The Lack of Consistency in Theological Teaching about Purgatory

[Dovekin]

The problem is that the idea of “oh well everybody goes to Purgatory” discourages people on earth from doing their best to love God and others in a way such as to go straight to Heaven.

I struggled with how to say this earlier, and forgive me if I do not get it quite right now.

If your motivation is the love and mercy of God, you are going to Heaven. If your motivation is a selfish “getting into heaven”, you are going to Purgatory.

If you want people to go directly to Heaven, you cannot motivate them with a fear of hell or purgatory. That is a secondary motivation, rooted in a “selfish” desire for your personal salvation. Saints are motivated primarily by the love of God.

So you are left with the same dilemma. If you want them to go to Heaven, inspire them to love God. They can get there through purgatory but it is the love of God that saves them.

 

[thistle]

It is my personal view that the vast majority of those saved go to Purgatory first. All of us are sinners and require cleansing before being allowed into Heaven.
The only ones we know go directly to Heaven are those who die immediately after baptism.

 

[babochka]

Pain and joy can both be there at the same time. This was St. Catherine of Genoa’s point. The pain is terrible, or in her words, “as much pain as in Hell”

This reminds me of the afterpains of childbirth. If you have had more than one child, these contractions of the uterus after birth can be every bit as painful as labor itself, but they are mitigated by the joy of holding the baby in your arms.

 

[graciew]

You know, I thought of the same. It is indescribable. The urge to hold that baby , to see his/ her face at long last! …It is like one is in a such a mix of emotions at the same time. It is unexplainable…
I understand what you mean.Maybe not super helpful for everyone but yes…that is the kind of idea one gets.

 

[PetraG]

We don’t have a concrete teaching because it would require a public revelation that the Church does not have. There isn’t a consistent belief formed that some Pope is ever going to declare in some dogmatic way.
We don’t have that public revelation because God has not deemed it necessary to give us that.
And really—what is the need? We have been told we can’t actually imagine what God has in store. We can try, that is alright, but in the end it isn’t necessary or possible to get a definitive answer.
We know enough. We can trust that. It may even be that the state of unknowing we are in serves a positive purpose, but in the end we can’t know and don’t need to know.

 

[PetraG]

I think indescribable is probably the issue. That has Scriptural backing, anyway. It seems reasonable that our current experience limits our capacity to comprehend this by too much.

 

[porthos11]

There is no lack of consistency in the teaching because the Church does not teach exactly what “goes on” in Purgatory. The Church only requires of us to believe the following:

1. Those who die in God’s grace but with remaining temporal punishment due to sin, venial sin, or attachment to sin, are purified in Purgatory before entering heaven.
2. Prayers for the dead help the souls in Purgatory.

That’s it. The Church does not definitively teach that there is a real fire, that it’s as painful as the fires of hell, that you have “read this or rue it” as if Purgatory is a torture chamber to be avoided at all costs. All these images and legends about visions and how awful and horrible the sufferings are do not reflect the Church’s teaching. These are all opinions and private revelations which one is free to accept or reject.

I reject them. I have no doubt Purgatory is a place of suffering, since what purification does not involve suffering of some form? They are, after all, deferred the Beatific Vision, which would no doubt inflict a pain of longing. And letting go of attachments, as we all know, is also a painful experience.

But Purgatory is a part of the Church whose souls are incapable of sinning, will never lose the state of grace, and are in communion with the saints in heaven and the faithful on earth. In Purgatory, trials are ended. From this I must draw the conclusion that the suffering in Purgatory is a joyful suffering, because Purgatory is a place of love. I also like the imagery that the doorway between Purgatory and the Beatific vision is open and unlocked, meaning, Purgatory is not a prison. The souls themselves willingly stay there until they know they are ready.

 

[fhansen]

As others have said, we simply don’t know a great deal about the subject. But we can look at it both ways: purgatory is both a place of anguish, because we’re still separated from the ultimate fulfillment of all desire, the source of complete happiness, and yet also a place of rejoicing, because we’re that much nearer to Him, and now know with certainty that we’'ll be meeting Him. It’s possible that the anguish of purgatory is still happier than the general level of happiness we can realize on this earth. We’re now safe and secure, with nothing but a bright future ahead, but a burning pain comes from the heightened awareness, of hungering and thirsting for the One thing that we can’t quite touch, while knowing with an absolute certainty that He exists.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, I’m simply going to continue to shoot for the goal of skipping the whole thing.

