The Lack of Consistency in Theological Teaching about Purgatory

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Tis_Bearself

Patron
I just watched part of a talk by Fr. Groeschel about Death and Purgatory. I like Fr. Groeschel and think in general he is a good speaker. However, in this talk he said the following (so far, I only listened to like 15 minutes of the program as yet)
  • Said Fr. Schouppe’s book about Purgatory was “baloney” and wished he could get rid of it. I thought Fr. Schouppe’s book was based on the teachings of quite a few saints.
  • Said that St. Catherine of Genoa wrote that all the souls in Purgatory were happy and their happiness was only exceeded by that of the souls in Heaven.
  • Made it sound like Purgatory is a happy place you’d want to go, unless you’re some prideful person who thinks they’re all ready to meet God. This is contrary to the teachings by other saints who encouraged people to try to avoid going to Purgatory because God would really prefer that we not go there. And also contrary to the teachings by still other saints that portray Purgatory as a miserable place just slightly better than Hell.
  • Told a roomful of tweens/ young teens that all their deceased grandparents were probably in purgatory right now (i.e. taking the position that almost every person who dies has to go to Purgatory despite several Catholic saints saying that doesn’t have to be the case).
  • Said that there was no fire in Purgatory and instead people there were “on fire” with love for God instead.
The gist of his talk was that people should think about/ prepare for their own death and also pray for the souls in Purgatory. I am in agreement with both things.
Similarly, I am quite capable of sorting out a personal belief system on Purgatory without needing everyone who speaks or writes about it to agree and be consistent with each other, so I’m not harboring doubt as a result of listening to this talk.

But I do wonder, why hasn’t the Church developed a more consistent teaching on the above points? Is it just a matter that we don’t really know exactly what goes on in Purgatory with respect to whether it is painful, whether people who aren’t great saints on the level of Mother Teresa can skip over it, whether souls there are happy, etc. Obviously someone is going to have a different conception of Purgatory if they read Fr. Schouppe rather than Fr. Groeschel, or those “Anne: A Lay Apostle” booklets on Purgatory which do have an imprimatur. I don’t understand why - other than purgatory probably being less of a priority than social justice concerns are - the Church is allowing all these wildly different ideas on Purgatory to coexist.
 
Last edited:
In short, the details of how Purgatory works have not been revealed to us. So speculation abounds.
St Augustine saw it as a place of purification whereby we are made wholly pure for Heaven and left it at that. Maybe that’s all we need to know.
 
Dan_Defender said:
In short, the details of how Purgatory works have not been revealed to us. So speculation abounds.
St Augustine saw it as a place of purification whereby we are made wholly pure for Heaven and left it at that. Maybe that’s all we need to know.
Click to expand...
I agree with this.

God Bless
 
Last edited:
That doesn’t make sense. The deeper details of the teaching of Purgatory are unknown. Therefore people are free to speculate as long as they don’t become dogmatic. It’s like the Most Holy Rosary. We are not bound to pray it. One can be a faithful Catholic without praying the Rosary.
In light of that, we are free to speculate about Purgatory since there are dogmatic definitions on the things that we are speculating on. Now if the Church pronounced a dogmatic definition on the unknown things of Purgatory then we wouldn’t and shouldn’t speculate on those if they are contrary to the Dogma.
Does that make sense?

God Bless
 
Last edited:
I haven’t read your sources but those cannot be claimed as facts they are opinions and they are entitled to them. It’s like interpretations of the Book of Revelation, plenty of opinions on that one.
 
It’s fine for you and me who realize that we are not bound by private revelations and that some private revelations might mean something specific to the seer, sort of like how Don Bosco’s visions of his young students all getting tempted and going to Hell was supposedly a reflection of his fears for his students rather than an absolute prediction of where each boy would end up.

And also fine for those of us who can decide which sources may be more credible, for example a doctor of the church is likely more credible than Anne, a Lay Apostle.

I can see the average Joe Catholic getting really confused by all the conflicting source material though.
 
Last edited:
It’s a very serious matter that you bring up. Purgatory is a crucial element of Catholic theology, and the lack of clarity about it is lamentable (to put it mildly) and very harmful. Without Purgatory, Catholic theology would be broken, and therefore it deserves much more attention than it gets. Fr. Groeschel’s words on the matter though, don’t help at all because he’s simply wrong on all points you listed. Fortunately for you, you seem to already understand this both intuitively and on the basis of your observation that Fr. Groeschel is contradicting various saints.

