T
tee_eff_em
Guest
<<Always and everywhere follows the rubrics to the tee.
tee
- Status
tee
J
Joe_Kelley
Guest
A
Annc
Guest
My parish and most of this diocese stand during the entire Eucharistic prayer. There is no kneeling at all during Mass. The posture people adopt to signal that they are praying is to hunch over their knees while sitting. It is quite frankly, ridiculous. Even hunched over, people will interupt you to say hello before Mass.
I have struggled with this question since moving to this diocese (Richmond VA) one year ago. I have tried to stand with the congregation but not only do I feel disrespectful to Christ when I do so, I feel an urge to kneel that I have to fight during the entire Eucharistic Prayer. So, I kneel. A few others do as well, and several others have told me that they would if their older knees would allow them to. I think something very precious is lost when we stand. We assume equality with God and no longer humble ourselves before him or each other.
I have spoken with various people in the parish, including the Pastoral Associate, I have prayed over this issue, I have researched the Bishops letters, the GIRM, etc. and I remain convinced that kneeling is the right thing to do, it is what Christ asks of me and it is something that I am glad to do. I take seriously the comments I read here that are critical of my position and I stood in the past out of the concern that I was being holier than thou or at least would appear to be so. Kneeling is the outward expression of my interior dispostion and it is the least I can do for my Savior, for all that he suffered on the Cross and all that he has done for me in this life. You bet I am going to kneel.
Our parish and diocese have a very casual approach to Mass. Our parish doesn’t have a sanctuary, we have “worship space” and it looks like a Protestant church inside and out. The main concern seems to be “fellowship” and warm fuzzies rather than worship of Christ and devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. Before Mass it is a noisy, boisterous atmosphere in the “worship space”. The beauty and reverence that should be there is not.
The parishioners do seem to be faithful but very poorly catechised. The Parish has some wonderful ministries that my family and I are involved in. We have a new pastor that I am hopeful will bring more reverence and respect to the Mass. I have found much hostility towards more “traditional” approaches so I just pray for guidance.
God bless!
I have struggled with this question since moving to this diocese (Richmond VA) one year ago. I have tried to stand with the congregation but not only do I feel disrespectful to Christ when I do so, I feel an urge to kneel that I have to fight during the entire Eucharistic Prayer. So, I kneel. A few others do as well, and several others have told me that they would if their older knees would allow them to. I think something very precious is lost when we stand. We assume equality with God and no longer humble ourselves before him or each other.
I have spoken with various people in the parish, including the Pastoral Associate, I have prayed over this issue, I have researched the Bishops letters, the GIRM, etc. and I remain convinced that kneeling is the right thing to do, it is what Christ asks of me and it is something that I am glad to do. I take seriously the comments I read here that are critical of my position and I stood in the past out of the concern that I was being holier than thou or at least would appear to be so. Kneeling is the outward expression of my interior dispostion and it is the least I can do for my Savior, for all that he suffered on the Cross and all that he has done for me in this life. You bet I am going to kneel.
Our parish and diocese have a very casual approach to Mass. Our parish doesn’t have a sanctuary, we have “worship space” and it looks like a Protestant church inside and out. The main concern seems to be “fellowship” and warm fuzzies rather than worship of Christ and devotion to the Blessed Sacrament. Before Mass it is a noisy, boisterous atmosphere in the “worship space”. The beauty and reverence that should be there is not.
The parishioners do seem to be faithful but very poorly catechised. The Parish has some wonderful ministries that my family and I are involved in. We have a new pastor that I am hopeful will bring more reverence and respect to the Mass. I have found much hostility towards more “traditional” approaches so I just pray for guidance.
God bless!
CatholicCajun
New member
Hello and Welcome John-Paul. I am new to this board also. I say if in you heart of hearts you feel that you should kneel, than by all means kneel. I know I would and not give a hoot about what others would think and you may be setting a good example for the Priest and the people. God Bless.
B
Brendan
Guest
The bishop is permitted to mandate that the faithful remain standing from the Agnus Dei until one personly recieved Communion.
We must obey that.
The posture used after a person returns to their pew is a personal choice that the bishop may not regulate.
A person may sit, kneel or stand as they feel appropriate.
C
catechumen08
Guest
Personally, I think kneeling is better. Aside from liturgical concerns, it makes me feel more reverent during Mass. I don’t do it to impress others; I do it, because I feel compelled to do it.
P
PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
This is just not true.
NOT TRUE.
This is a common mistake - please read very carefully. The GIRM states this:
“The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.” (paragraph 43)
The next chronological mention made states “… they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.” (paragraph 43)
The period of sacred silence beings only after the last person has received. It is NOT immediately after one receives.
Therefore, as you can see, the bishop may mandate a posture after the Agnus Dei until the period of sacred silence, the next choronological moment the GIRM mentions, where the GIRM says the faithful can choose a posture.
