The Jews back in the land of Israel is ordained by God.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lev23
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Lev23

Guest
Here are a few points I made on this topic in another thread.

The God of Israel is always calling the Jews back to him. Especially now since Jews from all over the world can come up from their graves(nations) and come back into the land. This is what Ezekiel 36 and 37 spells out. This is not talking about the Jews return from Babylon, for the remnant, that is God’s faithful remnant of Israel longed to come back to Israel to rebuild Jerusalem, etc. And they did. The House of Israel in Ezekiel 36 and 37 are described as dry, dead bones with no life, and most importantly, no spirit within them.

But St.Paul teaches God always has a faithful remnant of Israel. This remnant is now the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ, who now can stand in victory and rest because all promises of Israel are in Jesus Christ. AMEN!

So the House of Israel described in Ezekiel 36 is Israel outside the Church. We know the remnant of Israel(Church) is not a part of this because notice how God tells Israel in **verse 31 and 32-
Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! **

Face it, this Israel in the land today, no matter how political, secular, and man-made it seems to you or the world, is ordained by God. I bet both dispersions of Israel looked man-made.

I would much rather tell a Jew their God is allowing them back into their land(like prophecy foretells will happen) then saying God is not. By telling them not to bother going back into the land and that the land is “Palestine”, is aiding them in their unbelief.

The Jews today are called out of all nations, in their disbelief, to come back into the land for one purpose only, to repent and turn back to God the way he wants to be known, that is by his only Son, the Jews Messiah, Jesus Christ. We know from prophecy this is the ultimate outcome of the Jews coming back into the land! So the Church right now is in a wonderful and unique time in Her history, where Her eschalogical brethern, the Jews are back in the land and still coming!!! What wonderful works for the Lord he has laid out for us to do unto his brethern, Israel! Let all Christ’s Church be faithful and preach Jesus Christ and him crucified!

:gopray: :gopray2:
 
God has spoke it through his prophets, that he will allow them to come back into the land for HIS HOLY NAMESAKE, not because they deserved it.

Again, it is widely accepted that God allowed man to come into Israel and destroy it and disperse the Jews, so why is it sooooo mockable and hilarious for God to use man to write up and sign some papers to allow the process of the Jews to reenter the land of Israel to ultimately be restored through Jesus Christ?

Obviously they are back into the land because of God’s Grace, we should extend that Grace to them. They are not back in the land so the USA has a alley to fight with against violent Islam. We need to preach Jesus to them, for in Jesus Christ is victory in all things with no need for violence.

The Church should be proclaiming to all the nations what God is doing for the House of Israel today. And what he is doing for them is not for Israels sake, but so the nations know that he is the Lord.

**Ezekiel 36:16-23
Again the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes. **
 
Quote taken from the “islamic claim to the Temple Mount” thread post#103-
ralphinal said:
Because what lesson did the Jews learn? They always lose the land when they lose their relationship with God, and they get it back when they get it back. Contact some of the Jewish posters on here like Sephardic or Valke. Isreal is more secular than religious. Besides, if there is no name on heaven or earth but jesus in whom there is salvation, then why does it matter where the Jews are. I see no reason to think that the Jews have learned from the last dispersion and turned back 100% to God.

Yes, my first part was sarcastic. It was intentional. How can you be so sure that this was God’s time-line and not man’s? How can you be certain that now is when God wants them there?
Click to expand...
St.Paul said we, that is the Church, are to make Israel jealous for their God, how can we do this if we can’t even say God does not want them in their land he gave to their forefathers? Should the Church side with the world and aid unbelieving Israel that the Exodus out of Egypt and ultimately into the land of Israel was all fairy tales?

It is easy for us gentiles who came into the Church to say it doesn’t matter what country you live in when you get saved, for we do not have the Exodus happen to us like the Israelites. But the Jews have historically the Exodus event how God brung them out of Egypt into a land he promised to their forefathers. And God did this for them. I know the Mosiac Covenant is no longer and we are in the New Covenant, but does that mean the Exodus has become a myth?