But your question is, why doesn’t the Church offer a clear teaching on Purgatory? There’s a clear answer to that, but if I write it up on CAF it’ll get moderated away, as has happened before no matter how politely and carefully I delivered the explanation. It’s considered an “undesirable topic”, so I won’t risk it again.

Anyway, just stick with your intuition and with the teachings of the old saints: make the utmost effort to avoid Purgatory, and if you end up there anyway, bear it patiently. It will be penance, even severe penance if that’s what it takes to cleanse you, but—as in this life—you won’t be bereft of God’s Presence.
 
I think the most important – and hopeful fact about Purgatory is that if we make it there, we shall ultimately make it to heaven. That’s what really matters.
 
JanR said:
I think the most important – and hopeful fact about Purgatory is that if we make it there, we shall ultimately make it to heaven. That’s what really matters.
Click to expand...
It’s a good thing to be saved even if one ends up in Purgatory, but Heaven is supposed to be our aspirational goal, not Purgatory.
The early Christians such as St. Paul taught that we should aim for Heaven, that we should run the race in a manner that we might win. 1 Corinthians 9:24.

Somehow that got perverted into “everybody other than the greatest saints is probably going to end up in Purgatory”, an attitude that St. Therese said was hurtful to God because Purgatory was supposed to be the emergency entrance into Heaven for a few who needed it, not the place where almost everybody went.

And now we’re being told by modern teachers that Purgatory is actually a nice place to be, so not only are we all probably going to end up there, but it’s going to be pleasant when we do.

In short, we’re no longer being encouraged to be our personal best and go straight to Heaven. Books like “How to Avoid Purgatory” are apparently no longer in vogue because people just assume they are going there. That’s not good.
 
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself said:
I just watched part of a talk by Fr. Groeschel about Death and Purgatory. I like Fr. Groeschel and think in general he is a good speaker. However, in this talk he said the following (so far, I only listened to like 15 minutes of the program as yet)
Click to expand...
Well, first let’s see what he said. I transcribed the most applicable portion, which may be useful to readers:

“Unfortunately, contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church of the Council of Trent, people make Purgatory sound awful. That was condemned by the Council of Trent. And you may see an awful book around, I’d like to be Pope so I could put it on the Index. It’s called Purgatory. Got a hand on a cross. Did you ever see that awful book? Don’t read it; it’s baloney. St. Catherine of Genoa was the great mystical saint of Purgatory who wrote about it. She said the happiness of the holy souls in Purgatory is exceeded only by the happiness of the saints in heaven. Which leaves us third. And she says the holy souls are very happy there but they’re being purged from their sins and failings. And there’s not physical fire in Purgatory, they talk about that. St. Augustine spoke about that. But it’s not like what we mean by fire, because there are no bodies there. But what it is, it’s really the soul freed from the body burns with love of God and is sorrowful that it is not able to go there.”

Now, he doesn’t say exactly what part of the Council of Trent is being alluded to, but I assume it’s this portion from Session 25:

“Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful.”

The Council of Trent, therefore, simply affirms the existence and basic doctrines concerning Purgatory and warns people against trying to go further with speculations that were common in the medieval period. As the Purgatory book in question is mostly doing exactly what the Council told people not to do, Groeschel is criticizing it on that basis.
 
On this specific note:
  • Said that St. Catherine of Genoa wrote that all the souls in Purgatory were happy and their happiness was only exceeded by that of the souls in Heaven.
Click to expand...
I’m confused as to why you bring this up as an apparent issue. She did write that (“I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise”). One may read it here. So what’s the problem in citing her as saying something she said? Sure, she stated that there were great pains in Purgatory but even so she states the souls in Purgatory don’t really mind it (“never can the souls say these pains are pains, so contented are they with God’s ordaining with which, in pure charity, their will is united”).

Or is your point that St. Catherine’s statement goes against what other saints may have said? That brings us to our next point:
But I do wonder, why hasn’t the Church developed a more consistent teaching on the above points? Is it just a matter that we don’t really know exactly what goes on in Purgatory with respect to whether it is painful, whether people who aren’t great saints on the level of Mother Teresa can skip over it, whether souls there are happy, etc.
Click to expand...
Despite multiple opportunities at ecumenical councils (Lyon, Florence, Trent) the Catholic Church repeatedly chose not to declare anything more than the existence and purpose of Purgatory. Why? I assume for what you said: “We don’t really know exactly what goes on in Purgatory with respect to whether it is painful, etc.” So Trent, while not weighing in on the subject beyond the basics that had previously been affirmed, did take the step of telling other people not to spend time publicly on the specifics of the subject. And that was, I believe, essentially the last official thing the Church said regarding Purgatory.
 