C
childofmary1143
Guest
Personally I find standing for the Consecration to be bad form. If one can’t kneel for health or space then one should sit. Of course I am speaking for people who are in a pew or have a chair. If one is standing at the back or side of the church due to a large congregation then that is different.
There is no good reason to make people stand during the Consecration in the Pews.
There is no good reason to make people stand during the Consecration in the Pews.
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
*<ahem> *Leaving aside the matter of Eastern Catholics lawfully following the rubrics of their rites
tee
So what you are saying is: There is no good reason to obey your bishop in matters lawfully under his authority?
tee
B
Brendan
Guest
PGA,
I suggest you do more research before you make such a claim.
In 2003, Cardinal George, acting as the President of the USCCB, requested a clarification of the GIRM on this matter.
Here is the response he recieved, as published in the July 2003, USCCB newsletter.
adoremus.org/Kneeling-CDW-response03.html
Since Cardinal George was acting in the name of the USCCB, this ruling applies to the entire US, and as such, no indiviual bishop may override it.
B
Brendan
Guest
Here is another article that also includes some of the debate the US bishops had on the issue when they approved GIRM 43
adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html
adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html
P
PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
What do you not understand about the language “so rigidly”?
It says it should not be enforced “so rigidly”. Period.
The Cardinal never said choose your own posture. He said that it should not be enforced rigidly - meaning, no, we won’t go pull you up by the arms and yell “On your feet!”
It’s kinda like the speed limit - 25 doesn’t mean you can legally go 30 - however, you are unlikely to get a ticket for going 30 because in most places the police do not enforce the speed limit “so rigidly” as to ticket those going only a few miles over the posted limit. But that doesn’t make 30 legal.
P
PaixGioiaAmor
Guest
By the way - before he says all that, he talks about the importance of unity of posture. Meaning, that if everyone else is standing, it’s clearly not PREFERABLE to be doing your own thing.
A
Annc
Guest
I am looking forward to the day when the Bishop(s) who mandates standing during the Eucharstic Prayer and after the
Agnus Dei retire and are replaced by those with a more reverent attitude toward the Eucharist. I think that the GIRM is clear in that it gives the bishop some discretion but when you take that document along with other documents and teachings on the Eucharist, you are being deliberately hard headed to think that standing is as reverent as kneeling. My experience is that when there is no kneeling during Mass the congregation is more focused on themselves, their comfort and being warm and welcoming. Fellowship is a big word here. Everything they do is to promote fellowship. My parish uses that word more than the words Eucharist or Mass.
At least at the parish level, there is a very poor understanding of the Eucharist and the issue of standing is just one sign of that ignorance. Until our new pastor arrived the Communion cups were not purified before being removed from the altar and it was left for an EME to do so in the Sacristy. In addition, the Ciborium was not returned to the tabernacle until after Mass. That was just pure disrespect, desecration, etc.
By the way, I have no idea what the Bishop has mandated. I have asked about the practice of standing and the answer is “that is what we were taught”. I believe that the faithful are not to be forbidden to kneel even if the norm is otherwise. I could be mistaken.
Peace.
Agnus Dei retire and are replaced by those with a more reverent attitude toward the Eucharist. I think that the GIRM is clear in that it gives the bishop some discretion but when you take that document along with other documents and teachings on the Eucharist, you are being deliberately hard headed to think that standing is as reverent as kneeling. My experience is that when there is no kneeling during Mass the congregation is more focused on themselves, their comfort and being warm and welcoming. Fellowship is a big word here. Everything they do is to promote fellowship. My parish uses that word more than the words Eucharist or Mass.
At least at the parish level, there is a very poor understanding of the Eucharist and the issue of standing is just one sign of that ignorance. Until our new pastor arrived the Communion cups were not purified before being removed from the altar and it was left for an EME to do so in the Sacristy. In addition, the Ciborium was not returned to the tabernacle until after Mass. That was just pure disrespect, desecration, etc.
By the way, I have no idea what the Bishop has mandated. I have asked about the practice of standing and the answer is “that is what we were taught”. I believe that the faithful are not to be forbidden to kneel even if the norm is otherwise. I could be mistaken.
Peace.
B
Brendan
Guest
What exactly does this mean to you?
If I was in your diocese, would your bishop’s ‘regulation’ mean that I am no longer free to kneel?
Does the fact that you would be standing mean that I am some how regulated so rigidly that I am no longer free to kneel?
B
Brendan
Guest
And how about the Bishop’s own newletter to each each other
Is your bishop forbidding indiviual communicants from kneeling when returning from having recieved Holy Communion?
T
TraceCub
Guest
My husband and I are members of an Eastern Catholic - Byzantine Church. The proper liturgical posture for us is to stand. However, there are a few regular members who are Roman Catholic and for varying reasons do not attend Roman Mass.
