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twinc
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Please answer yes or no and why so "did those feet in ancient times walk on England’s mountains green and was the Holy Lamb of God on England’s pleasant pastures seen - twinc
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thistle
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I think you are just cutting and pasting from other sites asking the same question about this UK hymn called Jesusalem, the words of which were written by William Blake.
I supose you are looking for this:
The verses are thought to have been based on a legend that Jesus came to England as a young boy and visited the town of Glastonbury, Somerset, where he established a second Jerusalem.
Obviously the answer is no because Jesus did not set foot in England.
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seagal
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Why “obviously”? There are 17 years between the ages of 13 and 30 when there is nothing written about Jesus’ life, so theoretically he could have been anywhere. It is improbable that he was in England but that’s not the same as “definitely not”.
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twinc
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I thank you seagal,those years are referred to as “the silent or hidden years” and the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that indeed He was here and England is"the dowry of Mary" - more later - twinc
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NotWorthy
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seagal
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If you are going to make such a definite statement about where Jesus wasn’t you should be prepared to state equally definitely where he was, IMO. Again, I’m not saying he was in England, but you can’t make a categorical statement with nothing to back it up.
I would say, Jesus was probably never in England, there is no evidence to show he was, and so no reason to think so.
I would say, Jesus was probably never in England, there is no evidence to show he was, and so no reason to think so.
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thistle
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Are you insane? Jesus did NOT set foot in England. How can anyone be so stupid as to believe something like that?
Let me guess again. You also believe Jesus married Mary Magdalene due to circumstantial evidence.
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twinc
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no I do not but it seems He loved her and she loved Him but I feel you will have a seizure and a fit when I tell you I believe the BVM was the Holy Grail viz flesh of His flesh and blood of His blood by which we are redeemed.So Mary was here also well secluded and hidden from those who tried to destroy Christianity by trying to destroy any rallying point,so Stephen was stoned,Paul was flogged and even worse condemned to death,Peter was thrown into prison and the disciples dispersed - think about it - any comments - twinc
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thistle
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Hang on a second.
Are you telling us that you believe not only that Jesus was in England but Mary, Mother of Jesus, was hiding in England???
Also your reference to Jeus loving Mary Magdalene and her loving him, are you suggesting it was a romantic love and not the love Jesus had for all his Apostles and followers?
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twinc
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NotWorthy
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[/QUOTE]thistle;5935722:
Mr. Brown? Can I have your autograph?
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NHInsider
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Dan Brown is wrong on so many counts - but he didn’t orignate the legend of Jesus’ time in England, nor did William Blake. It is an ancient tale and certainly COULD have happened - what is now England was a major supplier of tin to the Empire and there was very active trade between Italia and the south coast. It is impossible to prove that Jesus was ever at Glastonbury but it is also impossible to disprove. (Even if someone did locate a grail there it wouldn’t prove that Jesus had been on a childhood trip to the island, since the hiding of the grail would have been much later.)
OTOH the “Mary Magdelene was the spouse of Jesus” bit doesn’t even bear discussing.
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thistle
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NPC
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The part of Blake’s poem to which you refer draws on an old legend from the Cornwall and Somerset areas of England, which says that Christ came to England as a youth with Joseph of Arimathea. It is said that he was engaged in the tin trade which is known to have existed between Cornwall and the Roman Empire.
While it is certainly unlikely that Christ came to England - I personally think it is no more than a fanciful legend - it is nonetheless possible. We know for a fact that the Roman Empire eventually extended as far as Northern England, but even at the time of Christ there were strong trade links between Southern England and the rest of the Empire.
I doubt that Blake gave much credence to the legend either, but using the image of the pure Lamb of God on England’s “mountains green” and “pleasant pastures” in contrast to images of the growing industrialisation of Blake’s time (“those dark Satanic mills”) made for a very effective poem. Of course industrialisation and pollution were important issues during Blake’s time - Charles Dickens frequently wrote about the negative effect that industry was having on the people and the environment. Dickens and Blake (& others too) thought it was disgraceful that the “powers that be” could allow such horrific damage to the countryside and people all in the name of progress. Little has changed evidently…
While it is certainly unlikely that Christ came to England - I personally think it is no more than a fanciful legend - it is nonetheless possible. We know for a fact that the Roman Empire eventually extended as far as Northern England, but even at the time of Christ there were strong trade links between Southern England and the rest of the Empire.
