The Killer Law!

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If you are able to save someone’s life, but refuse to do so, that is murder.

zerinus
Ok. an EMT medic goes on a accident. He tries to save the person’s life but person he tried to save dies anyway. So by your premise, the medic **himself is liable to murder **like the doctor who tries to save the life of the mother and baby but the mother dies, yet the baby lives.

Attempting to save a person’s life, a human being is not murder, even if the person they try to save dies.

It’s not murder. Killing a unborn child through an abortion is on the other hand is murder because take is degrading the life of the infant lower than that of the mother. When in fact both life are equally important.

Second, a doctor who tries to save is not refusing. He as a medical profession, has a duty to save people’s life not take them, either they be unborn, disable, or elderly.
 
You are not “murdering an innocent person”. The “innocent person” is going to die anyway.

zerinus
Not necessarily. With God all things are possible, with the exception of the Etopic Pregnancy, The other items mentioned where the life of the mother “may” be in danger is a guess. Abortion would be taking the option of God performing a miracle out of the picture.
 
Just curious, do Catholics approve of the practice of sati? Sati is the Indian practice of widows burning themselves to death at their husband’s funeral pire. The Catholic attitude towards abortion does not seem to me to be much different.

zerinus
 
You are not “murdering an innocent person”. The “innocent person” is going to die anyway.

zerinus
Look, it’s been pointed out to you what the Catholic Church teaches with regard to ectopic pregnancies. Since you can’t point to any situation where abortion is the only alternative, then stop making this argument.
 
Just curious, do Catholics approve of the practice of sati? Sati is the Indian practice of widows burning themselves to death at their husband’s funeral pire. The Catholic attitude towards abortion does not seem to me to be much different.

zerinus
:rotfl:
Now that is funny.
You always know when someone has lost an argument when they start to pull totally unrelated practices into the argument.
 
Just curious, do Catholics approve of the practice of sati? Sati is the Indian practice of widows burning themselves to death at their husband’s funeral pire. The Catholic attitude towards abortion does not seem to me to be much different.

zerinus
What on earth makes you think the mothers life is more valuable than the unborn babies life?

And your comparison makes me wonder if you are on drugs Z. It dont compute.
 
Just curious, do Catholics approve of the practice of sati? Sati is the Indian practice of widows burning themselves to death at their husband’s funeral pire. The Catholic attitude towards abortion does not seem to me to be much different.

zerinus
No. We don’t. We believe that is cruel and unjust.
 
You are not “murdering an innocent person”. The “innocent person” is going to die anyway.

zerinus
Deaths Per Year - Cause
106,000 Non-error, negative effects of drugs
80,000 Infections in hospitals
45,000 Other errors in hospitals
12,000 Unnecessary surgery
7,000 Medication errors in hospitals
250,000 Total deaths per year
Writing in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), Dr. Starfield has documented the tragedy of the traditional medical paradigm
catherinemarie.wordpress.com/2007/05/05/medical-mistakes-a-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-united-states/

Medical Errors - A Leading Cause of Death
The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error,

adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause).
cancure.org/medical_errors.htm
 
You are not “murdering an innocent person”. The “innocent person” is going to die anyway.

zerinus
The doctor isn’t killing the mother. He is trying to save the life of both the mother and child. I don’t know when it was proclaimed by someone that trying to save someone’s life but in the process fails to save the life of the other constitute as murder.

zerinus,

Most of the abortions that have been done in the US has not be in the sole reason of saving a life of a mother, rape, or incests.

Consider the following factors,

A 1998 aggregated study, from 27 countries, on the reasons women seek to terminate their pregnancies concluded that common factors cited to have influenced the abortion decision were:
  1. desire to delay or end childbearing, concern over the interruption of work or education, issues of financial or relationship stability, and perceived immaturity.
A 2004 study in which American women at clinics answered a questionnaire yielded similar results. In Finland and the United States, concern for the health risks posed by pregnancy in individual cases was not a factor commonly given.

However, in Bangladesh, India, and Kenya health concerns were cited by women more frequently as reasons for having an abortion.[7] 1% of women in the 2004 survey-based U.S. study became pregnant as a result of rape and 0.5% as a result of incest.

Now that’s pretty low for justifying it.

[8] Another American study in 2002 **concluded that 54% of women who had an abortion were using a form of contraception at the time of becoming pregnant while 46% were not. **

Inconsistent use was reported by 49% of those using condoms and 76% of those using the combined oral contraceptive pill; 42% of those using condoms reported failure through slipping or breakage.

In the United Kingdom, a 1994 survey of sexual behavior found that women who reported having an abortion were more likely to be of a higher social class, as well as either cohabitating or divorced. It also found that women who stated they have had 10 or more sexual partners in their lifetime were five times more likely to have had an abortion than those who stated they have had only one sexual partner.

There has also been side effects of abortion on women. They suffered what is called Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, or Post Abortion Syndrone.

Dr. Pravin Thevathasan (is a Consultant Psychiatrist in Shrewsbury) states,

The woman experiences the abortion event. There is then a latency period during which she appears to cope well. This is then followed by the person experiencing a cluster of symptoms including intrusive memories and flashbacks of the event, vivid nightmares, repeated reliving of the trauma, a persistent sense of numbness, sleep disturbance, anxiety, depression and suicidal feelings. The psychologically self-protective symptoms include denial and aversion from painful reminders of the trauma. The proposal that Post Abortion Trauma is a form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder has led over the years to the developmentofa number of excellent treatment models.

