The legitimacy of devotion to Mary

[Miriam1947]

The Pope on Co-redemptrix 
“Yet when asked, in a 2000 interview by Peter Seewald contained in the book God and the World, whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, Ratzinger’s response doesn’t look good.
He says that the title Co-redemptrix “departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53). He also says that “for matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (54). “

From Mark Shea’s blog:

Another title sometimes used to honor Mary is “Co-Redemptrix.” It’s not an “official title.” It’s just an expression of piety among some Catholics. And it affords a fairly typical example of the way in which the Church mulls things over for long time (usually centuries) before it makes any hard and fast decisions. At present, the Church doesn’t condemn the title, but it doesn’t encourage it either. A few years ago, Pope Benedict XVI (then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) was asked about the many petitions Rome has received asking that Mary be formally declared “Co-Redemptrix.” He replied:

“I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings. … A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”

So does this mean the Church condemns those who honor her by this title? No. It just means that Pope Benedict is (rightly) worried non-Catholics will not understand the “correct intention” behind the title. So the title remains, for the foreseeable future, something Catholics may use if it matters to them (providing they rightly understand what it means) but it’s not something one finds in the Church’s liturgy or dogma.

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/jittery-about-mary/#ixzz1djmLpVYa

 

[brb3]

Hi brb3,

I had posted the following in another topic:

Yes there is scriptural basis, and yes, it is traditional.

In Revelation 5:8,
“8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

We see here that the saints in heaven carry our prayers to the Lord and not only the saints, but angels also bring our prayers to the Lord.

Rev 8:3-4
3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

The angel Raphael brought prayers to heaven:

Tobit 12:12 (This is what the angel Raphael said)
“12 So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead.”

Jesus also warned us in Matthew 18:10, of the intercessary role of children’s guardian angels…

Matthew 18:10 "Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven.

We are also told by Jesus in Scripture that the departed are not dead: they are alive (in heaven).

Mark 12:26-27
26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

God hears the prayer of the righteous (and who is more righteous with a certainty than those in heaven!),

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

God does not listen to sinners:

John 9:31
31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will.

He does hear us when we are truly repentent, nonetheless, if our angels and our Saints in heaven carry our prayers to God in heaven, and we know they are righteous, then we are ensured that God will hear our prayers. They are interceding for us, especially when we sin, and in need of God’s “ear”.

That is why we ask Mary, Mother of our Lord, to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death” in the Hail Mary. (Which, btw, the first half of this prayer is directly from Scripture and what Elizabeth spoke to Mary, and the angel’s greeting to Mary in John 1.

Blessings, hope this was some help

CEM

---

P.S. Mary was the first one who instigated the first miracle by interceding at the Wedding Feast in Cana when she noticed that the Bride and Groom ran out of wine, and brought it up to Jesus:

John 2:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Mary continues to intercede for us as any good, loving, concerned Mother will do. She is also the finger that points to us and says “Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you”.

U make a strong case here. But, if we have guardian angels …
who present our needs before the Father, then why the need for Mary to do so ?

 

[brb3]

The Pope on Co-redemptrix 
“Yet when asked, in a 2000 interview by Peter Seewald contained in the book God and the World, whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, Ratzinger’s response doesn’t look good.
He says that the title Co-redemptrix “departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53). He also says that “for matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (54). “

From Mark Shea’s blog:

Another title sometimes used to honor Mary is “Co-Redemptrix.” It’s not an “official title.” It’s just an expression of piety among some Catholics. And it affords a fairly typical example of the way in which the Church mulls things over for long time (usually centuries) before it makes any hard and fast decisions. At present, the Church doesn’t condemn the title, but it doesn’t encourage it either. A few years ago, Pope Benedict XVI (then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) was asked about the many petitions Rome has received asking that Mary be formally declared “Co-Redemptrix.” He replied:

“I do not think there will be any compliance with this demand, which in the meantime is being supported by several million people, within the foreseeable future. The response of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings. … A correct intention is being expressed in the wrong way. For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language.”