When a salesman goes out to make his sales goal of 100, he doesn’t say, “My goal is 100 but in reality I’m not that great of a salesman so I’ll probably just make 75 and that’s enough that I won’t get fired, though I won’t get the big bonus.” He gets up every day and says, “I’m gonna make 100 sales!”
That’s what St. Paul was talking about.

And if somehow things go really wrong and the guy only makes 75 sales, well, he’s covered, but he aimed high. Go big or go home.

We should all aim high when it comes to loving God. We’re called to be saints. Not the umpty billionth soul in Purgatory.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Catholic bookstores stock what sells. The indy book shop owner does not usually have the bandwidth to read every book they are pitched, let alone do an in-depth study on them. This is one reason the CWGSOA was created, to allow bookstore owners to rely on that SOA for non-imprimatur books.

Schouppe’s Purgatory book

Honestly, this one would never pop up on my radar to recommend. I read parts of it once, as the copy was the victim of the “Tan Books bad binding”, it fell apart and I tossed it.

 

[JanR]

Of course, we should strive for heaven. I was merely stating the most important thing we need to know about Purgatory, which is that, once purified, heaven is assured us. As for what we shall experience if we wind up in Purgatory, who knows? It would seem the experience would be an individual one for each soul, as we each live individual lives. But why speculate? If we can avoid Purgatory altogether and go straight to heaven, that’s what we truly should be focusing upon. That’s the best outcome, and the happiest one.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Honestly, this one would never pop up on my radar to recommend. I read parts of it once, as the copy was the victim of the “Tan Books bad binding”, it fell apart and I tossed it.

It’s been around for many years and is a good seller (must be for it to stay in print this long, the imprimatur is from 1893). It also has all the requisite approvals.

 

[porthos11]

Well, I’m simply going to continue to shoot for the goal of skipping the whole thing.

When a salesman goes out to make his sales goal of 100, he doesn’t say, “My goal is 100 but in reality I’m not that great of a salesman so I’ll probably just make 75 and that’s enough that I won’t get fired, though I won’t get the big bonus.” He gets up every day and says, “I’m gonna make 100 sales!”
That’s what St. Paul was talking about.

And if somehow things go really wrong and the guy only makes 75 sales, well, he’s covered, but he aimed high. Go big or go home.

We should all aim high when it comes to loving God. We’re called to be saints. Not the umpty billionth soul in Purgatory.

Absolutely. That’s why the Church offers plenary indulgences. And the current grant of indulgences is very generous. It is very possible that for as long as one maintained a prayer life, the moment of death itself carries a plenary indulgence, and not subject to the usual conditions (no. 28). Which means it is not out of reach that a person who maintained a habit of prayer during his life could very well skip purgatory if he dies properly disposed.

I think the point is just that the horror stories of Purgatory are probably not the best or even the most truthful way to teach it, based on what the Church actually teaches: in Purgatory, charity subsists, there is a sharing of spiritual goods with the saints in heaven and the faithful on earth, salvation is assured, and there is no sin. All that translates into joy, while purification translates into suffering. I would also guess since there are no Sacraments there, that would also contribute to the pain of longing. So it is only reason able and consistent with Catholic teaching that joy and suffering coexist in Purgatory. It is not a place of horror since sanctifying grace exists there.

 

[EndTimes]

JOHN PAUL II

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of ‘Purgatory’ (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification.

In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5:48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father ‘at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints’ (1 Thes 3:12f.). Moreover, we are invited to ‘cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit’ (2 Cor 7:1; cf. 1 Jn 3:3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church’s teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Following our catechesis on the reality of heaven and hell, today we consider “Purgatory”, the process of purification for those who die in the love of God but who are not completely imbued with that love.
Sacred Scripture teaches us that we must be purified if we are to enter into perfect and complete union with God. Jesus Christ, who became the perfect expiation for our sins and took upon himself the punishment that was our due, brings us God’s mercy and love. But before we enter into God’s Kingdom every trace of sin within us must be eliminated, every imperfection in our soul must be corrected. This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory. Those who live in this state of purification after death are not separated from God but are immersed in the love of Christ. Neither are they separated from the saints in heaven - who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life - nor from us on earth - who continue on our pilgrim journey to the Father’s house. We all remain united in the Mystical Body of Christ, and we can therefore offer up prayers and good works on behalf of our brothers and sisters in Purgatory.

---

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I get the impression that purgatory is different for everyone. With all the different variations in it’s descriptions by holy people, that would make sense.

Made it sound like Purgatory is a happy place you’d want to go, unless you’re some prideful person who thinks they’re all ready to meet God.

Maybe it was for him. Didn’t he go there one time?

other saints that portray Purgatory as a miserable place just slightly better than Hell.

