The Koran and the Book of Mormons

[BJRumph]

Firstly, it is the Qur’an which is the proof of the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh)… NOT the other way around.

Secondly, the Qur’an itself is the proof that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) CANNOT be the author of the Qur’an.

Perhaps this was already addressed, but, this is exactly what the LDS say about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. The BoM proves Smith’s ‘prophethood’ and ‘he couldn’t possibly have written it himself’ and therefore ‘must’ have come from God.

The difference, here, between mormons and muslims on this line of reasoning is that, unlike in Islam (granted, based on my admittedly limited observations of Islam), the ‘fact’ of proof of prophethood for Smith is more important than what is actually (doctrinally) found in the BoM; thus for mormons he can contradict the very document which grants him his ‘proof’ of ‘authority’.

 

[BJRumph]

Islam has numbers of followers in the billions.

Again, Mormons use their reported numbers as a false support for the ‘truth’ of their religion. While they don’t yet rate in the billions, the millions they do claim are sufficient enough for members to think “well, 10 Million people can’t be wrong…”. Its why they love to report their supposed membership statistics.

Any way you cut it, the number of adherents is totally unrelated to the intrinsic value of the religious faith itself, or a measure of its ‘truthfulness’.

And no, as a Christian and Catholic, I don’t agree with the uncharitable nature of the ‘breeding like vermin’ response. While all religions can claim a certain percentage of its ‘membership’ to be simply born & bred, rather than believing/practical adherents, and so there is a certain truth there that can be discussed, the point is largely lost when resorting to such vitriol. EVERY sect or religion was described by its enemies in such terms. For example, protestants in America have said the exact same thing of Catholics (though they usually used a specific vermin, like rats, in their rhetoric). Its intolerant & bigoted ravings, regardless of who says them, and to whom they are directed. Should never come out of the mouth of a Christian, let alone a Catholic, as neigther allows for the reduction of any human being, or group of humans, to the level of ‘vermin’.

 

[swariffin]

With all due respect to Tolkien, there are however significant differences here.

Firstly, it is the Qur’an which is the proof of the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh)… NOT the other way around.

Secondly, the Qur’an itself is the proof that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) CANNOT be the author of the Qur’an.

How do we know that Quran is the word of God?
Answer : Muhammad said so.

How do we know Muhammad is the prophet?
Answer : Go to the First paragraph

 

[swariffin]

Please point out where did I mock your belief?

Maybe I should not use the word clown on Mohammad but what else can I do to describe the differences between Jesus and Mohammad? I did not call Mohammad clown per se, I only said he was a clown compared to Jesus and that is my true assesment knowing how different Jesus was vis-a-vis Mohammad.

I know this is the difficulty here - to find appropriate politically correct word. I wish I could and most of the time try to do so but my command of language is rather limited to sufficiently express myself. I am sorry then to express that part of my feeling here.

The Muslims claim that Jesus as well as Muhammad were just prophets. When anybody ridicule Jesus, no muslim care. When Muhammad was ridiculed, they are shouting. They are putting deity to Muhammad eventhough they deny it.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Muslims claim that Jesus as well as Muhammad were just prophets. When anybody ridicule Jesus, no muslim care. When Muhammad was ridiculed, they are shouting. They are putting deity to Muhammad eventhough they deny it.

If you are saying that eventhough Muslims don’t consider Mohammad God, the way thy treat Mohammad is like idolatry, then you may have a good point there.

 

[swariffin]

If you are saying that eventhough Muslims don’t consider Mohammad God, the way thy treat Mohammad is like idolatry, then you may have a good point there.

Exactly

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

. Muslims … they breed like vermin…

lol , is it a sin to have many kids ? Was it Jesus (p) or Mother Mary (p) or your Church taught u so ?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

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Salaam/peace

…When anybody ridicule Jesus, no muslim care. .

it’s not true . In any Muslim majority country , u won’t find any nasty cartoon or movie on Jesus (p) . We don’t utter his name without saying alayhis salam
(peace be upon him ). We also respect his Mother Mary (p) …what more do u expect from us ? Here Catholics regularly bash our Prophet , refused to write his full name but they expect we will start worshiping Jesus & Mary (pbut) besides God Almighty ?

