The Jews are the "Chosen Ones"

[FriendLiiFiRe]

On Good Friday, in mass we read this thing and it said to:

“Pray for the Jews. They are the chosen people.”

Jews don’t accept Jesus and the beliefs of the Catholic Church so why should we pray for them? And if we’re praying for them to go Catholic, why didn’t we say pray for the Hinuds? Or the Atheists?

Uh and if thats not the case well why are we supposed to pray for them?

 

[Lev23]

On Good Friday, in mass we read this thing and it said to:

“Pray for the Jews. They are the chosen people.”

Jews don’t accept Jesus and the beliefs of the Catholic Church so why should we pray for them? And if we’re praying for them to go Catholic, why didn’t we say pray for the Hinuds? Or the Atheists?

Uh and if thats not the case well why are we supposed to pray for them?

You got your NT writngs and OT scriptures from “Jews”. Jesus said salvation is from the Jews. The root of the olive tree Paul describes in Romans is Jewish. There have always been a remnant of Jews, even in the church, and yes, that means Jews today that accept Jesus as their messiah. Yes, it is true that all of the nation of Israel does not yet believe in Jesus, but what other gentile nation has 100% of its people accepting Jesus as their messiah?

So what is your issue?

If your liturgy says to pray for Jews, that is a very God honoring thing to do.

 

[Proletarian]

On Good Friday, in mass we read this thing and it said to:

“Pray for the Jews. They are the chosen people.”

Jews don’t accept Jesus and the beliefs of the Catholic Church so why should we pray for them? And if we’re praying for them to go Catholic, why didn’t we say pray for the Hinuds? Or the Atheists?

We should pray for EVERYONE who is not yet Catholic. Being part of the Catholic Church is the best Chance one has for salvation. Why didn’t the intention ask for prayers for other groups…I don’t know; maybe you should talk to the person who wrote it.

As far as “chosen peoples” are concerned, Christ established a new chosen people; the members of The Catholic Church. So in this sense the Jews are no longer God’s Chosen People; but Im sure they still have a special place in His heart.

 

[Teflon93]

On Good Friday, in mass we read this thing and it said to:

“Pray for the Jews. They are the chosen people.”

Jews don’t accept Jesus and the beliefs of the Catholic Church so why should we pray for them? And if we’re praying for them to go Catholic, why didn’t we say pray for the Hinuds? Or the Atheists?

Uh and if thats not the case well why are we supposed to pray for them?

God has not broken His covenant with the Jewish people. We therefore honor it as well.

 

[bilop]

God has not broken His covenant with the Jewish people. We therefore honor it as well.

But, the Jews that did not accept Jesus broke their Covenant with God. Therefore, they were the Chosen people, they no longer are.
We pray for all non-Catholics to be converted. From the 1962 Good Friday prayers:

1. For the unity of the Church. Let us pray also for heretics and schismatics, that our Lord and God may save them from their errors and be pleased to recall them to our holy Mother the Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, You save all men and will that none should be lost; look down on those who are deceived by the wiles of the devil, that with the evil of heresy removed from their hearts, the erring may repent and return to the unity of Your truth. Through our Lord…

1. For the conversion of the Jews. Let us pray also for the Jews that the Lord our God may take the veil from their hearts and that they also may acknowledge our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, You do not refuse Your mercy even to the Jews; hear the prayers which we offer for the blindness of that people so that they may acknowledge the light of Your truth, which is Christ, and be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord…

1. For the conversion of pagans [Infidelium]: Let us pray also for the pagans, that almighty God may take away iniquity from their hearts, so that they may forsake their idols and be converted to the living and true God and His only Son, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord.

Let us pray: Almighty and everlasting God, You always demand not the death but the life of sinners; in Your goodness hear our prayer; free them from the worship of idols and unite them to Your holy Church for the praise and glory of Your name. Through our Lord…

We pray for Jews, heretics, schismatics, and pagans/infidels. That’s pretty much everyone.

God Bless

 

[Proletarian]

God has not broken His covenant with the Jewish people. We therefore honor it as well.

Since when do multiple covenants exist simultaneously? We are living in the end times, the time of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant does not exist along side the New

 

[Verisimilitude]

Why do you think the Jews were Chosen in the first place?