So does this mean the Church condemns those who honor her by this title? No. It just means that Pope Benedict is (rightly) worried non-Catholics will not understand the “correct intention” behind the title. So the title remains, for the foreseeable future, something Catholics may use if it matters to them (providing they rightly understand what it means) but it’s not something one finds in the Church’s liturgy or dogma.

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/jittery-about-mary/#ixzz1djmLpVYa

Interesting, then Catholics shouldn’t be calling her by Mediatrix or Co-Redemptrix - Redeemer title !! She already has a plentitude of titles…more than Christ the Lord.
Thats excessive and worrisome…

 

[JM3]

+JMJ+

Just to be clear, what are these Marian dogmas that you are talking about?

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/mary/general-information/the-four-marian-dogmas/

 

[JM3]

Interesting, then Catholics shouldn’t be calling her by Mediatrix

CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

or Co-Redemptrix - Redeemer title !!

Co, in latin means with. Co-Redemptrix is “with the Redeemer”, not in place of or equal to.

She already has a plentitude of titles…more than Christ the Lord.
Thats excessive and worrisome…

Can you list them?

 

[brb3]

CCC 969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

Co, in latin means with. Co-Redemptrix is “with the Redeemer”, not in place of or equal to.

Can you list them?

Yes, I could …but, there are a hundred or more. Google Marian Titles & see for yourself.

But, the one most disturbing is the one ‘others’ attributed to Mary @ Lourdes---------------- “I AM the Immaculate Conception”.

Potentially Goddess or 4th Person of Trinity language !

 

[davidv]

Yes, I could …but, there are a hundred or more. Google Marian Titles & see for yourself.

But, the one most disturbing is the one ‘others’ attributed to Mary @ Lourdes---------------- “I AM the Immaculate Conception”.

Potentially Goddess or 4th Person of Trinity language !

What is disturbing about the Immaculate Conception title? It is a true statement. Her conception without the stain of original sin is truely immaculate.

 

[brb3]

What is disturbing about the Immaculate Conception title? It is a true statement. Her conception without the stain of original sin is truely immaculate.

I guess what disturbs is the wording. IF MARY had given us her title, we might of expected her to say ’ The Lord Conceived me Immaculate’ …but, to use GOD’s Name, I AM in her own Title, seems unlike what we might expect Mary to say !!

This is what makes me doubt the Lourdes apparition most especially.

 

[iloveangels]

As the first catholic to post, I must establish that no catholic has a devotion to Mary that is stronger then their devotion to the trinity. If a catholic does have a stronger devotion to Mary then to God the father, son and Holy Spirit then he/she is in serious error.

hi Kingtroll1,

Here’s my answer.

Saints in the Roman Catholic Church are venerated – not worshiped – as some mistakenly believe.

English language tends to fall short when it comes to the use of certain words. For example, we have one word for love, yet we use this word interchangeably to describe many different “feelings” of love. We say, “I love my parents”, or “I love chocolate” or even, “I love my spouse”, yet all these different phrases of love do not have the same definition.

Centuries ago, it may have been said that a saint gets “worship”, because the word came from the Old English weorthscipe, which simply meant “worthy of honour” or “worthy of respect”. That is why British speakers of English used to say “Your Worship” as a title of courtesy to people in a position of honour or power (such as Kings), and why we still address a judge as “Your Honour”.

Today, of course, worship means only our attitude to God Almighty, and it is to God alone whom we give all highest honour and supreme worship.

