PEPCIS, John Adams hated us:

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

AND

“Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?”
-letter to Thomas Jefferson

Liberals. You gotta love 'em. They never seem to be able to keep things in context, whether it’s the Bible, or the word’s of others.

 

[kall]

Superb rebuttal!

 

[calamityjames]

i understand what you are saying, but i feel strongly about not having dead 15 year b/c she didnt know what she was doing. 15 year old dont think about good and evil (unless catholic or whatever) they think about “i going to get in trouble if my parents find out.” or “my friends at school is going to make fun of me and call me a slut” or “my bf is going to leave me.” not, “i’ll go to hell if i do that.” or “im taking another life away”. brain is not fully developed until 25. the last thing that is developed is the ability to think before you act, even during a panic. yes after it is done, she may think “i took a life away and i feel bad about it”. but at least she can live and think that, not be dead. children makes mistakes and shouldnt have to pay for their life for it.

3 possible scenarios:

Girl has baby. lives losts = zero
Girl has illegal abortion and dies. lives lost = two
Girl has abortion and survives. lives lost = one.

Which do you expect Christians to defend, given our belief that all human life is sacred?

I agree there are grey areas. If we are pro-life then we had better be ready to make some changes - we need to make it clear that there is no shame in making mistakes, we need to encourage girls to talk about these issues, we need to provide impeccable pregnancy care & advice, we need to be more open to the use of contraceptives by non-Catholics, and most importantly Christians had better be ready to start adopting some babies.

Might I suggest if anyone wants to continue this discussion that they start another thread?

 

[brandymmiller]

I’m not forcing anything. I’m not making you marry gay people, that would be forcing. I’m not making you accept homosexuality, that would be forcing. You can live your life in any manner you wish, even a Catholic manner. I would just ask the same thing from you. .

To live my life in a Catholic manner, I must not only obey the will of the Lord in all things but work to ensure that others do as well. In fact, Catholic teaching insists that out of love I must always correct with charity the sins of my brother.

Again, do you concern yourself with the moral sins of others, or do you focus on your own mortal sins? And if YOU do not change YOUR lifestyle to better serve God’s mercy and love do you have any right to ask others to do so. If your not doing it, why do you want me to do it.

So, by your reasoning, no one should ever speak out about something that is wrong since they have done something wrong. So based on your own statements, alluding to your earlier example, since clearly you have sinned in your lifetime you need to be silent about the problems of Coca-Cola and whatever other issues you find important. You must never stand up for anything, since you have allowed yourself to be tainted by sin. Is that the gist of what you are saying? Or is it only that you have the right to speak in spite of your sins but we, who do not support those who life a homosexual lifestyle, should be silent?

 

[PEPCIS]

Superb rebuttal!

LOL If you want to engage someone, you don’t do it by calling them a liar.

 

[PEPCIS]

So, by your reasoning, no one should ever speak out about something that is wrong since they have done something wrong. So based on your own statements, alluding to your earlier example, since clearly you have sinned in your lifetime you need to be silent about the problems of Coca-Cola and whatever other issues you find important. You must never stand up for anything, since you have allowed yourself to be tainted by sin. Is that the gist of what you are saying? Or is it only that you have the right to speak in spite of your sins but we, who do not support those who life a homosexual lifestyle, should be silent?

Welcome to the postmodern world where every choice is relative, and only MY choice is correct.

 

[rinnie]

It is sad but true. Everyone wants to hear that they are good, and God loves them and they are getting into heaven. They don’t want to hear that if they sin, that sin can keep them from getting into heaven. Seems to be the devil is sure tricking alot of people.

I would rather have someone hate me for sticking up for God, then to love me for letting them think that the devil isn’t trying to turn them away from God. I figure the hate is worth it, if they at least know the truth, and can turn back to God. Then they can love me in the next world hopefully. It would be worth the hate in this world.

 

[jplukenda]

Relitivity is bunk.,e.g.-A person in a hospital for the insane may sincerly believe that drinking a glass of Draino (caustic drain cleaner) would be fine,but the results would implode their “relative” belief.

 

[brittrossiter]

It is sad but true. Everyone wants to hear that they are good, and God loves them and they are getting into heaven. They don’t want to hear that if they sin, that sin can keep them from getting into heaven. Seems to be the devil is sure tricking alot of people.

I would rather have someone hate me for sticking up for God, then to love me for letting them think that the devil isn’t trying to turn them away from God. I figure the hate is worth it, if they at least know the truth, and can turn back to God. Then they can love me in the next world hopefully. It would be worth the hate in this world.

I can speak to this issue from personal experience – see my prior post here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=180347

I agree with rinnie. I would have never made my way back to the Church if every Catholic I ever encountered had merely buttered me up and told me how much God loved me. Well, of course God loves me, but that’s not the end of the story - He wants me to live in accordance with His principles too, because He knows that’s what’s best for me. (In a similar vein, I love my brother too, and want desperately for him to turn his life around, but the last time I checked he was still a colossal screwup, and until he addresses his issues I will not be letting him housesit for me.)

Sometimes the Truth takes a while to percolate. God works on people in His own time. I had a wide variety of Catholics over many, many years drop messages into my life that eventually took root: childhood priests, folks on Catholic Answers and EWTN, a couple family members, people who in many cases didn’t even think they were speaking to me individually. I may have groused or shrugged my shoulders at the time, but those words laid a wonderful foundation.

 

[kall]

Welcome to the postmodern world where every choice is relative, and only MY choice is correct.

Sort of like people saying “being gay is wrong” and assuming their religious beliefs are infallible to everything and anything

Reminds me of someone who once quoted John Adams in favor of religion…

 

[PEPCIS]

It is sad but true. Everyone wants to hear that they are good, and God loves them and they are getting into heaven. They don’t want to hear that if they sin, that sin can keep them from getting into heaven. Seems to be the devil is sure tricking alot of people.

I would rather have someone hate me for sticking up for God, then to love me for letting them think that the devil isn’t trying to turn them away from God. I figure the hate is worth it, if they at least know the truth, and can turn back to God. Then they can love me in the next world hopefully. It would be worth the hate in this world.

Good points. We must suffer for Christ is our command.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Welcome to the postmodern world where every choice is relative, and only MY choice is correct.

Sort of like people saying “being gay is wrong” and assuming their religious beliefs are infallible to everything and anything.

No, NOTHING like that. Postmodernism is the EQUATING of all choices as being the same. But the funny thing about postmodernists (like YOU) is that postmodernists say one thing out of one side of their mouths, and then claim (out of the other side of their mouths.) that what they just said doesn’t apply to them!

What I was saying was that postmodernists are hypocrites of the highest order.

kall:

Reminds me of someone who once quoted John Adams in favor of religion…

You didn’t read that from my quote.