I doubt that Blake gave much credence to the legend either, but using the image of the pure Lamb of God on England’s “mountains green” and “pleasant pastures” in contrast to images of the growing industrialisation of Blake’s time (“those dark Satanic mills”) made for a very effective poem. Of course industrialisation and pollution were important issues during Blake’s time - Charles Dickens frequently wrote about the negative effect that industry was having on the people and the environment. Dickens and Blake (& others too) thought it was disgraceful that the “powers that be” could allow such horrific damage to the countryside and people all in the name of progress. Little has changed evidently…
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NotWorthy
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There is nothing but spurious evidence to Jesus traveling to England. Some people have taken this spurious evidence and given it wings.
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patrick457
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No.
1.) AFAIK, there are no explicit record of Jews in England before the Norman Conquest in 1066, though some evidence may point out that there were at least a few during Roman times. These Jews in Brittania were most likely either soldiers in oriental units of the Roman army, traders connected with the import of items such as pottery or glasswares, or slaves/captives sold into slavery. Still, these are not enough to support the idea that Joseph of Arimathea and the young Jesus went there.
2.) The origins of Christianity in Britain is shrouded in mystery; even today, scholars are still trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint when or how the religion came to Britain. We know that Britain had already received and accepted the Gospel in Tertullian’s lifetime, because he writes about it. Tertullian, however, does not mention who brought the faith to the island. This void in the history of England led many writers in the Middle Ages to theorize that this apostle or that bishop went to Britannia and preached the gospel there. In one version, Sts. Peter and Paul are also said to have preached in London (Westminster Abbey, dedicated to St. Peter, and St. Paul’s are said to have been built in commemoration of this event)! I’ll just quote Wikipedia here, who seems fairly reliable this time:
Legends about the arrival of Christianity in Britain abounded during the Middle Ages. Early writers do not connect Joseph to this activity, however. Tertullian (AD 155-222) wrote in Adversus Judaeos that Britain had already received and accepted the Gospel in his lifetime, writing of:
3.) The title “Dowry of Mary” actually only dates during the Middle Ages. There is a tradition that Edward the Confessor (1042 - 1066) was the first person to use the expression, but there is no historical documentation to support it; even today, exactly who popularized the term is still a matter of debate. In fact, the very first documentary evidence we have for the title was found in a painting which used to hang in the English College in Rome, which showed Richard II (1377 - 1399) and his consort kneeling before Our Lady and offering England to her - perhaps a reference to the king’s re-dedication of England to Mary as her dowry on the Sunday after Corpus Christi of 1381.
The expression was probably applied not because the Blessed Mother did some legendary visit in the islands, but because of the fervent devotion to Our Lady that existed in medieval England, as evidenced by the numerous shrines to her in many places, say, Walsingham, Lincoln, or Ipswich. This site explains the whole thing in more detail.
4.) Even if we suppose that the young Jesus and Joseph of A did go to Roman Britannia, why in the world would they do so? What is exactly their purpose? Is there something in Britannia Province that drew them?
1.) AFAIK, there are no explicit record of Jews in England before the Norman Conquest in 1066, though some evidence may point out that there were at least a few during Roman times. These Jews in Brittania were most likely either soldiers in oriental units of the Roman army, traders connected with the import of items such as pottery or glasswares, or slaves/captives sold into slavery. Still, these are not enough to support the idea that Joseph of Arimathea and the young Jesus went there.
2.) The origins of Christianity in Britain is shrouded in mystery; even today, scholars are still trying to p(name removed by moderator)oint when or how the religion came to Britain. We know that Britain had already received and accepted the Gospel in Tertullian’s lifetime, because he writes about it. Tertullian, however, does not mention who brought the faith to the island. This void in the history of England led many writers in the Middle Ages to theorize that this apostle or that bishop went to Britannia and preached the gospel there. In one version, Sts. Peter and Paul are also said to have preached in London (Westminster Abbey, dedicated to St. Peter, and St. Paul’s are said to have been built in commemoration of this event)! I’ll just quote Wikipedia here, who seems fairly reliable this time:
Legends about the arrival of Christianity in Britain abounded during the Middle Ages. Early writers do not connect Joseph to this activity, however. Tertullian (AD 155-222) wrote in Adversus Judaeos that Britain had already received and accepted the Gospel in his lifetime, writing of:
… all the limits of the Spains, and the diverse nations of the Gauls, and the haunts of the Britons – inaccessible to the Romans, but subjugated to Christ.
Tertullian does not say how the Gospel came to Britain before AD 222. However, Eusebius, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and one of the earliest and most comprehensive of church historians, wrote of Christ’s disciples in Demonstratio Evangelica, saying that “some have crossed the Ocean and reached the Isles of Britain.” Saint Hilary of Poitiers (AD 300-376) also wrote that the Apostles had built churches and that the Gospel had passed into Britain.