In Latin, which is richer than English in meanings of words, the worship owed to God alone is called LATRIA, a word that has its roots in the ancient Greek word, latreía, meaning the adoration that humans owe to the divine. It’s a matter of acknowledging your total dependence upon God. The respect that we owe to the saints is a totally different kind of attitude; it’s called DULIA, which means “appropriate” or “fitting and proper” as when you say that someone acts dutifully, or that a trial was handled with due process. In an everyday sense of the word,* dulia is our demeanor in court or meeting the President; it’s much more like what you’d call courtesy than what you’d call worship.* Dulia comes from the Greek word douleia, meaning “service” or “slave”. In Luke 1:38, 48 Mary’s description of herself as doule translates as “handmaiden” / “female slave” – (Slave more in the sense of “servant”).

For Mary, the Mother of God, we have a variation of dulia that is often misunderstood: HYPERDULIA. This is a higher kind of reverence that’s given only to Mary, who is considered first among the saints. Note that this is basically dulia, only higher. [The word hyper comes from the Greek: hypér “over”,” above”]. It is an entirely different thing from latria, and it can’t lessen the unique honour owed to God.

It’s never correct to say that the Church worships Mary or the Saints – it hasn’t been correct since people stopped speaking Old English, anyway. In recognition of Mary’s unique relationship with God, the Church gives to Mary a unique reverence notably higher than the respect given to other saints. Reverence means: a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration; honour.]

…clip…

CEM

Good explanation.

Mary brings us closer to God. The closer we are to Mary, the closer we are to God.

I don’t know how true this is exactly. Perhaps more for some than for others. I think if there’s any kind of true animosity towards Mary though, it’s a flag that there might be something amiss.

Is a child less close to his father the closer he is to his mother?

Some children are closer to their mothers and some are closer to their fathers. It’s a very individual sort of thing.

Mothers are gentle. A child goes to his mother to have her ask his father for a favor. The mother knows how to ask her husband in a way that softens his heart. If the child went directly to the father, he might refuse the request.

Sometimes this is true, sometimes not.

God gives Mary to us to bring us closer to Him. It’s a mystery. But God chose it to be so.

I have no doubt that this is true for some people. Mary is the greatest of the saints and that’s important for all of us, although each of us might have a slightly different sort of spirituality concerning this. Some people are very Marian in their prayer life and spiritual outlook, some more Biblical, some this way or that way. As long as no contradictions to what the Church teaches are present, it’s good.

 

[iloveangels]

What is disturbing about the Immaculate Conception title? It is a true statement. Her conception without the stain of original sin is truely immaculate.

This doesn’t really bother me much. The apparition was seen by some illiterate children and relayed by them. What they said probably only was a reflection of how they could have described it as children.

The Church says this particular apparition is worthy of belief for those who want to make it part of their spiritual outlook, but it’s not mandatory that anyone do so. It’s not part of the original deposit of faith.

I do have a problem with the idea that Mary might be divine or that Mary might be my Redeemer. She’s not. She was fully human, although conceived without sin. Christ was fully divine and fully human, and his death on the Cross is what redeemed us, and I think it’s important to be clear about that. On the other hand, Mary is the greatest of the Saints and a model for all of us.

 

[AspiringServant]

Yes, I could …but, there are a hundred or more. Google Marian Titles & see for yourself.

But, the one most disturbing is the one ‘others’ attributed to Mary @ Lourdes---------------- “I AM the Immaculate Conception”.

Potentially Goddess or 4th Person of Trinity language !

Mary’s identity as Immaculate Conception cannot be understood independent of Mary’s relationship with God. Therefore, Her sweet name, Immaculate Conception, is nicely described by St. Gregory Palamas:

“she only is the frontier between created and uncreated nature, and there is no man that shall come to God except he be truly illumined through her … It was through the Theotokos alone that the Lord came to us.”

It is clear therefore, that Mary reveals her name to her devotees. Let us listen to the Holy Saints :

St. Gregory Palamas:

“She alone stands between God and the whole human race, making God the son of man and men the sons of God. She is the source and root of the race of Liberty, her Body, the Temple of God is the saving Balsam for our race and She alone dwells on the frontier between created and uncreated natures, and those who know God recognize also Her in the habitation of the infinite”.