 

[mercygate]

You got your NT writngs and OT scriptures from “Jews”. Jesus said salvation is from the Jews. The root of the olive tree Paul describes in Romans is Jewish. There have always been a remnant of Jews, even in the church, and yes, that means Jews today that accept Jesus as their messiah. Yes, it is true that all of the nation of Israel does not yet believe in Jesus, but what other gentile nation has 100% of its people accepting Jesus as their messiah?

So what is your issue?

If your liturgy says to pray for Jews, that is a very God honoring thing to do.

Exactly. No Jews, no Jesus. It’s that simple. We are meant to be one. The whole idea of a Messiah is nothing but Jewish. We are commanded to ‘honor our father and mother.’ Jews ARE our father and mother in faith.

 

[Teflon93]

Since when do multiple covenants exist simultaneously? We are living in the end times, the time of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant does not exist along side the New

And yet it does. Take a trip to the Wailing Wall. Are the prayers offered there cast into the void?

 

[Teflon93]

But, the Jews that did not accept Jesus broke their Covenant with God. Therefore, they were the Chosen people, they no longer are.
We pray for all non-Catholics to be converted. From the 1962 Good Friday prayers:

We pray for Jews, heretics, schismatics, and pagans/infidels. That’s pretty much everyone.

God Bless

The Jews have renounced God himself at various points throughout their history (the Golden Calf, etc). They lost the Ark of the Covenant, and the Temple. They endured captivity in Babylon. God remained with them nonetheless.

From the Catechism:

God forms his people Israel

62 After the patriarchs, God formed Israel as his people by freeing them from slavery in Egypt. He established with them the covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law so that they would recognize him and serve him as the one living and true God, the provident Father and just judge, and so that they would look for the promised Savior.20

63 Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the LORD”, and “the first to hear the word of God”,21 the people of “elder brethren” in the faith of Abraham.

64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts.22 The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations.23 Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary.24

We should also note that God keeps His covenants—the covenant with Noah, for example, remains in effect, as per the Catechism:

58 The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel.13 The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchisedek - a figure of Christ - and the upright “Noah, Daniel, and Job”.14 Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to “gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad”.15

This, by the way, is a good teaching to understand before locking horns with fundamentalists who view Revelation as a prophecy of the end of the world rather than as a prediction of the persecution under Nero (because if the former were true God would have abrogated his covenant with Noah).

The Catholic Church clearly believes the covenant with Noah exists perfectly alongside the New Covenant. Why shouldn’t it?

 

[bilop]

The Jews have renounced God himself at various points throughout their history (the Golden Calf, etc). They lost the Ark of the Covenant, and the Temple. They endured captivity in Babylon. God remained with them nonetheless.

From the Catechism:

God forms his people Israel

62 After the patriarchs, God formed Israel as his people by freeing them from slavery in Egypt. He established with them the covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law so that they would recognize him and serve him as the one living and true God, the provident Father and just judge, and so that they would look for the promised Savior.20

63 Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the LORD”, and “the first to hear the word of God”,21 the people of “elder brethren” in the faith of Abraham.

64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts.22 The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations.23 Above all, the poor and humble of the Lord will bear this hope. Such holy women as Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Miriam, Deborah, Hannah, Judith and Esther kept alive the hope of Israel’s salvation. The purest figure among them is Mary.24

We should also note that God keeps His covenants—the covenant with Noah, for example, remains in effect, as per the Catechism:

58 The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel.13 The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchisedek - a figure of Christ - and the upright “Noah, Daniel, and Job”.14 Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to “gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad”.15

This, by the way, is a good teaching to understand before locking horns with fundamentalists who view Revelation as a prophecy of the end of the world rather than as a prediction of the persecution under Nero (because if the former were true God would have abrogated his covenant with Noah).

The Catholic Church clearly believes the covenant with Noah exists perfectly alongside the New Covenant. Why shouldn’t it?

So you’re saying that Jews shouldn’t convert to Catholicism?

How does this square with Jesus being the Messiah? Christ fufilled the Old Covenant and established a new one. Just like he abrograted the old law and established a new law.

Extra Ecclessium nulla salus. There is no “parallel path” to salvation.

God Bless

 

[Teflon93]

So you’re saying that Jews shouldn’t convert to Catholicism?

How does this square with Jesus being the Messiah? Christ fufilled the Old Covenant and established a new one. Just like he abrograted the old law and established a new law.

Extra Ecclessium nulla salus. There is no “parallel path” to salvation.

God Bless

I’m not saying anything of the sort. I am a Catholic. I believe everyone should be a Catholic.