Jesus Christ preached to Jews in Israel, because that was their nation, and Jews are supposed to believe and have faith that God did deliver them out of Egypt. It is ALWAYS sad for Israel to come to the terms that not all Israel are in the land and are scattered among the nations.

St.James even addresses his epistle to those-
James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.

As to how do I know for sure if this is man’s timeline or God’s timeline, well as fast as the Jews started filing back into the land, once they declared themselves independent from all nations, the world lashed back.

The Jews wanting to live separately apart from all other nations in the land giving to thier forefathers by God(that is to believe the Exodus event) is a heck of a step for them to learn who their Messiah really is than being dispersed among nations where they profaned his name and were persecuted.
 
My whole point on this is simple: how can we say that this was God’s time and not man’s time?
 
ralphinal said:
My whole point on this is simple: how can we say that this was God’s time and not man’s time?
Click to expand...
Because for the first time in over 1900 years, the Church in Israel can live among their brethern and work the Gospel among them, much like the first Church in the time of the Apostles. Yes, there is persecution among them, but there is also peace between the Messianic and non- Messianic Israelis.

After the dispersion, it was nearly impossible for the Jewish Christians to live among their brethern scattered about the nations. This was because of the Jewish religious leaders chose their own Messiah to revolt against the Romans, and among other things.

But the Holy Spirit is at work again among the Jews in the land of Israel.

Amen!
 
Hisalone said:
Gods everlasting covenant is just that —everlasting.
Click to expand...
Agreed, and I have never said otherwise. However, Biblically speaking, every time they were kicked out, God had them come back only when they had repented of the failure to follow Him. Is that the case this time?
 
Lev23 said:
Because for the first time in over 1900 years, the Church in Israel can live among their brethern and work the Gospel among them, much like the first Church in the time of the Apostles. Yes, there is persecution among them, but there is also peace between the Messianic and non- Messianic Israelis.

After the dispersion, it was nearly impossible for the Jewish Christians to live among their brethern scattered about the nations. This was because of the Jewish religious leaders chose their own Messiah to revolt against the Romans, and among other things.

But the Holy Spirit is at work again among the Jews in the land of Israel.

Amen!
Click to expand...
Again, how do you know that this was God’s time-line and not man’s? God can still use it for good, but that does not mean that this is his time-line.
 
ralphinal said:
Agreed, and I have never said otherwise. However, Biblically speaking, every time they were kicked out, God had them come back only when they had repented of the failure to follow Him. Is that the case this time?
Click to expand...
Time and time again this has been true - Lev23, I think it’s a point worth exploring.
 
mattkubes said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralphinal
Agreed, and I have never said otherwise. However, Biblically speaking, every time they were kicked out, God had them come back only when they had repented of the failure to follow Him. Is that the case this time?
Time and time again this has been true - Lev23, I think it’s a point worth exploring.
Click to expand...
We know only repentence to God is through Jesus Christ. This will be the ultimate outcome of the Jews in the land, when they repent of their ways, call out for and look on the one who they pierced and believe.

This is happening now with the work of the Church and will conclude when Jesus comes back to Jerusalem.
 
Lev23 said:
We know only repentence to God is through Jesus Christ. This will be the ultimate outcome of the Jews in the land, when they repent of their ways, call out for and look on the one who they pierced and believe.

This is happening now with the work of the Church and will conclude when Jesus comes back to Jerusalem.
Click to expand...
Do you think that this is a sign that the end is near? Will rebuilding the temple speed the end of the world?
 