One of the reasons to justify abortion is the state of the mental health of the woman. There have been women (who went through the abortion process) who testify against abortion. I hardly think abortion itself is pro-woman, but rather it is anti-woman. It degrades the woman’s role in God’s pro-creative plan, and degrades the infant as a mere property of the individual (kinda like a slave).

Abortion is wrong and it should be banned period. If people would have just listen to God not to have pre-marital sins, and become careless about themselves and turn sex as a means of entertaining, none of this would have happen. Yet, people sin. They are lured into this world’s material wants and desires. They replace what is good with evil. Abortion is just one of those manifestations of evil.
 
Zerinus,

Directly killing the mother would be murder, as is directly killing the infant. Look, if you think the infant is an innocent living person, there is no way one can justify directly murdering this baby to save a life.
The underlying cause of zerinus’ abortion argument with Catholics may be that he doesn’t think the infant is an innocent living person. I’m not sure about that because he won’t say one way or the other what he or the LDS believe about when human life begins.
 
The underlying cause of zerinus’ abortion argument with Catholics may be that he doesn’t think the infant is an innocent living person. I’m not sure about that because he won’t say one way or the other what he or the LDS believe about when human life begins.
The problem with that premise is. We aren’t really persons since we too were once conceived as a fertilized egg.

Unborn infants are humans. Life begins at that stage. Even biologist call plants a living orgasm. Though, human are even higher than that of mere plants.
 
The problem with that premise is. We aren’t really persons since we too were once conceived as a fertilized egg.

Unborn infants are humans. Life begins at that stage. Even biologist call plants a living orgasm. Though, human are even higher than that of mere plants.
Try to get an active Mormon to tell you whether a preborn baby is a living human being. In my experience, you won’t get an answer.
 
All of that is a red herring. It is possible to make a law banning all abortions except when the life of the mother is at risk. Why can’t you see that?

zerinus
What about Rape or Deformed Babies??
 
That is not the question. See my last post. It is possible to pass a law banning all abortions, except when the life of the mother is endangered. Why can’t the Catholics see the difference?

zerinus
Can you give an example of where an abortion has saved a life?
I’m an RN, and I can tell you that some babies may have to be delivered early (sometimes too early) due to the health and welfare of the mother. However, that is all together different from an abortion.

I have a grandson that was delivered at 25 weeks gestation. He is just fine.

I have also read the most recent article of the baby who survived at 21 weeks.

There is no justification to abort. To abort means to kill the baby and then deliver, or to rip the baby apart piece by piece until it is killed during the suction of the uterus.

Early delivery may result in the death of the baby, but not the suffering that abortion will cause. If the mother is going to die, then early delivery is required to at least save one patient.

ABORTION IS NEVER REQUIRED!
 
A law passed in Nicaragua last November banning all abortions under any circumstances (even when the life of the mother is at risk) has so far led to (at least) 82 avoidable deaths of pregnant women (and their babies, I presume). Here are some news reports:

ippf.org/NR/exeres/07FDE066-6CB9-4A65-8B72-9F59619D5643.htm
parentdish.com/2007/10/10/abortion-ban-in-nicaragua-leads-to-death/
iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/america/web.1127nicaragua.php

Is this Catholicism?

zerinus
Dear zerinus, why don’t we compare what the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church are doing in Nicaragua right now, in order to prevent any woman to come into the abortion situation? Rather than discussing the outcome of such law, why don’t we discuss how we prevent the abortion case before it has to be taken on the first place?. I am interested to hear what the Mormon are doing right now in Nicaragua rather than just protesting the law.
 
Zerinus is not the first Mormon to make this pro-abort argument. The Mormons are being systematically taught to attack Catholics and promote abortion by misrepresenting Catholic teaching on pro-life issues.

Mormons are quickly becoming the new front-line in pro-abortion propaganda. I have also heard this from my LDS sister who is an RN and from her daughters as well. They are very pro-abortion and justify it by the LDS teaching that a person’s life doesn’t start until birth and the “pre-existent soul” of an aborted baby gets born into another family or even into the same family through a different mother. They wax very romantic about it, saying that if one sister has an abortion, the baby will get born later through one of the other sisters. So they feel that they are not really killing a person, just re-directing it to another mother. How very convenient.

It seems abortion is the new LDS sacrament.

Lord, have mercy! :gopray2:
 
Dear zerinus, why don’t we compare what the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church are doing in Nicaragua right now, in order to prevent any woman to come into the abortion situation? Rather than discussing the outcome of such law, why don’t we discuss how we prevent the abortion case before it has to be taken on the first place?. I am interested to hear what the Mormon are doing right now in Nicaragua rather than just protesting the law.
If you wan to talk about that, you can do so by starting a new thread. I am not stopping you to. I started this thread in order to talk about this subject. Just because you want to talk about that subject, that does not mean that I shouldn’t talk about this one.

zerinus
 
A law passed in Nicaragua last November banning all abortions under any circumstances (even when the life of the mother is at risk) has so far led to (at least) 82 avoidable deaths of pregnant women (and their babies, I presume). Here are some news reports:

ippf.org/NR/exeres/07FDE066-6CB9-4A65-8B72-9F59619D5643.htm
parentdish.com/2007/10/10/abortion-ban-in-nicaragua-leads-to-death/
iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/america/web.1127nicaragua.php

Is this Catholicism?

zerinus
NO, this is not Catholicism.

Nicaraguan law is not in line with Catholic Church teaching. Simply stated, the Church teaches against *direct *abortion. There are some mother’s life-saving procedures, morally permissible for Catholics, that will result in the death of an unborn baby. You might call it indirect abortion and it has been discussed at length in the Moral Theology forum.

zerinus, I just noticed that no one responded directly to your question in the OP.
 
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