 

[swariffin]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

it’s not true . In any Muslim majority country , u won’t find any nasty cartoon or movie on Jesus (p) . We don’t utter his name without saying alayhis salam
(peace be upon him ). We also respect his Mother Mary (p) …what more do u expect from us ? Here Catholics regularly bash our Prophet , refused to write his full name but they expect we will start worshiping Jesus & Mary (pbut) besides God Almighty ?

What about the next of my statement?

 

[hamba2han]

Perhaps this was already addressed, but, this is exactly what the LDS say about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. The BoM proves Smith’s ‘prophethood’ and ‘he couldn’t possibly have written it himself’ and therefore ‘must’ have come from God.

The difference, here, between mormons and muslims on this line of reasoning is that, unlike in Islam (granted, based on my admittedly limited observations of Islam), the ‘fact’ of proof of prophethood for Smith is more important than what is actually (doctrinally) found in the BoM; thus for mormons he can contradict the very document which grants him his ‘proof’ of ‘authority’.

That can hardly be considered ‘proof’ in the truest sense of the word, can it?

Muslims are NOT permitted to place faith in something without any proof or evidence, such is the great significance and importance of ‘proof’ in Islam.

 

[JLSamuel818]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

it’s not true . In any Muslim majority country , u won’t find any nasty cartoon or movie on Jesus (p) . We don’t utter his name without saying alayhis salam
(peace be upon him ). We also respect his Mother Mary (p) …what more do u expect from us ? Here Catholics regularly bash our Prophet , refused to write his full name but they expect we will start worshiping Jesus & Mary (pbut) besides God Almighty ?

We don’t worship Mary, but rather we give honor and remember Mary as the Mother of the Son of the Living GOD.

And we worship only one God. One.

Jesus is one with the Father, and the Father one with Him. So yes, you do well to worship the Fathers Son, not a man who claimed that an angel spoke to him so he is right and everyone else is wrong.

If Muhammad was really from GOD, then you must acknowledge that Jesus was His Son. And if you do believe that He was His Son. Then you MUST acknowledge His Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

That can hardly be considered ‘proof’ in the truest sense of the word, can it?

Muslims are NOT permitted to place faith in something without any proof or evidence, such is the great significance and importance of ‘proof’ in Islam.

It just did. All along in the scriptures before the Quran, the crucfixion of Jesus was documented. The Quran says he was not without further explanation as to what happened if he was not, let alone provide proof that he was not crucified.

The only proof that I am told by Muslims is that it is written in the Quran and Allah knows best. I wonder how you can expect Christians to be convinced to accept such kind of proof.

 

[hamba2han]

It just did. All along in the scriptures before the Quran, the crucfixion of Jesus was documented. The Quran says he was not without further explanation as to what happened if he was not, let alone provide proof that he was not crucified.

The only proof that I am told by Muslims is that it is written in the Quran and Allah knows best. I wonder how you can expect Christians to be convinced to accept such kind of proof.

Christians cannot even offer convincing evidence that Jesus (pbuh) even existed to begin with, much less provide “documented” proof that he was crucified.

As for the “five hundred witnesses” to this alleged crucifixion, Muslims have a whole lot more knowledge about the names and individual character of many of the “ten thousands of saints” mentioned in the Bible than Christians have about these 500 or so souls, whoever they may be.

 

[why_me]

You never heard about Hurricane Katrina? Wasn’t that big earthquake this summer in China? Maybe you have selective listening.

So you think God is punishing Muslims in those cases?

Muslims don’t see the world that way–i.e., suffering in this life as necessarily a punishment. Think of the concept of a martyr–in Islam, a martyr is someone who will not be held to account on the day of resurrection, like everyone else.

Let’s think about the tsunami. Who is a martyr? Someone who drowns is a martyr. Someone who is crushed by a wall or building is a martyr. Someone who dies of a stomach disease is a martyr. Someone who dies of plague is a martyr. (And there are more.) But can you think of anyone who died in the tsunami that wouldn’t be a martyr??