**Hello,

Originally, the message of the Jews were in what form? A written book by Moses (on him peace)? Was anything ever written down to verify what you claim as truth? Where are the books of Moses? To claim Ezekiel’s, that too must be known as to where the information originated from.

americanrevert**
 
Americanrevert said:
Originally, the message of the Jews were in what form? A written book by Moses (on him peace)? Was anything ever written down to verify what you claim as truth? Where are the books of Moses? To claim Ezekiel’s, that too must be known as to where the information originated from.
Click to expand...
Do you mean things like manuscripts? There were some very ancient manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls that more or less prove that the books we have today contain the same words as the books they had then (all the books of the Torah and Ezekiel are included in the findings). Or do you mean things like the commandment stones? Because…well, I personally don’t know where the Ark of the Covenant is 😉 Could you clarify?
 
**by Matt
I personally don’t know where the Ark of the Covenant is Could you clarify?
Click to expand...
Not everything was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The message of of their claimed religion was in oral form. Nothing was written down.~~until later. In saying this, they cannot prove 100% that what they have today is the original either. This is my point. The Torah was not written. The scrolls were not just written in Hebrew, they were in other languages as well like Aramaic, Greek etc. Wonder why…what can this prove …I mean, the message was for whom? One of the scrolls was even debated to be a scroll of the Torah…In saying this, it was pick and choose and guesswork yet again…simply on account of nothing was written down or told to be written down during the witness of the Prophet’s themselves (peace and prayers be upon them all).

.

I don’t know much about the Ak of the Covenant but what Allah says in the Quran. Read below 🙂 (In two parts cuz it wouldn’t all fit so read the following after God willing.

*Those who break Allahs covenant after ratifying it, and sever what Allah has ordered to be joined (as regards Allahs Religion of Islamic Monotheism, and to practise its legal laws on the earth and also as regards keeping good relations with kith and kin ), and do mischief on earth, it is they who are the losers. *

O Children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfill (your obligations to) My Covenant (with you) so that I fulfill (My Obligations to) your covenant (with Me), and fear none but Me.

O Children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you to the Alameen (mankind and jinns) (of your time period, in the past).

*And they (Jews) say, “The Fire (i.e. Hell-fire on the Day of Resurrection) shall not touch us but for a few numbered days.” Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): “Have you taken a covenant from Allah, so that Allah will not break His covenant? Or is it that you say of Allah what you know not?” *

*And (O Children of Israel, remember) *when We took your covenant and We raised above you the Mount (saying): "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein so that you may become Al-Muttaqoon (the pious - see V.2:2).

And (remember) when We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, (saying): *Worship none but Allah (Alone) and be dutiful and good to parents, and to kindred, and to orphans and Al-Masakeen (the poor), (Tafsir At-Tabaree, Vol. 10, Page 158 (Verse 9:60)) and speak good to people (i.e. enjoin righteousness and forbid evil, and say the truth about Muhammad Peace be upon him ), and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat. Then you slid back, except a few of you, while you are backsliders. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubee, Vol. 2, Page 392). *

And (remember) when We took your covenant (saying): Shed not the blood of your people, nor turn out your own people from their dwellings. Then, (this) you ratified and (to this) you bear witness.

And (remember) when We took your covenant and We raised above you the Mount (saying), "Hold firmly to what We have given you and hear (Our Word). They said, “We have heard and disobeyed.” And their hearts absorbed (the worship of) the calf because of their disbelief. Say: “Worst indeed is that which your faith enjoins on you if you are believers.”

*Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside? Nay! the truth is most of them believe not. *

Those (who embraced Islam from Banee Israel) to whom We gave the Book (the Taurat (Torah)) (or those (Muhammads Peace be upon him companions) to whom We have given the Book (the Quran)) recite it (i.e. obey its orders and follow its teachings) as it should be recited (i.e. followed), they are the ones that believe therein. And whoso disbelieves in it (the Quran), those are they who are the losers. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubee. Vol. 2, Page 95).
**

to be continued …

americanrevert
 
**Hello,

The Continuation…Part 2

O Children of Israel! Remember My Favour which I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you to the Alameen (mankind and jinns) (of your time-period, in the past).