St. Theophanes the Graptos: “It cannot happenn that ayone, of Angels or of men, can come otherwise, in any way whatsoever to participation in the divine gifts flowing from what has been divinely assumed, from the Son of God save through his mother”.
The Theotokos is the Dispenser and Distributer of all the wondrous uncreated gifts of the divine Spirit.
As the fountain, the Beginning of Life, She receives wholly the hidden grace of the Spirit and amply distributes it and shares it with others, thus manifesting it.
All things are created for Her and are governed through Her. No one attains the fullness and the goal of life in Christ without Her cooperation or without the Spirit’s help.

St. John of Kronstadt: " She is the highest of all creatures, the Mediatrix for the whole human race.

St. Germanos: “No one is filled with the knowledge of God save through thee O Most Holy One.”
No one is saved except through thee, O Theotokos, no one is ransomed save through thee, Mother of God, no one secured a gift of mercy save through thee, who holds God,…in thee all peoples of the earth have obtained blessing, for there is not place where thy name is not held in honor".

St. Terasios:" She is the cause of Salvation of all mortals, the reconciler in the second regeneration with God, She is the restoration of the whole world, the expiation of Adam’s curse, the price of Eve’s debt and the one who free’s us from the curse pronounced against our first parent Eve. She is the Queen of the Universe, the Mediatress of all who are under heaven."
St. Joseph the Hymnographer: Through thee our earthly and corruptible nature is made heavenly !

St. Photios: " The Lord is with thee, delivering through thee the whole race from its ancient sorrow and curse!

St.John of Damaskos:“Thou hast brought together what had been seperated. To serve the Theotokos and to be Her courtier is the greatest honor one can possible possess, for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and to live under her commands is more than to govern.”
She has won for us all good things.Through Her, our reconciliation with God has been consecrated, and peace and grace have been bestowed.

St.Ambrose of Milan: Alone Mary has worked the Salvation of the world and conceived the Redemption of all.

St. Jerome: Through Eve death and THROUGH Mary life !

St. Irenaeus: For what the Virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.

St. Gregory Palamas: She cooperated and suffered with that divine emptying ( kenosis) and condescension in His incarnation, when he took the form of a servant. She is also rightly glorified and exalted together with him.She divinized the human race.

St. Andrew: Every creature is filled with thy Glory. All things have been made holy by the odor ot thy fragrance, through thee the occasion of sin has been abolished, the woes of the first parent have been transformed into joy.

St. Ignatios the Godbearer: " He who is devout to the Theotokos will certainly never be lost".

St. John of Kronstadt: The Mother of God is one flesh and blood, and one spirit with the Saviour, as his Mother. She gave him Her mostholy and mostpure flesh, nourishing him with her All holy Milk, carrying him in her arms, clothing him, caring inevery way for him in his infancy, kissiing him over and over again and caressing him. O Lord, who can describe the greatness of the Theotokos Virgiin ? She is one with God…

God sent forth His Son, made of a woman(Gal4,4). Christ was “made” of a woman and He took Her flesh so Christ’s saving flesh is the flesh from the Theotokos. I think this is also the reason why we after receiving communion say also thanksgiving prayers to the Theotokos. Because when we receive Christs All pure flesh we are also united with the Theotokos from whom Christ took the flesh.

“We prais thee the Mediatress for the Salvation of our race, o Virgin Theotokos, for thy Son and our God hath deigned to endure the Passion in the flesh taken from thee, and hath redeemed us from corruption, since he is the friend of man”.

"By giving Birth to the Giver of Life, O Virigin thou didst rescue Adam from sin and thou didst grant Eve joy instead of sorrow, for the God and Man who was incarnate of thee guided back to life those that had fallen away therefrom!.