Last edited:
Tis_Bearself said:
it just a matter that we don’t really know exactly what goes on in Purgatory
Click to expand...
Yup.

So I just don’t think about it too much.
I can imagine myself getting there and going “pshew!” regardless of the level of unpleasantness 🙂
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Somehow that got perverted into “everybody other than the greatest saints is probably going to end up in Purgatory”, an attitude that St. Therese said was hurtful to God because Purgatory was supposed to be the emergency entrance into Heaven for a few who needed it, not the place where almost everybody went.

And now we’re being told by modern teachers that Purgatory is actually a nice place to be, so not only are we all probably going to end up there, but it’s going to be pleasant when we do.

In short, we’re no longer being encouraged to be our personal best and go straight to Heaven.
Click to expand...
You are setting ideas against each other when they do not contradict. An emergency entrance to heaven is a nice place to be. Heaven is better, but those in Purgatory have, in a sense, reached that goal.

God’s love is what gets us into Heaven. Our selfishness is what keeps us out. Purgatory is about our selfishness, but should always be considered in the light of God’s loving mercy. We always should be striving toward that love, not staying in our selfishness.
 
I think the only thing we need to know about Purgatory is that anyone who goes there is saved.
If I die and find myself there I will be happy to know I am saved and happy to bear the purification process needed for my final destination which is Heaven.

What else do we need to know?
 
In general, like much of the afterlife, little is directly revealed. Pain, however, is part of the dogmatic teaching:

Council of Florence
We define…Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church’s ordinances.
Click to expand...
Pain and joy can both be there at the same time. This was St. Catherine of Genoa’s point. The pain is terrible, or in her words, “as much pain as in Hell” but it is a blessed pain because the soul’s joy increases as the stain of sin is more and more burned away and the soul gets closer and closer to God. Their wills are also perfectly united to God. Think of the Saints and Martyrs who happily suffered everything in accordance with God’s will and in love for Him.

St. Catherine of Genoa, Treatise on Purgatory
I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the hindrance to His entrance is consumed. Sin’s rust is the hindrance, and the fire burns the rust away so that more and more the soul opens itself up to the divine inflowing. A thing which is covered cannot respond to the sun’s rays, not because of any defect in the sun, which is shining all the time, but because the cover is an obstacle; if the cover be burnt away, this thing is open to the sun; more and more as the cover is consumed does it respond to the rays of the sun

It is in this way that rust, which is sin, covers souls, and in Purgatory is burnt away by fire; the more it is consumed, the more do the souls respond to God, the true sun. As the rust lessens and the soul is opened up to the divine ray, happiness grows; until the time be accomplished the one wanes and the other waxes. Pain however does not lessen but only the time for which pain is endured. As for will: never can the souls say these pains are pains, so contented are they with God’s ordaining with which, in pure charity, their will is united.
Click to expand...
In the encyclical Spe Salvi, Pope Benedict XVI taught the same:
Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God.
Click to expand...
Overall, while there is certainly much (often well founded) speculation, I think there is consistency on the main points.
 
Schouppe’s Purgatory book is not my favorite book either, but I don’t see it as being in violation of the Council of Trent. I also can’t imagine that Catholic bookstores all over the place (I see it being sold in many such stores in just the past year) would continue to sell a work that violates the Council of Trent.
 
Last edited:
Dovekin said:
Heaven is better, but those in Purgatory have, in a sense, reached that goal.
Click to expand...
The problem is that the idea of “oh well everybody goes to Purgatory” discourages people on earth from doing their best to love God and others in a way such as to go straight to Heaven.
This was also St Therese’s main point in teaching/ encouraging her novices that they could skip right over Purgatory if they had enough love and trust in God.

I am a little baffled as to why this teaching is so ignored today.
 
I just finished reading that book on Purgatory, and I find it a little odd that Fr. Groeschel would so summarily dismiss the fairly consistent witness of such holy people…

As much as I hope that Purgatory isn’t a place of pain, I don’t think that aligns well with the nature of sin and the necessity of purification. However, it is also fairly universally noted as a place of intense joy, second only to Heaven, and that makes sense. Even with all that pain, those souls KNOW that they are saved. There is no trepidation, no back and forth, no more falling into sin. No more risk of damnation. I cannot comprehend how happy that must make someone…
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top