So they kneel.
It doesn’t bother me that they are kneeling, but I wonder why they are making an effort (many people travel 30+ miles to get here) to come to this particular church if they’re not going to participate like everyone else.
Because I’m relatively new to the faith, I asked my priest about it one day. His comment was that a lot of people worship in their own way and that’s fine, but to him the old saying stands true.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. :byzsoc:
So they kneel.
It doesn’t bother me that they are kneeling, but I wonder why they are making an effort (many people travel 30+ miles to get here) to come to this particular church if they’re not going to participate like everyone else.
Because I’m relatively new to the faith, I asked my priest about it one day. His comment was that a lot of people worship in their own way and that’s fine, but to him the old saying stands true.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. :byzsoc:
A
Annc
Guest
Just curious…besides the question of who has authority to instruct the faithful on posture during Mass and if a Bishop has the authority then the faithful should obey. Does anyone know why anyone would want to stand? I know why I kneel but I still don’t understand why you would fight so hard for the right to stand. Standing seems to go hand in hand with diminishing the importance of the Mass and the Eucharist.
Obviously, those with health reasons can sit.
Peace.
Obviously, those with health reasons can sit.
Peace.
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
M
Magnum_V8
Guest
Annc,
I’m surprised to see this thread revived! Your situation is almost exactly the same as mine, the only difference being that others join you in kneeling, and some have even talked to you about it.
I kneel, and my wife kneels. She’s a convert and our current parish is the only one she’s attended, although we have went to a Tridentine parish quite often since Easter of this year. But nobody has mentioned it to us, not even the priest, and not a single other person, even among the younger ones, has joined in…and I don’t sit way in the back either. The priest has made eye contact with me while kneeling, and he hasn’t said a single word to me, nor has he mentioned anything about it from the pulpit or in the bulletin. So, it appears he has no problem with kneeling or standing.
I haven’t been interrupted while kneeling before mass, but after the “preparatory” prayers, I and my family pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet while sitting in the pews and we routinely get interrupted.
Poor catechisis is the problem. Example:
My wife, being a recent convert, does not understand the concept of kneeling. Sometimes I think she kneels because she thinks “I so adamantly want her to kneel.” She doesn’t kneel for prayer before mass, and even started to refrain from kneeling at the beginning of the Tridentine Mass…where’s its absolutely called for. I had to give her a gruff look. I’ve tried to talk to her about it, but she thinks its “my” perspective. All this could have been avoided with proper catechisis in her RCIA program, and ongoing teaching from the pulpit.
And as far as “holier than thou”…are we not called to be as holy as possible? Were the Saints not the holiest humans in their time? You can be “HOLY”, and it will be misunderstood as “holy than thou.” But the final mentality should be that we are there for Jesus and with Jesus. And not a single one of us could keep our knees from bending if Jesus appeared in human form during Mass.
I was listening to a Catholic Apologetics CD, and the speaker quoted an atheist who said, “If Catholics actually believed what their Church teaches, they’d be on their hands and knees at Mass.” There is some truth to that.
I’m surprised to see this thread revived! Your situation is almost exactly the same as mine, the only difference being that others join you in kneeling, and some have even talked to you about it.
I kneel, and my wife kneels. She’s a convert and our current parish is the only one she’s attended, although we have went to a Tridentine parish quite often since Easter of this year. But nobody has mentioned it to us, not even the priest, and not a single other person, even among the younger ones, has joined in…and I don’t sit way in the back either. The priest has made eye contact with me while kneeling, and he hasn’t said a single word to me, nor has he mentioned anything about it from the pulpit or in the bulletin. So, it appears he has no problem with kneeling or standing.
I haven’t been interrupted while kneeling before mass, but after the “preparatory” prayers, I and my family pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet while sitting in the pews and we routinely get interrupted.
Poor catechisis is the problem. Example:
My wife, being a recent convert, does not understand the concept of kneeling. Sometimes I think she kneels because she thinks “I so adamantly want her to kneel.” She doesn’t kneel for prayer before mass, and even started to refrain from kneeling at the beginning of the Tridentine Mass…where’s its absolutely called for. I had to give her a gruff look. I’ve tried to talk to her about it, but she thinks its “my” perspective. All this could have been avoided with proper catechisis in her RCIA program, and ongoing teaching from the pulpit.
And as far as “holier than thou”…are we not called to be as holy as possible? Were the Saints not the holiest humans in their time? You can be “HOLY”, and it will be misunderstood as “holy than thou.” But the final mentality should be that we are there for Jesus and with Jesus. And not a single one of us could keep our knees from bending if Jesus appeared in human form during Mass.
I was listening to a Catholic Apologetics CD, and the speaker quoted an atheist who said, “If Catholics actually believed what their Church teaches, they’d be on their hands and knees at Mass.” There is some truth to that.
- Status