St. Romanos the Melode:
“As the treasury of our Salvation, O All-hymned one, do thou lead forth from the pit and abyss of offenses them that hope in thee, for those that were guilty because of sin hast thou saved by giving birth to Salvation…”

“Unto thee I do ever ascribe my Salvation, in thee do I hope to be saved…”

 

[brb3]

It is clear therefore, that Mary reveals her name to her devotees. Let us listen to the Holy Saints :

St. Gregory Palamas:

“She alone stands between God and the whole human race, making God the son of man and men the sons of God. She is the source and root of the race of Liberty, her Body, the Temple of God is the saving Balsam for our race and She alone dwells on the frontier between created and uncreated natures, and those who know God recognize also Her in the habitation of the infinite”.

St. Theophanes the Graptos: “It cannot happenn that ayone, of Angels or of men, can come otherwise, in any way whatsoever to participation in the divine gifts flowing from what has been divinely assumed, from the Son of God save through his mother”.
The Theotokos is the Dispenser and Distributer of all the wondrous uncreated gifts of the divine Spirit.
As the fountain, the Beginning of Life, She receives wholly the hidden grace of the Spirit and amply distributes it and shares it with others, thus manifesting it.
All things are created for Her and are governed through Her. No one attains the fullness and the goal of life in Christ without Her cooperation or without the Spirit’s help.

St. John of Kronstadt: " She is the highest of all creatures, the Mediatrix for the whole human race.

St. Germanos: “No one is filled with the knowledge of God save through thee O Most Holy One.”
No one is saved except through thee, O Theotokos, no one is ransomed save through thee, Mother of God, no one secured a gift of mercy save through thee, who holds God,…in thee all peoples of the earth have obtained blessing, for there is not place where thy name is not held in honor".

St. Terasios:" She is the cause of Salvation of all mortals, the reconciler in the second regeneration with God, She is the restoration of the whole world, the expiation of Adam’s curse, the price of Eve’s debt and the one who free’s us from the curse pronounced against our first parent Eve. She is the Queen of the Universe, the Mediatress of all who are under heaven."
St. Joseph the Hymnographer: Through thee our earthly and corruptible nature is made heavenly !

St. Photios: " The Lord is with thee, delivering through thee the whole race from its ancient sorrow and curse!

St.John of Damaskos:“Thou hast brought together what had been seperated. To serve the Theotokos and to be Her courtier is the greatest honor one can possible possess, for to serve the Queen of Heaven is already to reign there, and to live under her commands is more than to govern.”
She has won for us all good things.Through Her, our reconciliation with God has been consecrated, and peace and grace have been bestowed.

St.Ambrose of Milan: Alone Mary has worked the Salvation of the world and conceived the Redemption of all.

St. Jerome: Through Eve death and THROUGH Mary life !

St. Irenaeus: For what the Virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the Virgin Mary set free through faith.

St. Gregory Palamas: She cooperated and suffered with that divine emptying ( kenosis) and condescension in His incarnation, when he took the form of a servant. She is also rightly glorified and exalted together with him.She divinized the human race.

St. Andrew: Every creature is filled with thy Glory. All things have been made holy by the odor ot thy fragrance, through thee the occasion of sin has been abolished, the woes of the first parent have been transformed into joy.

St. Ignatios the Godbearer: " He who is devout to the Theotokos will certainly never be lost".

St. John of Kronstadt: The Mother of God is one flesh and blood, and one spirit with the Saviour, as his Mother. She gave him Her mostholy and mostpure flesh, nourishing him with her All holy Milk, carrying him in her arms, clothing him, caring inevery way for him in his infancy, kissiing him over and over again and caressing him. O Lord, who can describe the greatness of the Theotokos Virgiin ? She is one with God…

God sent forth His Son, made of a woman(Gal4,4). Christ was “made” of a woman and He took Her flesh so Christ’s saving flesh is the flesh from the Theotokos. I think this is also the reason why we after receiving communion say also thanksgiving prayers to the Theotokos. Because when we receive Christs All pure flesh we are also united with the Theotokos from whom Christ took the flesh.