God’s mercy is infinite, however, and the fact that the Jews were quite obviously His chosen people provides ample reason to suspect that He may treat them even more mercifully than other non-Christians.

You claimed that covenants may not exist simultaneously; I have provided proof that the Catholic Church maintains otherwise, at least regarding God’s assurance to Noah that He would not destroy the world again. I have also provided evidence the Catholic Church recognizes the Jews as God’s chosen people.

I do not maintain that it is not necessary to be in full communion with the Catholic Church for the fulness of salvation; I maintain (as the Church does) that we cannot know for certain whom God will save and whom He will not, and trust in His mercy and judgment.

If Marcus Aurelius and other noble pagans find a place in heaven, I certainly hope Elijah, Abraham, Noah, and other righteous Jews have as well.

 

[bilop]

I’m not saying anything of the sort. I am a Catholic. I believe everyone should be a Catholic.

God’s mercy is infinite, however, and the fact that the Jews were quite obviously His chosen people provides ample reason to suspect that He may treat them even more mercifully than other non-Christians.

You claimed that covenants may not exist simultaneously; I have provided proof that the Catholic Church maintains otherwise, at least regarding God’s assurance to Noah that He would not destroy the world again. I have also provided evidence the Catholic Church recognizes the Jews as God’s chosen people.

I do not maintain that it is not necessary to be in full communion with the Catholic Church for the fulness of salvation; I maintain (as the Church does) that we cannot know for certain whom God will save and whom He will not, and trust in His mercy and judgment.

If Marcus Aurelius and other noble pagans find a place in heaven, I certainly hope Elijah, Abraham, Noah, and other righteous Jews have as well.

Well the righteous Jews of the Old Testament are assuredly saved, as we know Jesus descended to Limbo Patrum to take them to Heaven. So Elijah, Abraham and Noah are fine.

The question would be Jews who lived after Christ’s Resurrection. They can not be saved by the old Covenant, only by Christ.

God Bless

 

[Teflon93]

Well the righteous Jews of the Old Testament are assuredly saved, as we know Jesus descended to Limbo Patrum to take them to Heaven. So Elijah, Abraham and Noah are fine.

The question would be Jews who lived after Christ’s Resurrection. They can not be saved by the old Covenant, only by Christ.

God Bless

Not to put too fine a point on things as this is not a salvation thread, but how do you respond to this Catechism excerpt (emphasis mine):

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, “the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men.” “Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,” the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings “are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way.”

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).

 

[Calvinator]

Not to put too fine a point on things as this is not a salvation thread, but how do you respond to this Catechism excerpt (emphasis mine):

121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, “the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men.” “Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,” the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings “are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way.”

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism).

What exactly is the old covenant?

Biblically, it is the mosaic law and if your church teaches that the Mosaic law is salvific for anyone…well, your church errs greatly.

Plus, historically, your church has not taught that the law of Moses was still in effect after the beginning of the new and better covenant.

 

[Teflon93]

What exactly is the old covenant?

Biblically, it is the mosaic law and if your church teaches that the Mosaic law is salvific for anyone…well, your church errs greatly.

Plus, historically, your church has not taught that the law of Moses was still in effect after the beginning of the new and better covenant.

Does your church not teach the Ten Commandments? It that not Mosaic Law?

 

[mercygate]

Does your church not teach the Ten Commandments? It that not Mosaic Law?

Even so, the law does not save us.

And there are some strains of Protestantism that believe all of the old Law has been abrogated. They don’t distinguish between moral and ritual law.

 

[Teflon93]

Even so, the law does not save us.

And there are some strains of Protestantism that believe all of the old Law has been abrogated. They don’t distinguish between moral and ritual law.

The law doesn’t have to save us to be the law. Disobeying the Commandments certainly may damn us though, don’t you agree?

 

[Calvinator]

Does your church not teach the Ten Commandments? It that not Mosaic Law?

The ten commandments don’t provide salvation. Following them will not get you into heaven as you can not merit heaven.

I am pretty sure I have read a few articles by Jim Aiken and Karl Keating explaining the rather poor choice of wording your English catechism has chosen regarding the old covenenant and whether it has been revoked or not and they both came to the logical conclusion that the old covenant is not salvific.

I’ll see if I can find it and post a link here.

 

[mercygate]

The law doesn’t have to save us to be the law. Disobeying the Commandments certainly may damn us though, don’t you agree?

Absolutely. (Do I EVER disagree with you, Teflon?)