Hippolytus (AD 170-236), considered to have been one of the most learned Christian historians, puts names to the seventy disciples whom Jesus sent forth in Luke 10, includes Aristobulus of Romans 16:10 with Joseph, and states that he ended up becoming a pastor in Britain.
In none of these earliest references to Christianity’s arrival in Britain is Joseph of Arimathea mentioned. The first connection of Joseph of Arimathea with Britain is found in the 9th century Life of Mary Magdalene by Rabanus Maurus (AD 766-856), Archbishop of Mainz. Rabanus states that Joseph of Arimathea was sent to Britain, and he goes on to detail who travelled with him as far as France, claiming that he was accompanied by “the two Bethany sisters, Mary and Martha, Lazarus (who was raised from the dead), St. Eutropius, St. Salome, St. Cleon, St. Saturnius, St. Mary Magdalen, Marcella (the maid of the Bethany sisters), St. Maxium or Maximin, St. Martial, and St. Trophimus or Restitutus.”…
…The route he describes follows that of a supposed Phoenician trade route to Britain, as described by Diodorus Siculus.
William of Malmesbury mentions Joseph’s going to Britain in one passage of his Chronicle of the English Kings. He says Philip the Apostle sent twelve Christians to Britain, one of whom was his dearest friend, Joseph of Arimathea. William does not mention Joseph by name again, but he mentions the twelve evangelists generally. He claims that Glastonbury Abbey was founded by them; Glastonbury would be associated specifically with Joseph in later literature. Cardinal Caesar Baronius, the Vatican Librarian and historian (d. 1609), recorded this voyage by Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Marcella and others in his Annales Ecclesiatici, volume 1, section 35.
Tertullian does not say how the Gospel came to Britain before AD 222. However, Eusebius, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and one of the earliest and most comprehensive of church historians, wrote of Christ’s disciples in Demonstratio Evangelica, saying that “some have crossed the Ocean and reached the Isles of Britain.” Saint Hilary of Poitiers (AD 300-376) also wrote that the Apostles had built churches and that the Gospel had passed into Britain.
Hippolytus (AD 170-236), considered to have been one of the most learned Christian historians, puts names to the seventy disciples whom Jesus sent forth in Luke 10, includes Aristobulus of Romans 16:10 with Joseph, and states that he ended up becoming a pastor in Britain.
In none of these earliest references to Christianity’s arrival in Britain is Joseph of Arimathea mentioned. The first connection of Joseph of Arimathea with Britain is found in the 9th century Life of Mary Magdalene by Rabanus Maurus (AD 766-856), Archbishop of Mainz. Rabanus states that Joseph of Arimathea was sent to Britain, and he goes on to detail who travelled with him as far as France, claiming that he was accompanied by “the two Bethany sisters, Mary and Martha, Lazarus (who was raised from the dead), St. Eutropius, St. Salome, St. Cleon, St. Saturnius, St. Mary Magdalen, Marcella (the maid of the Bethany sisters), St. Maxium or Maximin, St. Martial, and St. Trophimus or Restitutus.”…
…The route he describes follows that of a supposed Phoenician trade route to Britain, as described by Diodorus Siculus.
William of Malmesbury mentions Joseph’s going to Britain in one passage of his Chronicle of the English Kings. He says Philip the Apostle sent twelve Christians to Britain, one of whom was his dearest friend, Joseph of Arimathea. William does not mention Joseph by name again, but he mentions the twelve evangelists generally. He claims that Glastonbury Abbey was founded by them; Glastonbury would be associated specifically with Joseph in later literature. Cardinal Caesar Baronius, the Vatican Librarian and historian (d. 1609), recorded this voyage by Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Marcella and others in his Annales Ecclesiatici, volume 1, section 35.
3.) The title “Dowry of Mary” actually only dates during the Middle Ages. There is a tradition that Edward the Confessor (1042 - 1066) was the first person to use the expression, but there is no historical documentation to support it; even today, exactly who popularized the term is still a matter of debate. In fact, the very first documentary evidence we have for the title was found in a painting which used to hang in the English College in Rome, which showed Richard II (1377 - 1399) and his consort kneeling before Our Lady and offering England to her - perhaps a reference to the king’s re-dedication of England to Mary as her dowry on the Sunday after Corpus Christi of 1381.
The expression was probably applied not because the Blessed Mother did some legendary visit in the islands, but because of the fervent devotion to Our Lady that existed in medieval England, as evidenced by the numerous shrines to her in many places, say, Walsingham, Lincoln, or Ipswich. This site explains the whole thing in more detail.
4.) Even if we suppose that the young Jesus and Joseph of A did go to Roman Britannia, why in the world would they do so? What is exactly their purpose? Is there something in Britannia Province that drew them?
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twinc
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thistle
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twinc
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thistle
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