“We prais thee the Mediatress for the Salvation of our race, o Virgin Theotokos, for thy Son and our God hath deigned to endure the Passion in the flesh taken from thee, and hath redeemed us from corruption, since he is the friend of man”.

"By giving Birth to the Giver of Life, O Virigin thou didst rescue Adam from sin and thou didst grant Eve joy instead of sorrow, for the God and Man who was incarnate of thee guided back to life those that had fallen away therefrom!.

St. Romanos the Melode:
“As the treasury of our Salvation, O All-hymned one, do thou lead forth from the pit and abyss of offenses them that hope in thee, for those that were guilty because of sin hast thou saved by giving birth to Salvation…”

“Unto thee I do ever ascribe my Salvation, in thee do I hope to be saved…”

Please now …don’t over-reach with these ECF quotes. Most if them are emphasizing Christ, her Son, …not at all intended to make Mary more than she ever desired to be. And, that was ALWAYS IN THE SUPPORT ROLE for her Son.
Mary never desired the Stardom status some of you wish to raise her up to.

She doesn’t desire flowery titles or praise, …that is so unlike her humble nature.
I think the early Church would be shocked to hear what is being said on her role via all the talk / titles to Mary, and not to her Son and Lord.

 

[AspiringServant]

Please now …don’t over-reach with these ECF quotes. Most if them are emphasizing Christ, her Son, …not at all intended to make Mary more than she ever desired to be. And, that was ALWAYS IN THE SUPPORT ROLE for her Son.
Mary never desired the Stardom status some of you wish to raise her up to.

She doesn’t desire flowery titles or praise, …that is so unlike her humble nature.
I think the early Church would be shocked to hear what is being said on her role via all the talk / titles to Mary, and not to her Son and Lord.

Just curious… are you Catholic? Every quote I referenced is in accord with the Universal Church’s teaching on Mary. So I’m not sure what you mean by “over-reach”.

 

[brb3]

Just curious… are you Catholic? Every quote I referenced is in accord with the Universal Church’s teaching on Mary. So I’m not sure what you mean by “over-reach”.

I accept Mary as 1st among the Saints in heaven, but when I pray to her, its always in regards to her Son. I never use flowery titles and language for her, because I don’t think she desires our praise, but rather our praises of her Son. I do call her my Spiritual Mother, and ask her to be best Mom to me she possibly can, and recently I’ve inquired of her to open my eyes to any FULLER truths about her role in Salvation.

So, if I’m underestimating/ misunderstanding her role …I fully expect Christ or Mary to show me the fuller truth in due time.

 

[JM3]

I guess what disturbs is the wording. IF MARY had given us her title, we might of expected her to say ’ The Lord Conceived me Immaculate’ …but, to use GOD’s Name, I AM in her own Title, seems unlike what we might expect Mary to say !!

This is what makes me doubt the Lourdes apparition most especially.

So, we are not to use “I am” in any context, because it is God’s name.

Curious reasoning.

 

[iloveangels]

I accept Mary as 1st among the Saints in heaven, but when I pray to her, its always in regards to her Son. I never use flowery titles and language for her, because I don’t think she desires our praise, but rather our praises of her Son. I do call her my Spiritual Mother, and ask her to be best Mom to me she possibly can, and recently I’ve inquired of her to open my eyes to any FULLER truths about her role in Salvation.

So, if I’m underestimating/ misunderstanding her role …I fully expect Christ or Mary to show me the fuller truth in due time.

Actually what you’ve got written right here sounds about right, I think. Mary always points directly to Christ.

 

[iloveangels]

So, we are not to use “I am” in any context, because it is God’s name.

Curious reasoning.

Not really. Example: I am hungry because it’s suppertime. You can say that.

I know what someone is trying to say though. Only God is the Great “I Am” from Scripture. That’s using the words completely differently from the suppertime example, though.