*And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim (Abraham) (i.e., Allah) tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), “Verily, I am going to make you a leader (Prophet) of mankind.” (Ibrahim (Abraham)) said, “And of my offspring (to make leaders).” (Allah) said, “My covenant (Prophethood, etc.) includes not Zalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers).” *

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allah, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and gives the Zakat, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are AlMuttaqoon (pious - see V.2:2).

Ask the Children of Israel how many clear Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We gave them. And whoever changes Allahs Favour after it had come to him, (e.g. renounces the Religion of Allah (Islam) and accepts Kufr (disbelief),) then surely, Allah is Severe in punishment.

Have you not thought about the group of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Musa (Moses)? When they said to a Prophet of theirs, “Appoint for us a king and we will fight in Allahs Way.” He said, “Would you then refrain from fighting, if fighting was prescribed for you?” They said, “Why should we not fight in Allahs Way while we have been driven out of our homes and our children (families have been taken as captives)?” But when fighting was ordered for them, they turned away, all except a few of them. And Allah is All-Aware of the Zalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers).

These are the verses that talk about taking a covenant with Allah…pertaining to the Jews and of course the Prophets of Allah (peace and prayers be upon them all).

americanrevert**
 
mattkubes said:
Do you mean things like manuscripts? There were some very ancient manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls that more or less prove that the books we have today contain the same words as the books they had then (all the books of the Torah and Ezekiel are included in the findings). Or do you mean things like the commandment stones? Because…well, I personally don’t know where the Ark of the Covenant is 😉 Could you clarify?
Click to expand...
Mohammad’s scribes endorsed the Old Testament as the original book given to Moses. If you read the following verses of the Koran, you can clearly see that Muslim scholars are denying their own scripture in order to slander the Torah for its alleged textual corruption:

Surah 10:94
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.

Surah 2:41
And believe in that which I reveal, confirming that which ye possess already, and be not first to disbelieve therein, and part not with My revelations for a trifling price, and keep your duty unto Me.

Surah 28:48-49
But when there came unto them the Truth from Our presence, they said: Why is he not given the like of what was given unto Moses ? Did they not disbelieve in that which was given unto Moses of old ? They say: Two magics that support each other; and they say: Lo! in both we are disbelievers. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Then bring a scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.

Surah 5:43
How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them) ? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers.

Surah 2:89
And **when there cometh unto them a scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession **- though before that they were asking for a signal triumph over those who disbelieved - and when there cometh unto them that which they know (to be the truth) they disbelieve therein. The curse of Allah is on disbelievers.
 
Americanrevert said:
This is my point. The Torah was not written. The scrolls were not just written in Hebrew, they were in other languages as well like Aramaic, Greek etc. Wonder why…what can this prove …I mean, the message was for whom? One of the scrolls was even debated to be a scroll of the Torah…In saying this, it was pick and choose and guesswork yet again…simply on account of nothing was written down or told to be written down during the witness of the Prophet’s themselves (peace and prayers be upon them all).
Click to expand...
I think this is where we have our difference - this argument ONLY works if you’ve already assumed that these were not God’s Words. But that is just an assumption, and not a very valid one. The fact is, if the Torah was the Word of God, then it could have been carried on orally for much longer and still be written down correctly later. Remember, God is omnipotent…getting someone to write things down later on is a piece of cake for Him. Since no reasonable person can be expected to accept that assumption, which completely begs the question, the rest of the argument falls apart!

But I didn’t mention the Dead Sea Scrolls as proof of inspiration, only as proof that our manuscripts have been copied carefully. When the Torah was finally compiled, it used elements from as early as 1000BC…that’s pretty staggering. No, we don’t have these earliest manuscripts, but seeing as they have been passed on correctly for 2200 years already, there’s no reason to assume that anything happened earlier either. The case for it being confused over the course of time is just weak speculation when you consider all the facts.
 
But to be honest, Americanrevert, questions about the authenticity of scripture are not the point of this thread. We’ve hijacked it! If you want to discuss it, I’d suggest you make a new one so that Lev32 can discuss what he meant to discuss.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top