So first of all, not every calamity is centered in the Muslim world–that’s a straight lie you should have researched better. And second of all, according to Islam people who die in natural disasters like that aren’t necessarily being punished–you don’t know. It might be good for you to do more research on Islam–particularly on the concept of God, since it seems so strange to you.

Of course calaminites occur everywhere but it does seem to me that many occur in the Muslim world. Be that as it may, I have to say that I am a little saddened about what happened in Mumbai. So many innocent people killed in the name of Islam. I am still waiting for Muslim condemnation of what happened. Sorry, sister, but I just cannot accept Islam. Too many modern atrocities commited in its name by people who are now claimed to be martyrs living with their virgins. This is no mockery just fact in their belief. Sad really.

 

[inJESUS]

Christians cannot even offer convincing evidence that Jesus (pbuh) even existed to begin with, much less provide “documented” proof that he was crucified.

on His existence we agree so there is no need to mention it. As to documentation , we have, as to scriptures, we have, as to Tradition, we have yet you accept none. What do *you *have? a single verse that you don’t even understand yet you come telling us Jesus was not crucified…

As for the “five hundred witnesses” to this alleged crucifixion, Muslims have a whole lot more knowledge about the names and individual character of many of the "ten thousands of saints"

 

[Catholic_JIMMY]

Many authors are inspired to write great works after being inspired by other books. Thousands of people have shown that it isn’t difficult to write books. Muhammad did nothing special. So what if he wrote a book. What miracles did he perform? What good has his religion gave the world? This is how we will know if he was from God. The Muslims say the Quran is a miracle. I say it’s simply a book.

The Muslims believe the Qur’an is a miracle because all the chapters and verses are dividable by nineteen. The number of bones in the adult human body among other natural ocurrances are also dividable by nineteen. Since Muhammad and his followers supposedly could not calculate numbers, the Muslims believes this justifies their religion. I think that Heretic Christian friends were “demons” with numbers.

 

[Nicolas]

Catholic_JIMMY:
for the number 19

your reply was on “Today 8:11 pm” 8+11= 19

also “Dempsey1919”

 

[Eucharisted]

The Muslims believe the Qur’an is a miracle because all the chapters and verses are dividable by nineteen. The number of bones in the adult human body among other natural ocurrances are also dividable by nineteen. Since Muhammad and his followers supposedly could not calculate numbers, the Muslims believes this justifies their religion. I think that Heretic Christian friends were “demons” with numbers.

Do Jews consider the Torah a miracle because of the number of negative and positive commandments in it? If not, than Muslims’ belief is severely flawed, since it is overwhelmingly taken from the Jewish belief that the number of positive commandents add up to the number of bones in the body (194) and the number of negative commandments add up to perfection of the law (77). **

 

[why_me]

Christians cannot even offer convincing evidence that Jesus (pbuh) even existed to begin with, much less provide “documented” proof that he was crucified.

As for the “five hundred witnesses” to this alleged crucifixion, Muslims have a whole lot more knowledge about the names and individual character of many of the “ten thousands of saints” mentioned in the Bible than Christians have about these 500 or so souls, whoever they may be.

I think that the proof is in the pudding. The early christians formed just after the death of christ. If one goes back to 50 AD just 17 years after the death of christ you can find followers of christ. If the story was false, no one would follow a Jesus that never existed. Verification was just around the corner at that time. Now of course, Paul brought the gospel to the gentiles. But even then, the story could be verified rather easily. Just take a trip to Judea.

 

[why_me]

As for the “five hundred witnesses” to this alleged crucifixion, Muslims have a whole lot more knowledge about the names and individual character of many of the “ten thousands of saints” mentioned in the Bible than Christians have about these 500 or so souls, whoever they may be.

Here is the problem: if any individual decides to investigate the truth of Mohammed or the Koran and finds things to cause doubt, he or she will lose their head or receive a severe stoning. In other words, the actions of Muslims speak volumes. I certainly would not want such a god or to even live with such a god that seems so closed minded and unforgiving.