 

[brb3]

So, we are not to use “I am” in any context, because it is God’s name.

Curious reasoning.

Not at all, but only in the context of giving ourselves a title/name.
…

Again, I don’t think Mary would make such an error …but, I do think Satan would love to use any occasion to smear Mary, or to cause confusion and have people focus on the person creation, and not the " I AM WHO I AM" CREATOR.

 

[LilyM]

Not at all, but only in the context of giving ourselves a title/name.
…

Again, I don’t think Mary would make such an error …but, I do think Satan would love to use any occasion to smear Mary, or to cause confusion and have people focus on the person creation, and not the " I AM WHO I AM" CREATOR.

So Barack Obama cannot say ‘I am President of the United States’?

Elizabeth II cannot say ‘I am Queen of Great Britain, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and at least half-a-dozen other countries’?

Benedict XVI cannot say ‘I am Pope, Pontifex Maximus, Bishop of Rome, successor of St Peter, spiritual leader of over a billion people’?

Of course they can. And of course Mary can call herself the Immaculate Conception. Firstly because so she is, per infallibly proclaimed Church teaching, and secondly because God made her so.

In scripture she was not scared in the slightest to declare all the great things God had done for her, nor to prophesy that all generations would call her blessed. For her and us to otherwise would be to fail to give God His due - He did these things for her for good reason, and there is nothing wrong and everything right in extolling Him by making all His works (including His creation of her as the Immaculate) known and published.

 

[R_C]

The Pope on Co-redemptrix 
“Yet when asked, in a 2000 interview by Peter Seewald contained in the book God and the World, whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, Ratzinger’s response doesn’t look good. …]

From Mark Shea’s blog:

Another title sometimes used to honor Mary is “Co-Redemptrix.” It’s not an “official title.” It’s just an expression of piety among some Catholics. And it affords a fairly typical example of the way in which the Church mulls things over for long time (usually centuries)…]

So does this mean the Church condemns those who honor her by this title? No. It just means that Pope Benedict is (rightly) worried non-Catholics will not understand the “correct intention” behind the title. So the title remains, for the foreseeable future, something Catholics may use if it matters to them (providing they rightly understand what it means) but it’s not something one finds in the Church’s liturgy or dogma.

Ok, again: that was not the Pope speaking, only a simple Cardinal Bishop. The same Cardinal who in a previous work had stated that the title “Mediatrix” and the title “Co-redemptrix” were “under the protection of Papal teaching” - thus bowing to the already exercised Petrine authority,* infallible in matters of faith*.

Here are just two official quotes - a water drop in the ocean:

“Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, **Adjutrix **and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from, nor adds anything to, the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.” (Lumen Gentium, n. 62.)

“The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. Now, this merciful office of hers, perhaps, appears in no other form of prayer so manifestly as it does in the Rosary. For in the Rosary all the part that Mary took as our co-Redemptress comes to us, as it were, set forth, and in such wise as though the facts were even then taking place; and this with much profit to our piety, whether in the contemplation of the succeeding sacred mysteries, or in the prayers which we speak and repeat with the lips.” (Pope Leo XIII: Iucunda Semper Expectatione, n. 2)

Let’s not start the argument again. I have yet to find someone who has the faith and the moral authority - ex. a canonized saint - to stand up and rightfully throw the first stone against Marian devotion or Marian devotees…I have yet to read one line from any canonized saint who speaks against devotion to Our Lady. And I am rather ignorant and haven’t read much - I admit it - but so far all I read is saints who even go as far as to advocate the necessity of true devotion to Our Lady.

The very assumption “we ought to direct our love to Jesus, not to Mary” - root of all critiques to true devotion to Our Lady - is flawed, (1) because it’s no “either/or” - God is well-pleased with both - and (2) because we forget that it’s absurd to make such a statement given that Jesus is God and thus love itself as well as the source and end of all love, while Mary is a creature, and the creature in which love itself was poured to its infinite fullness and became man.