It probably is if you just got out of going to hell by one prayer.

other saints who encouraged people to try to avoid going to Purgatory because God would really prefer that we not go there

I don’t see this as having anything to do with consistent private revelations on purgatory.

I see it somewhat like this, it’s easier for an A student to ace the test than it is for a D student. The A student may even enjoy the test.

But what’s the point in ‘warning’ the A students that the test is very hard? Wouldn’t it make sense for most of the warnings to be geared towards those who need it most… the D students.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But what’s the point in ‘warning’ the A students that the test is very hard? Wouldn’t it make sense for most of the warnings to be geared towards those who need it most… the D students.

I think the difference in the spiritual context is that we ALL have the capacity to be “A” students. We may not all be canonized saints (who could be seen as the class valedictorians, perhaps) but we could all be holy enough to bypass Purgatory if we just put our mind to it.

Fr Groeschel did die at one time and come back, but as he explains (at the beginning of the same talk discussed in this thread) he has no memories of what happened when he was dead. He had no NDE or visit to Purgatory at that time. He remembers going to cross the street and then much later waking up in the hospital. He knows he was dead (or at the point where the doctors were ready to declare him dead) because another priest who happened to be in the ER at the time was witnessing everything that went on.

 

[po18guy]

Many aspects of Church teaching are permitted a fairly wide latitude, as there is much that simply has not been revealed to us. As long as that teaching is consistent with the three theological virtues of faith, hope and love (as well as the deposit of faith), it is permitted, as there is no teaching or evidence against it.

It is logical and reasonable to expect that those in purgatory, even though being purified, are 100% certain of entering into the Beatific Vision.

Who would not love that? The process itself is proof of God’s mercy and the end result is eternal bliss. It is a reflection of, or concentration of life itself: a pilgrim journey of suffering with heaven on the horizon.

As to grandparents or anyone else, if they were faithful Catholics, there is a reasonable hope that they are indeed in purgation. No better way to turn teens away than to suggest that grandma might be burning in the flames of hell! We simply don’t know, but must judge with charity in the light of God’s love and mercy.

Saint Paul wrote that “for in this hope we were saved” (Romans 8:24) and hope is what impels us forward in the faith.

Within this latitude of teaching, God has granted us the freedom to base part of our hope on a particular manner of teaching which appeals to us.

I know that Fr. Groeschel is praying for us even now. After his life of suffering, I am betting that purgatory for him was an eye blink.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As to grandparents or anyone else, if they were faithful Catholics, there is a reasonable hope that they are indeed in purgation.

I agree with you that Fr. Groeschel is a holy guy. I also don’t think he said anything that bad.

However, there is also a reasonable hope that the grandparents are in Heaven. Whether that’s because they skipped Purgatory, or they went through it in an eye blink, or they spent some considerable period of time (in God’s time dimension, not ours) there before reaching Heaven, it’s entirely possible that they are there. It doesn’t mean you don’t pray for them (unless of course they’re beatified by the Church) because the prayers can always be applied to their past life to help them get where they are. I just think the assumption that everybody goes to Purgatory is not the correct way to think. It’s not horrible (to me anyway; St. Therese thought it was hurtful to God) and there is as you said room for different Catholic viewpoints on the matter.

 

[po18guy]

We tend to think of purgatory as a negative, when there is no greater good for the imperfect soul than purgatory! I for one, expect to have perhaps the most severe purgation of all and would not for a moment think that I could enter heaven without serious cleansing.b

Purgatory may be viewed as God’s mud room. We are all invited to the banquet, but we are soiled with sin or attachment to sin. A precious and blessed few are clean enough to enter without purgation, as they have no need of it.

For the rest of us, both humility and reality demand that we dare not think any such thing of ourselves. Thus, we spend some time being spiritually cleansed int he mud room before entering the dining hall.

Indeed, purgation is both mercy and justice in one. It is just that we pay the cost of being cleansed, but also infinitely merciful that we will enjoy an infinite bliss - unlimited, unending, in exchange for a limited life and limited good works.

Consider: Rather than thinking that Fr. Groeschel’s talk differed from others, reverse that and wonder why others’ talks differ from Fr. Groeschel’s.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not going to ponder why St. Therese of Lisieux’s talks differed from Fr. Groeschel’s. I don’t think that would be a helpful exercise. Nor really fair to the good Father.

I will probably watch more of Fr. Groeschel because I think the Lord just wanted to put him on my radar screen to be honest. Not sure why but usually when something gets my attention it’s for a reason.